The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The North Corral > Black Powder and Cowboy Action Shooting

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old January 16, 2011, 01:03 PM   #1
strong45side
Member
 
Join Date: January 16, 2011
Posts: 40
cowboy loads?

I was curious what makes say a normal 45 load different from a cowboy load? Does it have something to do with a slower fps to simulate old black powder loads?
strong45side is offline  
Old January 16, 2011, 07:09 PM   #2
darwins
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 18, 2008
Posts: 100
I don't know that I know the definitive answer to your question but I assume cowboy loads are loaded to a lesser pressure for one or both of two reasons:
1) less chance of damaging the targets
2) allows for better control
darwins is offline  
Old January 16, 2011, 07:37 PM   #3
Hawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 16,175
It's to keep pressures on a par with bp loads.
Hawg is offline  
Old January 16, 2011, 10:58 PM   #4
Newton24b
Junior member
 
Join Date: February 10, 2009
Posts: 974
cowboy loads are simply a load that will get a bullet of a given weight out of the barrel of a handgun or rifle and have it hit the target and make it bounce.

and when you compare the ballistics of cowboy ammunition, you NEED a lever gun to get the velocity and energy the normal HANDGUN load developed in 1880.
Newton24b is offline  
Old January 16, 2011, 11:00 PM   #5
B.L.E.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2008
Location: Somewhere on the Southern shore of Lake Travis, TX
Posts: 2,603
If the box says cowboy action loads, it is loaded with lead, not jacketed bullets, as per SASS rules.
Also, they are loaded mild because cowboy action shooting is a shooting race where you shoot a bunch of targets against the clock and mild loads just let you shoot faster.
B.L.E. is offline  
Old January 17, 2011, 12:56 AM   #6
salvadore
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 1, 2007
Location: Idaho
Posts: 2,282
Quote:
I was curious what makes say a normal 45 load different from a cowboy load? Does it have something to do with a slower fps to simulate old black powder loads?
If the youtube vids I've seen are typical, I'd say black powder loads of yore were a lot more powerful than the squibs I was seeing in the videos.

I know there are a lot of cowboys in here, and I don't want to sound contentious, but that game is in major need of a power factor.
salvadore is offline  
Old January 17, 2011, 07:21 AM   #7
45-70 Chevron
Junior Member
 
Join Date: January 13, 2011
Location: Snowflake Arizona
Posts: 7
Cowboy action

I shoot cowboy action. There are reasons for the light loads.
1. The steel pistol targets are 21 feet from the shooter. Less power less splatter.
2. SASS rules limit pistol loads to 1000 FPS or less.
3. Pistol caliber lever action rifle loads are limited to 1400 FPS or less and no GC's.
Local clubs don't always follow these rules, but if you shoot in a sass shoot you will be disqualified if you don't follow sass rules.
Some shooters shoot loads as slow as 400 to 500 fps with very light for caliber cast boolits ie. 180 gr. 45 colt. These loads hardly cause any recoil at all. When I shoot I like to feel the gun recoil most of my loads for my 45 are running around 700 FPS. with a 230 gr. RN bullet
I have been hit by lead splatter several times, once over the right eye about 2" above the eye. I bled quite a bit. I had my safety glasses on but had just taken my cowboy hat off to wipe the sweat off my forehead and bam!! it felt like I had been hit with a hammer not real hard but it hurt pretty bad.

Last edited by 45-70 Chevron; January 17, 2011 at 07:29 AM.
45-70 Chevron is offline  
Old January 17, 2011, 12:48 PM   #8
Noz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 25, 2009
Posts: 643
"Cowboy" loads are subject to a power factor but it is a minimum number. Some of the less knowledgeable shooters were shooting loads so light to be on the edge of disaster. Since the power factor was initiated, I have never heard of any one being challenged and required to prove his ammo met the criteria.
Most of the very fast shooters have discovered that some recoil is required for mental feedback to allow them to shoot at their maximum speed. Too low and there is a "did I or didn't I" lag between shots.
Power is more frequently encountered on the upper end when shooters are asked to slow their loads down because of potential target damage and excessive spatter(spatter is usually encountered from poorly set targets or damaged targets).
Noz is offline  
Old January 17, 2011, 11:55 PM   #9
B.L.E.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2008
Location: Somewhere on the Southern shore of Lake Travis, TX
Posts: 2,603
I have seen loads so mild that you could literally watch the bullets fly through the air towards the targets.

Mouse fart loads shot by competitors refered to as "gamers" have been a major point of controversy in SASS, there seems to be an article about it in every issue of their newsletter.

My solution, encourage clubs to use knockdown targets exclusively. If it didn't fall down, you didn't hit it or you didn't hit it hard enough.
B.L.E. is offline  
Old January 18, 2011, 12:41 AM   #10
salvadore
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 1, 2007
Location: Idaho
Posts: 2,282
Just sayin...I kinda was interested in dressin up like howdy doody and firin away with case fulls of BP but the youtube stuff looked like mattel had a bunch of NOS fanner fifties they sold cheap. I wonder if they did what B.L.E. said would it generate more or less interest.
salvadore is offline  
Old January 18, 2011, 11:20 AM   #11
Noz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 25, 2009
Posts: 643
I have moved my rreply to a new thread called CAS

Last edited by Noz; January 18, 2011 at 11:27 AM.
Noz is offline  
Old January 18, 2011, 11:36 AM   #12
Jbar4Ranch
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 19, 1999
Location: Near Helena, Montana
Posts: 1,719
600 fps isn't out of line at all for a target handgun round, and, like Noz said, they're not difficult to see when the sun is out. There are bows today that will launch arrows pushing the 450 fps mark... of course the bows draw 75-90 pounds and the arrows are extremely light, like 225 grains, but still...
__________________
Sometimes the squeaky wheel gets replaced...

SASS 47015
Jbar4Ranch is offline  
Old January 18, 2011, 06:40 PM   #13
rosewood
Member
 
Join Date: March 30, 2010
Location: conn
Posts: 19
I had assumed they were filled with bp. Wouldnt they have to be to be used in bp pistols with conversion cylinders?
rosewood is offline  
Old January 18, 2011, 08:06 PM   #14
Fingers McGee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 19, 2008
Location: High & Dry in Missouri Ozarks
Posts: 2,113
Cowboy Load generally refers to ammunition loaded with pure lead bullets and either smokeless powder, black powder or black powder substitutes that falls within pressure and velocity ranges found in non-magnum or +p loads. (Sometimes called standard velocity - whatever that means) Cowboy loads are not what is euphimistically refered to as "Mouse Phart" loads or "gamer" loads. SASS ammunition must meet velocity and power factor limitations to be legal for use. Cowboy loads are not:

Quote:
like mattel had a bunch of NOS fanner fifties they sold cheap.
Quote:
a load that will get a bullet of a given weight out of the barrel of a handgun or rifle and have it hit the target and make it bounce.
Quote:
when you compare the ballistics of cowboy ammunition, you NEED a lever gun to get the velocity and energy the normal HANDGUN load developed in 1880.
Quote:
cowboy loads are loaded to a lesser pressure for one or both of two reasons:
1) less chance of damaging the targets
2) allows for better control
SASS Ammunition requirements are:

The minimum standard for center-fire smokeless ammunition used in all SASS matches
State, Regional, National, International, and World Championship Competitions is not less
than a minimum power factor of 60 and no velocity may be less than 400 fps. The maximum
velocity standard for revolvers is 1000 fps. The maximum velocity standard for rifles is 1400
fps. Pocket pistols, derringers, and long-range rifles are exempt from the power factor and
velocity requirements.
Power factors are simply calculated by multiplying the bullet weight times the velocity
and then the resulting number is divided by 1000. Some examples are as follows:
100 gr bullet traveling at 600 fps has a power factor of 60: (100x600)/1000=60.00
77 gr bullet traveling at 800 fps has a power factor of 61.6 (77x800)/1000=61.60
200 gr bullet traveling at 400 fps has a power factor of 80 (200x400)/1000=80.00

Commercial Cowboy Loads far exceed the minimum power factor.

Please, don't assume, don't guess, don't repeat uncertain facts. If you have't tried it, I cordially invite you to attend the next match near where you live. I'm certain you'll find it quite different than what you think.
__________________
Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee - AKA Man of Many Colts - Alter ego of Diabolical Ken; SASS Regulator 28564-L-TG; Rangemaster and stage writer extraordinaire; Frontiersman, Pistoleer, NRA Endowment Life, NMLRA, SAF, CCRKBA, STORM 327, SV115; Charter member, Central Ozarks Western Shooters
Cynic: A blackguard whose faulty vision see things as they are, not as they should be. Ambrose Bierce

Last edited by Fingers McGee; January 18, 2011 at 11:47 PM.
Fingers McGee is offline  
Old January 18, 2011, 09:11 PM   #15
Hardcase
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2009
Location: Sunny Southern Idaho
Posts: 1,909
Cowboy loads also will not blow up my Colt Lightning Magazine Rifle and let me shoot it now and then without having to clean the black powder mess out of the complicated action.
__________________
Well we don't rent pigs and I figure it's better to say it right out front because a man that does like to rent pigs is... he's hard to stop - Gus McCrae
Hardcase is offline  
Old January 18, 2011, 09:25 PM   #16
salvadore
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 1, 2007
Location: Idaho
Posts: 2,282
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rH96v...eature=related


Quote:
like mattel had a bunch of NOS fanner fifties they sold cheap.
An old fat guy like myself can appreciate movin and hitting the targets, but I still think the minimum power factor might be raised a smidge, but it's not my game so what do I know?
salvadore is offline  
Old January 19, 2011, 12:34 AM   #17
Jbar4Ranch
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 19, 1999
Location: Near Helena, Montana
Posts: 1,719
One of the great things about this game is you can shoot it the way YOU want to shoot it - go for speed with low velocity, small caliber, light bullets or go for the shock & awe factor with .45 Colts/250 grainers, a 56-50 rifle with 350 grainers and a 10 gauge SxS, all brass shells & 2 oz of shot, all loaded with black powder - none of those substitutes for me.
__________________
Sometimes the squeaky wheel gets replaced...

SASS 47015
Jbar4Ranch is offline  
Old January 20, 2011, 10:17 AM   #18
strong45side
Member
 
Join Date: January 16, 2011
Posts: 40
Question, so does a 250g cowboy action all lead load shoot any differently (different recoil?) than say an american eagle 250g semi jacketed round?
strong45side is offline  
Old January 20, 2011, 12:28 PM   #19
Fingers McGee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 19, 2008
Location: High & Dry in Missouri Ozarks
Posts: 2,113
Maybe. I don't know what the American eagle clocks in at; and haven't shot a semi jacketed or jacketed HP in 45 Colt in a bunch of years; but, a Black Hills 250 grain RNFP exits a 4 3/4 inch barreled Cimarron at around 790 fps; and a Winchester "Cowboy" load 250 grain RNFP exits a 4 3/4 inch barreled GWII at around 760 fps.
__________________
Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee - AKA Man of Many Colts - Alter ego of Diabolical Ken; SASS Regulator 28564-L-TG; Rangemaster and stage writer extraordinaire; Frontiersman, Pistoleer, NRA Endowment Life, NMLRA, SAF, CCRKBA, STORM 327, SV115; Charter member, Central Ozarks Western Shooters
Cynic: A blackguard whose faulty vision see things as they are, not as they should be. Ambrose Bierce
Fingers McGee is offline  
Old January 20, 2011, 02:56 PM   #20
Carolina Cowboy
Member
 
Join Date: October 9, 2009
Posts: 21
sass real power loads

Here is what most of the shoots I have been to look like, not mouse fart loads at all, that is me shooting my 45's and LOVING ever second of it, course I am not going to be going for a world record, but I am having a blast(pun intented)

You might have to cut and paste this link

http://johnsoncreekregulators.com/vi...-10/cc9-10.htm

www.johnsoncreekregulators.com
Carolina Cowboy is offline  
Old January 21, 2011, 04:26 PM   #21
Red Cent
Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2010
Posts: 36
Same old stuff. If you want a boomenlouder load, go for it. If I want to load a 38 Spec with a 105gr bullet and 3.2 grs of American Select, it would work for me. If I beat the heck out of your time on the stage, why should I be required to load them hot like you? Why don't you load down? No? Then whats the difference?

SASS is a game. SASS is a fantasy. SASS is not trying to duplicate the Wild West.

SASS wants the young folks and the ladies to enjoy the game. We want them to shoot and not be intimidated by the blast and recoil.

Browse and enjoy.
http://www.jspublications.net/records/records.html
__________________
Life is too short to argue with stupid people and drink cheap booze SASS# 29170
McLeansville, NC by way of WV.
Red Cent is offline  
Old January 21, 2011, 05:00 PM   #22
Bowdog
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 16, 2010
Location: East Tennessee
Posts: 112
I shoot CAS using a 200gr. RNLFP .45 Colt with 5.5 gr. Trailboss powder. Not a real heavy load But by CAS standards it is. Knocks the hell out of most targets. The knock down ones go down and back up so fast you think you missed.
Bowdog is offline  
Old January 22, 2011, 02:23 PM   #23
Red Cent
Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2010
Posts: 36
When I shot 45s, I used 165gr bullet with 4.2 Americaan Select. Same in rifle.
__________________
Life is too short to argue with stupid people and drink cheap booze SASS# 29170
McLeansville, NC by way of WV.
Red Cent is offline  
Old January 22, 2011, 02:32 PM   #24
Hawg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 8, 2007
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 16,175
44-40, 7 grs. Win 231, 200 gr. RNFP
Hawg is offline  
Old January 22, 2011, 07:35 PM   #25
Fingers McGee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 19, 2008
Location: High & Dry in Missouri Ozarks
Posts: 2,113
44-40, 200 grain big lube bullet and a case full of BP. Don't get any beter'n that

FM
__________________
Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee - AKA Man of Many Colts - Alter ego of Diabolical Ken; SASS Regulator 28564-L-TG; Rangemaster and stage writer extraordinaire; Frontiersman, Pistoleer, NRA Endowment Life, NMLRA, SAF, CCRKBA, STORM 327, SV115; Charter member, Central Ozarks Western Shooters
Cynic: A blackguard whose faulty vision see things as they are, not as they should be. Ambrose Bierce
Fingers McGee is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:05 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.20366 seconds with 10 queries