Odd German Pistol

682bear · September 12, 2014, 02:17 PM

I would like to find out any information at all about this pistol... including what any or all of the proofmarks mean. I am trying to determine approximately how old it is especially...

It is a Krieghoff single shot, I believe it is a .22 short, and has a single set trigger...

The breech door and chamber

On the bottom of the barrel, an anchor

Marked on right side of receiver a U and B with crowns over them

Marked on left side of barrel `0.05 grNGPM 71`

Marked `Krieghoff Suhl`

Has anyone ever seen anything like this or have any useful info about it?

Thanks -Bear

highpower3006 · September 12, 2014, 03:16 PM

I haven't seen that exact pistol before, but it reminds me of a Flobert parlor gun. They were popular back in the late 19th century for indoor parlor shooting.

Jim Watson · September 12, 2014, 03:46 PM

You show a type 2 (extractor) Flobert parlour gun.
The anchor is a long time Krieghoff touchmark.

(Crown) B and (crown) U are standard German proofmarks.

Load markings on the side of the barrel are for 0.05 gram (0.77 grain) of a particular powder and a 1 gram (15 grain) ball. It might be 6mm Flobert or .22 BB Cap.

There is no breechblock but the hammer and nothing holding it down but the mainspring. The gun is marginally strong enough for a CB cap and nothing more.

James K · September 12, 2014, 08:40 PM

No, that one has a breechblock with a firing pin, and it is locked by the hammer coming under it like the Remington rolling block. Those are marginally stronger and safer than the true Flobert, which is "locked" only by the mass of the breechblock.

The crown/B is the proofmark indicating that the gun was proved in the finished state (as opposed to being proved "in the white" before finishing; the crown/U is the final and definitive proof. The crown/U was dropped in 1939, so the gun dates before that, probably even before WWI. If .22 BB caps fit, they would be safe enough for use in that gun. If not, the gun is probably 4mm and I am not sure how available that ammo is.

Jim

682bear · September 12, 2014, 09:08 PM

Highpower- I had never seen or heard of a parlour gun before, so I had no idea what that was... you are correct, thanks!

Jim Watson- Thanks for explaining the notations about the loads... that makes sense, now...

James K- you are correct... it has a breechblock with a VERY stout spring and the hammer locks it... it is definately a .22 caliber, I assumed a .22 short, a .22LR will fit in the barrel, but I know better than to try firing one in it. Thanks for the info...

Has anyone ever heard of Krieghoff making parlour guns? The reason I ask is because Krieghoff doesn't have any records of ever having made these...

-Bear

James K · September 12, 2014, 09:15 PM

A lot of German companies and small gunsmiths made those "parlor" guns. Krieghoff has been around since the 1880's and what with WWII and losing their Suhl factory and records to the Communists, I would be a bit astonished if they did know what they made a century ago.

FWIW, 0.5 grams equals about 7.7 grains, more than the nominal black powder load for the .22 Long or Long Rifle, so your chamber may be telling you the truth. We tend to call all those "parlor guns" and assume they were made for 4mm but in fact many were for gallery practice and fired .22 Long, .22 Long Rifle or even center fire cartridges. Still, in deference to the age and type of action, I would not want to fire anything more powerful than standard .22 Short, and even that in moderation.

Jim

Jim Watson · September 12, 2014, 09:29 PM

Dang, how did I miss the "rolling block" type Flobert.

Still not stout enough for any modern load but a CB cap.

I once saw a picture of Msr Flobert's personal snub nose pocket pistol. Very fancy but a plain Flobert action. How many punks could you fight off with a single shot .22?

James K · September 12, 2014, 09:36 PM

My dad had what he called a "Flobert" rifle. One day, he rested the barrel on his foot and managed to shoot himself. The bullet lodged in the joint of his big toe. The doctor managed to get the bullet out, with a stiff shot of whiskey as an anesthetic. The toe hurt him in wet weather for the rest of his life.

I never saw the rifle; he had gotten rid of it long before I was born, probably with few regrets. He also gave up drinking around the same time, though I don't know if the "operation" had anything to do with that or not.

Jim

Blacktimberwolf · September 13, 2014, 09:23 AM

This is a so called " Zimmerpistole" chambered in 6 mm Flobert. Before the WW1 IT was usual to practice indoorshooting with special built guns, this is one of them.

James K · September 13, 2014, 03:57 PM

Yes, indoor pistol shooting, in one's home, was common in Germany and other countries, but the same style of pistol was used for gallery shooting and outdoor practice as well, and often in larger caliber center fire cartridges. So it is sometimes a mistake to simply look at a pistol and call it a "parlor" pistol without knowing more about it.

Jim

Jim Watson · September 13, 2014, 06:11 PM

The niche in indoor shooting is now largely filled with air guns instead of the several low powered firearms of past times.

James K · September 13, 2014, 11:46 PM

True, but mainly because of the rigid handgun laws.

Jim

JeffK · September 14, 2014, 01:46 AM

The photo shows 0,05gr, which is the European way of writing 0.05 grams. This is 0.77 grains, not 7.7 grains. .22 short is 4 grains of black powder and a 30 grain bullet, so this appears intended to fire something smaller (15.4 grains) with less than a quarter the powder of a .22 short. What it can actually safely fire, I have no idea, but that's what the markings are.

James K · September 15, 2014, 04:26 PM

Hi, JeffK,

You are correct; I slipped a decimal point. I find .77 grains a bit hard to believe, but that is what it works out to.

Jim

682bear · September 15, 2014, 11:28 PM

Thanks for the information, I really appreciate it!

-Bear

September 12, 2014, 02:17 PM	#1
682bear Member Join Date: February 27, 2012 Location: Deep south Posts: 22	Odd German Pistol I would like to find out any information at all about this pistol... including what any or all of the proofmarks mean. I am trying to determine approximately how old it is especially... It is a Krieghoff single shot, I believe it is a .22 short, and has a single set trigger... The breech door and chamber On the bottom of the barrel, an anchor Marked on right side of receiver a U and B with crowns over them Marked on left side of barrel `0.05 grNGPM 71` Marked `Krieghoff Suhl` Has anyone ever seen anything like this or have any useful info about it? Thanks -Bear

September 12, 2014, 09:15 PM	#6
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	A lot of German companies and small gunsmiths made those "parlor" guns. Krieghoff has been around since the 1880's and what with WWII and losing their Suhl factory and records to the Communists, I would be a bit astonished if they did know what they made a century ago. FWIW, 0.5 grams equals about 7.7 grains, more than the nominal black powder load for the .22 Long or Long Rifle, so your chamber may be telling you the truth. We tend to call all those "parlor guns" and assume they were made for 4mm but in fact many were for gallery practice and fired .22 Long, .22 Long Rifle or even center fire cartridges. Still, in deference to the age and type of action, I would not want to fire anything more powerful than standard .22 Short, and even that in moderation. Jim Last edited by James K; September 12, 2014 at 09:31 PM.

September 12, 2014, 03:16 PM	#2
highpower3006 Senior Member Join Date: July 30, 2011 Location: Savannah TN Posts: 1,220	I haven't seen that exact pistol before, but it reminds me of a Flobert parlor gun. They were popular back in the late 19th century for indoor parlor shooting.

September 12, 2014, 03:46 PM	#3
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	You show a type 2 (extractor) Flobert parlour gun. The anchor is a long time Krieghoff touchmark. (Crown) B and (crown) U are standard German proofmarks. Load markings on the side of the barrel are for 0.05 gram (0.77 grain) of a particular powder and a 1 gram (15 grain) ball. It might be 6mm Flobert or .22 BB Cap. There is no breechblock but the hammer and nothing holding it down but the mainspring. The gun is marginally strong enough for a CB cap and nothing more.

September 12, 2014, 08:40 PM	#4
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	No, that one has a breechblock with a firing pin, and it is locked by the hammer coming under it like the Remington rolling block. Those are marginally stronger and safer than the true Flobert, which is "locked" only by the mass of the breechblock. The crown/B is the proofmark indicating that the gun was proved in the finished state (as opposed to being proved "in the white" before finishing; the crown/U is the final and definitive proof. The crown/U was dropped in 1939, so the gun dates before that, probably even before WWI. If .22 BB caps fit, they would be safe enough for use in that gun. If not, the gun is probably 4mm and I am not sure how available that ammo is. Jim

September 12, 2014, 09:08 PM	#5
682bear Member Join Date: February 27, 2012 Location: Deep south Posts: 22	Highpower- I had never seen or heard of a parlour gun before, so I had no idea what that was... you are correct, thanks! Jim Watson- Thanks for explaining the notations about the loads... that makes sense, now... James K- you are correct... it has a breechblock with a VERY stout spring and the hammer locks it... it is definately a .22 caliber, I assumed a .22 short, a .22LR will fit in the barrel, but I know better than to try firing one in it. Thanks for the info... Has anyone ever heard of Krieghoff making parlour guns? The reason I ask is because Krieghoff doesn't have any records of ever having made these... -Bear

September 12, 2014, 09:29 PM	#7
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	Dang, how did I miss the "rolling block" type Flobert. Still not stout enough for any modern load but a CB cap. I once saw a picture of Msr Flobert's personal snub nose pocket pistol. Very fancy but a plain Flobert action. How many punks could you fight off with a single shot .22?

September 12, 2014, 09:36 PM	#8
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	My dad had what he called a "Flobert" rifle. One day, he rested the barrel on his foot and managed to shoot himself. The bullet lodged in the joint of his big toe. The doctor managed to get the bullet out, with a stiff shot of whiskey as an anesthetic. The toe hurt him in wet weather for the rest of his life. I never saw the rifle; he had gotten rid of it long before I was born, probably with few regrets. He also gave up drinking around the same time, though I don't know if the "operation" had anything to do with that or not. Jim

September 13, 2014, 09:23 AM	#9
Blacktimberwolf Junior member Join Date: August 14, 2013 Posts: 74	This is a so called " Zimmerpistole" chambered in 6 mm Flobert. Before the WW1 IT was usual to practice indoorshooting with special built guns, this is one of them.

September 13, 2014, 03:57 PM	#10
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Yes, indoor pistol shooting, in one's home, was common in Germany and other countries, but the same style of pistol was used for gallery shooting and outdoor practice as well, and often in larger caliber center fire cartridges. So it is sometimes a mistake to simply look at a pistol and call it a "parlor" pistol without knowing more about it. Jim

September 13, 2014, 06:11 PM	#11
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	The niche in indoor shooting is now largely filled with air guns instead of the several low powered firearms of past times.

September 13, 2014, 11:46 PM	#12
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	True, but mainly because of the rigid handgun laws. Jim

September 14, 2014, 01:46 AM	#13
JeffK Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2014 Posts: 206	The photo shows 0,05gr, which is the European way of writing 0.05 grams. This is 0.77 grains, not 7.7 grains. .22 short is 4 grains of black powder and a 30 grain bullet, so this appears intended to fire something smaller (15.4 grains) with less than a quarter the powder of a .22 short. What it can actually safely fire, I have no idea, but that's what the markings are.

September 15, 2014, 04:26 PM	#14
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Hi, JeffK, You are correct; I slipped a decimal point. I find .77 grains a bit hard to believe, but that is what it works out to. Jim

September 15, 2014, 11:28 PM	#15
682bear Member Join Date: February 27, 2012 Location: Deep south Posts: 22	Thanks for the information, I really appreciate it! -Bear