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Old April 18, 2014, 08:29 PM   #26
veamon
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Quote:
If people don't want firearms on their private property, then that should be respected. If I did not want someone in my house with a firearm I would expect visitors to respect that and if they did not respect my wishes they would not be welcome.
That's fine for your home, but I doubt you are in a public place where shootings can take place at any time.
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Old April 18, 2014, 09:21 PM   #27
Wyosmith
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ok once more

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Old April 18, 2014, 09:38 PM   #28
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyosmith
...Corporation n.
an organization formed with state governmental approval to act as an artificial person to carry on business (or other activities),operating within the laws of the state, which can sue or be sued,...
And as I wrote in post 25:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Ettin
...Today each State has certain rules and procedures for the formation of such arrangements, as well as certain rules regarding their internal governance, how they conduct business and how they pay taxes. Then again, there are rules that apply to sole proprietorships also....
That doesn't make a corporation (or a partnership, limited partnership, limited liability company, etc.) a "Creation of the State" as you had put it. Nor does correct the various mistakes of law you made in your prior post, and that I pointed out in post 25.

I'm not sure why you think you understand the law in this regard or how you might have learned what you think you know.

On the other hand, I am an actual lawyer, now retired after over thirty years of practice, with considerable experience in corporate law and business law. I've done this for a living for real stakes for real clients in the real world. I've done this under the scrutiny of judges, regulators and other lawyers -- some of whom are our adversaries or competitors.

So please let's not side track this thread with by putting me in the position of having to correct misinformation about basic law.
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Old April 18, 2014, 10:02 PM   #29
Tom Servo
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It’s worth the two bucks just to know I’ve screwed the anti gun people out of another one of there efforts to ban guns.
Are you sure you've really done that, though?

Many of those signs come from corporate lawyers who've warned their employers that allowing guns equates to potential liability. The political battle over that was fought three decades ago, and to some extent, we lost. That was when the VPC and other involved parties convinced legal and HR departments that we were all simmering crockpots of potential violence.

The reason most employers don't allow their employees to carry stems from that perception. This isn't a recent push; it's an ingrained response to old propaganda. The recent Starbuck's debacle shows that our side is notoriously tone-deaf when it comes to fighting the perception battle.
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Old April 18, 2014, 10:25 PM   #30
Mike Irwin
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"Remember the Constitution for the united States of America was not accepted by any state until the Bill of Rights was added and accepted."

Say what, now?

Or, should I say, that is absolutely 100% WRONG.

The Constitution was ratified by 11 of the states, and thus became the guiding document of government for the United States, on March 4, 1789.

The legislative articles that, in total, comprise the Bill of Rights were adopted in the 1st Congress (remember, the 1st Congress was created by ratification of the Constitution) by the House of Representatives in late August 1789, and sent to the states for ratification.

Ratification of 10 of the original 12 proposed amendments (the original amendments 1 and 2 were not ratified, so 3 became 1, and 4 became 2 in the final version) didn't happen until December 15, 1791, or nearly THREE YEARS AFTER the Constitution became the guiding law of the United States.

The Bill of Rights are amendments to the Constitution. They were not part of the original Constitution, but were added in a series of agreements between the Federalists and the Anti-Federalists.

In order to gain Anti-Federalist support for the Constitution, the Federalists had to agree to amend the document once it was ratified.
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Old April 18, 2014, 11:38 PM   #31
Andy Blozinski
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An earlier poster made a connection between a no blacks sign and a no guns sign. Not the same.
Businesses that are not private memberships, but open to the public are often required by state level laws to serve all customers from the public without discrimination under the same circumstances. Circumstances is the key word. "No shirt, no shoes, no service" gets applied to everyone as a circumstance. "No Italians" is not a circumstance limitation.
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Old April 19, 2014, 08:43 AM   #32
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Blozinski
An earlier poster made a connection between a no blacks sign and a no guns sign. Not the same.
Businesses that are not private memberships, but open to the public are often required by state level laws to serve all customers from the public without discrimination under the same circumstances. Circumstances is the key word. "No shirt, no shoes, no service" gets applied to everyone as a circumstance. "No Italians" is not a circumstance limitation.
You're right that "no guns" and "no blacks" are not the same. You're wrong in the reasoning.

I don't know the laws of every state, but a good many (I suspect all) do not require as you say. Have you ever seen a sign in a business that says "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone, at anytime."?

Generally speaking, the ONLY people that a business is not allowed to discriminate against are PROTECTED CLASSES that are specifically spelled out by The Civil Rights Act or other federal law or by some similar state law.

It is completely legal (in general, specific state laws may apply), for a business to refuse to serve people with purple hair, or nose rings, or over 6' tall, or hair below their shoulders, or people with blonde hair, or people carrying guns, or people carrying books, or people with iPhones, etc, etc.

None of those things are Protected Classes and all may be discriminated against at will. The business owner will likely find themselves in hot water and will likely soon not BE a business owner, but that's another one of our fundamental principles.... capitalism.
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Old April 19, 2014, 09:14 AM   #33
jnichols2
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I see a lot of these threads. They usually get blown up into legal opinions and "what if".

My feeling isn't a matter of law, it's respect for another's property.

A store owner invites the public in. The public doesn't own or control his property. They are invited guests. A good guest respects the host's wishes about these things. I insist my guests respect my wishes, whether yes or no.

It's not even a matter of "rights". Without mutual respect of each other's rights, none of us have any rights. Your right to swing your fist ends at my nose.

Try reading some of these signs. The one I saw yesterday said "No Unlicensed Firearms Allowed". That's code for "Licensed Firearms Are OK". Those signs are meant for the gangbangers, not licensed carriers.
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Old April 19, 2014, 10:36 AM   #34
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jnichols2
The one I saw yesterday said "No Unlicensed Firearms Allowed". That's code for "Licensed Firearms Are OK". Those signs are meant for the gangbangers, not licensed carriers.
I agree that is the intent but I find them to be rather... stupid. The "gangbangers" don't care anyway, which should be obvious to everybody. What good does that sign do? None.

A much better sign would say something like "We welcome customers who carry firearms for personal protection." or some variation thereof. That tells the gangbangers that anyone inside might be armed and sends a fairly decent "political" message as well, without trying to tell someone who doesn't give a damn anyway that they can't bring their illegal gun inside to rob you.
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Old April 19, 2014, 11:51 AM   #35
zxcvbob
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Quote:
A much better sign would say something like "We welcome customers who carry firearms for personal protection." or some variation thereof. That tells the gangbangers that anyone inside might be armed and sends a fairly decent "political" message as well, without trying to tell someone who doesn't give a damn anyway that they can't bring their illegal gun inside to rob you.
That sounds like a good way to lose their business license in some cities. Endless health inspections finding imaginary violations, rumors getting started about rats in the kitchen, bad reviews in the local paper, etc. A local bicycle shop has a sign like that, though...

A related story: Wife put a sign in our yard supporting a state "defense of marriage" amendment. Not only did someone steal the sign at night, the next day they filed a complaint with the police about our nuisance barking dogs. The police wouldn't tell us who filed it. (we weren't home at the time, but the dogs were inside the house with the windows closed and the curtains closed) I will leave it to you to figure out how it relates.
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Old April 19, 2014, 02:45 PM   #36
arizonaopa
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Arizona viewpoint

I guess that the situation differs in every state. Here in AZ, CCW holders can even go into places that get most of their income from alcohol sales, they just can't imbibe. Non-CCW holders can still carry concealed but cannot go into alcohol establishments.

As far as signs, the AZ statutes have specific requirements that a sign must have in order to be legally binding. When I come across a business with a no gun sign that does not meet the requirements, I leave my gun secured in my vehicle, enter the establishment and speak with the owner. I tell the owner that they have lost my business because of their sign and tell them that other gun owners will probably not shop with them. I then inform them that their signs do not meet state requirements and point out the site they need to go to in order to get the correct signs. Although I do not agree with their policies, if they are going to have them, I want them to be in compliance with the law.
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