Realism and the pistol. - Page 2

Jo6pak · November 17, 2013, 12:52 PM

I didn't really think anyone took that phrase to be gospel. It's just kind of a tongue-in-cheek saying.

Me thinks you may be taking things too literally

Glenn E. Meyer · November 17, 2013, 01:15 PM

Unfortunately, the gun world does lead to dichotomous, black and white thinking. New folks spout these kind of phrases as gospel.

How many cliches to we get posted all the time?

Oh, my old mommy who weighs 95 pounds and has arthritis wants a SD gun.

ANS: Twelve gauge pistol grip - ENUF SAID!

boondocker385 · November 17, 2013, 01:49 PM

I have had my rifle with me at a latrine....and while showering.... just saying.

But in the good old USA walking around with a rifle in the mean streets of anytown USA will get you proned out at a minimum....

RBid · November 17, 2013, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Unfortunately, the gun world does lead to dichotomous, black and white thinking. New folks spout these kind of phrases as gospel.

How many cliches to we get posted all the time?

Oh, my old mommy who weighs 95 pounds and has arthritis wants a SD gun.

ANS: Twelve gauge pistol grip - ENUF SAID!

Exactly.

I managed an LGS for about a year from the second half of 2012 until June 2013. During that time, I ran into misunderstood or abused phrases on a daily basis. Most of the time, they were used in an attempt to support some individual's broken idea of what defensive situations look like. Most commonly, they seemed designed to rationalize lazy and thoughtless ownership by the user.

Glenn E. Meyer · November 17, 2013, 08:24 PM

They are also used to posture and pretend you are part of the bad guy fraternity of steely eyed dealers of death (thanks Greg Hamilton for the phrase).

At a match yesterday - two LEOs were talking about mag placement on their duty belts. One wanted to carry one more beyond the usual two.

So a guy who is always about 18 points down on a stage and takes about a century to finish - says to them - What about a New York Reload?

Give me a break. How about an extra roscoe in your pants.

gotthegoods · November 19, 2013, 02:33 PM

I understand most civillian gunfights are at 1 - 2 arms length distances, which is uncomfortably much closer than the 7 yard LEO reported average gunfight distance.

Fight your way to your rifle / shotgun? As Hiker mentioned: in your Jason Statham / Xbox world - absolutely.

Since I live in reality, where exactly am I traveling and who am I interacting with to "need" my rifle?

Don't go stupid places with stupid people and do stupid things...

Jo6pak · November 19, 2013, 07:54 PM

It's true that in the real world, the pistol is most likely your only line of recourse against aggression.

But in a "SHTF, world falling down around me" scenario you'd better bet that my handgun is only a means of getting to a longarm.

Agreed, anything short of that, it's a gimmicky catch-phrase.

Of course, I also use the terms scattergun and wheelgun on occasion just because I enjoy colorful language.

RBid · November 19, 2013, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jo6pak

It's true that in the real world, the pistol is most likely your only line of recourse against aggression.

But in a "SHTF, world falling down around me" scenario you'd better bet that my handgun is only a means of getting to a longarm.

Actually, long guns have only been used for static location (home, business, etc) defense in the vast majority of modern examples of SHTF. People don't carry them around. Concealed handguns remain the best option in SHTF scenarios short of post apocalyptic chaos fantasy.

Evan Thomas · November 19, 2013, 11:03 PM

Just a reminder -- we don't do SHTF discussions here. Let's not go any farther down that road.

skoro · November 20, 2013, 08:19 AM

Quote:

"A pistol is used to fight your way to a rifle."

I've seen that quote often over the years.

It makes sense if one is in Iraq or Afghanistan and finds himself separated from his rifle by a short distance. Or if a LEO can get back to his rifle in the patrol car.

For the rest of us, it just doesn't apply.

**Frank Ettin** · November 20, 2013, 09:43 PM

Sigh....

The whole point of the cliche, IMHO, is to underscore the reality that a handgun may not be the best choice when (1) you have a choice; and (2) things are serious. Nothing more, and nothing less.

There's the story about the Sheriff who goes to the fancy garden party. The hostess goes up to him and says, " Sheriff, I see you're wearing your sidearm. Are you expecting trouble? At my party?"

The Sheriff replies, "Why no ma'am. If I were expecting trouble, I'd be carrying a rifle."

I don't see anything is to be gained by over-thinking this.

southjk · November 21, 2013, 10:05 AM

Quote:

The Sheriff replies, "Why no ma'am. If I were expecting trouble, I'd be carrying a rifle."

That's going into my rolodex of responses.

pilpens · November 21, 2013, 03:36 PM

It is a matter of perspective.

If your are in war, a rifle will most likely be a better firearm. So, a handgun is a secondary firearm. A person in war stuck with a handgun is/should be looking for the first available rifle to be more effective. In this case, "...fighting to a rifle ..." may apply.

I can imagine a scenario where an LEO may need/want to have a rifle instead of a handgun while in combat. In this case, "...fighting to a rifle ..." may apply.

If you are a civilian in a mall defending yourself from a person running amok, "...fighting to a rifle ..." does not apply. Unless you keep a rifle in a baby stroller.

I can also imagine being attack by zombies and I am running out of handgun ammo

.

Buzzcook · November 21, 2013, 05:46 PM

The OP is indulging in a "straw Man" argument.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

I seriously doubt that people who use that phrase are suggesting that they always have a rifle near by which they can get to in a fire fight. I also doubt that they are implying that a handgun is a negligible tool for self defense.

I'd like to suggest that it is a humorous statement reflecting the desire to have the biggest weapon possible should the deed arise.

jglsprings · November 23, 2013, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Buzzcook

The OP is indulging in a "straw Man" argument.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

I seriously doubt that people who use that phrase are suggesting that they always have a rifle near by which they can get to in a fire fight. I also doubt that they are implying that a handgun is a negligible tool for self defense.

I'd like to suggest that it is a humorous statement reflecting the desire to have the biggest weapon possible should the deed arise.

Buzzcook, I could not agree more.

Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan

Saavik: Humor. It is a difficult concept. It is not logical.

Kirk: We learn by doing.

Humor is not often found on the internet or discussion forums. Because most people aren't funny.

jglsprings

**Frank Ettin** · November 23, 2013, 08:06 PM

Sigh.

Well I for one have had enough of this one.

November 17, 2013, 12:52 PM	#26
Jo6pak Senior Member Join Date: August 5, 2010 Location: West Coast...of WI Posts: 1,663	I didn't really think anyone took that phrase to be gospel. It's just kind of a tongue-in-cheek saying. Me thinks you may be taking things too literally __________________ NRA Life Member, SAF contributor.

November 17, 2013, 01:15 PM	#27
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Unfortunately, the gun world does lead to dichotomous, black and white thinking. New folks spout these kind of phrases as gospel. How many cliches to we get posted all the time? Oh, my old mommy who weighs 95 pounds and has arthritis wants a SD gun. ANS: Twelve gauge pistol grip - ENUF SAID! __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

November 17, 2013, 08:24 PM	#30
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	They are also used to posture and pretend you are part of the bad guy fraternity of steely eyed dealers of death (thanks Greg Hamilton for the phrase). At a match yesterday - two LEOs were talking about mag placement on their duty belts. One wanted to carry one more beyond the usual two. So a guy who is always about 18 points down on a stage and takes about a century to finish - says to them - What about a New York Reload? Give me a break. How about an extra roscoe in your pants. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

November 19, 2013, 07:54 PM	#32
Jo6pak Senior Member Join Date: August 5, 2010 Location: West Coast...of WI Posts: 1,663	It's true that in the real world, the pistol is most likely your only line of recourse against aggression. But in a "SHTF, world falling down around me" scenario you'd better bet that my handgun is only a means of getting to a longarm. Agreed, anything short of that, it's a gimmicky catch-phrase. Of course, I also use the terms scattergun and wheelgun on occasion just because I enjoy colorful language. __________________ NRA Life Member, SAF contributor.

November 19, 2013, 11:03 PM	#34
Evan Thomas Senior Member Join Date: July 7, 2008 Location: Upper midwest Posts: 5,631	Just a reminder -- we don't do SHTF discussions here. Let's not go any farther down that road. __________________ Never let anything mechanical know you're in a hurry.

November 17, 2013, 01:49 PM	#28
boondocker385 Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 2013 Posts: 640	I have had my rifle with me at a latrine....and while showering.... just saying. But in the good old USA walking around with a rifle in the mean streets of anytown USA will get you proned out at a minimum....

November 19, 2013, 02:33 PM	#31
gotthegoods Member Join Date: September 11, 2011 Posts: 65	I understand most civillian gunfights are at 1 - 2 arms length distances, which is uncomfortably much closer than the 7 yard LEO reported average gunfight distance. Fight your way to your rifle / shotgun? As Hiker mentioned: in your Jason Statham / Xbox world - absolutely. Since I live in reality, where exactly am I traveling and who am I interacting with to "need" my rifle? Don't go stupid places with stupid people and do stupid things...

November 20, 2013, 09:43 PM	#36
Frank Ettin Staff Join Date: November 23, 2005 Location: California - San Francisco Posts: 9,471	Sigh.... The whole point of the cliche, IMHO, is to underscore the reality that a handgun may not be the best choice when (1) you have a choice; and (2) things are serious. Nothing more, and nothing less. There's the story about the Sheriff who goes to the fancy garden party. The hostess goes up to him and says, " Sheriff, I see you're wearing your sidearm. Are you expecting trouble? At my party?" The Sheriff replies, "Why no ma'am. If I were expecting trouble, I'd be carrying a rifle." I don't see anything is to be gained by over-thinking this. __________________ "It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper

November 21, 2013, 03:36 PM	#38
pilpens Senior Member Join Date: April 24, 2008 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,696	It is a matter of perspective. If your are in war, a rifle will most likely be a better firearm. So, a handgun is a secondary firearm. A person in war stuck with a handgun is/should be looking for the first available rifle to be more effective. In this case, "...fighting to a rifle ..." may apply. I can imagine a scenario where an LEO may need/want to have a rifle instead of a handgun while in combat. In this case, "...fighting to a rifle ..." may apply. If you are a civilian in a mall defending yourself from a person running amok, "...fighting to a rifle ..." does not apply. Unless you keep a rifle in a baby stroller. I can also imagine being attack by zombies and I am running out of handgun ammo.

November 21, 2013, 05:46 PM	#39
Buzzcook Senior Member Join Date: November 29, 2007 Location: Everett, WA Posts: 6,126	The OP is indulging in a "straw Man" argument. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man I seriously doubt that people who use that phrase are suggesting that they always have a rifle near by which they can get to in a fire fight. I also doubt that they are implying that a handgun is a negligible tool for self defense. I'd like to suggest that it is a humorous statement reflecting the desire to have the biggest weapon possible should the deed arise.

November 23, 2013, 08:06 PM	#41
Frank Ettin Staff Join Date: November 23, 2005 Location: California - San Francisco Posts: 9,471	Sigh. Well I for one have had enough of this one. __________________ "It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper

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