Help in Identifying & "Appraising" a Shotgun...

Stephen A. Camp · November 29, 2002, 04:34 PM

Hello. My father-in-law has this old gun. It appears to say "Chas. Ingram" on it and I can read little else. It's an old side-by-side 12 ga and appears to've been quite "fancy" in its day. The release for the bbls in on the right side of the gun rather than atop the pistolgrip.

Maybe this pictures can aid in its identification and possible worth?
Any and all help is appreciated.

This little plaque noting that the gun's from someone to someone else is on the lower rear edge of the buttstock.

From the top...

On the right side of the shotgun is the lever for opening it...

I THINK this is the maker?

Another view...

Well, that's about the best I can do on the thing in terms of identifying it. The words between the bbls on the top are sooooooooo faint I could hardly read them, but I THINK it also said "Proof Steel" and the last word MIGHT HAVE BEEN "Glassgow."

Again, any help appreciated and thanks.

Best.

BADSBSNF81 · November 30, 2002, 01:48 AM

Stephen, try posting at http://www.gunshop.com/. They deal in double guns (shotguns, rifles, drillings, etc).

Stephen A. Camp · November 30, 2002, 08:17 AM

Hello. Thanks for the tip.

Best.

Jim Watson · November 30, 2002, 10:41 AM

The lever layout looks like Needham's Snap Action Sidelever of 1862 as illustrated in Greener. Greener said the pattern was effective and durable and guns were in use for years after top levers came in.

The locks, hammers, fences, and receiver contours are all different from the Needham shown by Greener.

Guesses follow:

"Proof Steel" and "Glasgow" tell me that a Scots maker, Mr Ingram, was making sidelever guns for his conservative customers who wanted no newfangled hammerless toplevers. The patent had probably run out by then.

If that faint inscription is "Glassgow" and not "Glasgow" I have to wonder if it might not be a Continental copy. Such misspellings were common in the trade gun business.

Proof marks would help. Are they legible on the bottom of the barrel breeches or the water table of the receiver?

Let us know what the real experts say.

fal308 · November 30, 2002, 12:16 PM

The book Side by Sides of the World by Charles E Carder lists;
INGRAM, CHARLES- Of Glasgow, Scotland, circa 1860, very high quality, cased with extra barrels. Sidelock, engraved, checkered wood, cased with accessories (very ornate)
No other information from this book.

Jim Watson · November 30, 2002, 01:31 PM

Might be older than I thought.
With steel barrels I figured it was a sidelever hammer gun built out of period, but David McKay Brown says:
"In 1836 yet another famous Glasgow gunmaker founded his business, and by 1855 Charles Ingram is recorded as being a **cast steel barrel maker** and his target rifles were highly regarded. The firm of Ingram survived until 1945."
Looks like the Scots might have started getting over the Damascus fashion sooner than the Sassenachs.

These folks have an Ingram toplever hammer gun for sale at 1450 pounds.
http://www.glasgowgunmakers.co.uk/stocklist.htm

Stephen A. Camp · November 30, 2002, 06:17 PM

Hello, gentlemen, and thanks so much for the help.
On behalf of my father-in-law, thanks as well.

Best.

November 29, 2002, 04:34 PM	#1
Stephen A. Camp Staff In Memoriam Join Date: April 16, 1999 Posts: 2,570	Help in Identifying & "Appraising" a Shotgun... Hello. My father-in-law has this old gun. It appears to say "Chas. Ingram" on it and I can read little else. It's an old side-by-side 12 ga and appears to've been quite "fancy" in its day. The release for the bbls in on the right side of the gun rather than atop the pistolgrip. Maybe this pictures can aid in its identification and possible worth? Any and all help is appreciated. This little plaque noting that the gun's from someone to someone else is on the lower rear edge of the buttstock. From the top... On the right side of the shotgun is the lever for opening it... I THINK this is the maker? Another view... Well, that's about the best I can do on the thing in terms of identifying it. The words between the bbls on the top are sooooooooo faint I could hardly read them, but I THINK it also said "Proof Steel" and the last word MIGHT HAVE BEEN "Glassgow." Again, any help appreciated and thanks. Best.

November 30, 2002, 01:48 AM	#2
BADSBSNF81 Senior Member Join Date: May 18, 2001 Posts: 386	Stephen, try posting at http://www.gunshop.com/. They deal in double guns (shotguns, rifles, drillings, etc). __________________ All stations stand by for flash traffic...

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November 30, 2002, 08:17 AM	#3
Stephen A. Camp Staff In Memoriam Join Date: April 16, 1999 Posts: 2,570	Hello. Thanks for the tip. Best.

November 30, 2002, 10:41 AM	#4
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,528	The lever layout looks like Needham's Snap Action Sidelever of 1862 as illustrated in Greener. Greener said the pattern was effective and durable and guns were in use for years after top levers came in. The locks, hammers, fences, and receiver contours are all different from the Needham shown by Greener. Guesses follow: "Proof Steel" and "Glasgow" tell me that a Scots maker, Mr Ingram, was making sidelever guns for his conservative customers who wanted no newfangled hammerless toplevers. The patent had probably run out by then. If that faint inscription is "Glassgow" and not "Glasgow" I have to wonder if it might not be a Continental copy. Such misspellings were common in the trade gun business. Proof marks would help. Are they legible on the bottom of the barrel breeches or the water table of the receiver? Let us know what the real experts say.

November 30, 2002, 12:16 PM	#5
fal308 Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 12, 1998 Location: Missouri Posts: 1,992	The book Side by Sides of the World by Charles E Carder lists; INGRAM, CHARLES- Of Glasgow, Scotland, circa 1860, very high quality, cased with extra barrels. Sidelock, engraved, checkered wood, cased with accessories (very ornate) No other information from this book.

November 30, 2002, 01:31 PM	#6
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,528	Might be older than I thought. With steel barrels I figured it was a sidelever hammer gun built out of period, but David McKay Brown says: "In 1836 yet another famous Glasgow gunmaker founded his business, and by 1855 Charles Ingram is recorded as being a cast steel barrel maker and his target rifles were highly regarded. The firm of Ingram survived until 1945." Looks like the Scots might have started getting over the Damascus fashion sooner than the Sassenachs. These folks have an Ingram toplever hammer gun for sale at 1450 pounds. http://www.glasgowgunmakers.co.uk/stocklist.htm

November 30, 2002, 06:17 PM	#7
Stephen A. Camp Staff In Memoriam Join Date: April 16, 1999 Posts: 2,570	Hello, gentlemen, and thanks so much for the help. On behalf of my father-in-law, thanks as well. Best.