What Went Wrong?

roy reali · July 26, 2009, 12:55 PM

DSCN0286.jpg

I fired this group this morning. It was at one hundred yards. So, what went wrong.

The rifle was one of those cheap, single shots. You know them as New England Handi-Rifles. Some folks think you can't hit the side of a barn with them.

The cartridge was the .45-70. The powder was placed in the cases using "Lee Dippers." As many know, using dippers causes groups that are measured with yard sticks. So, how did I screw up so badly.

Shoney · July 26, 2009, 01:19 PM

I trust you had the target at the 100 yard marker. Did you fire the shots from the 95 yard marker?????

You might also blame that object that slammed into Jupiter leaving an earth sized hole in it atmospher. Other things that should be high on your list to check would be
- proximity to Chupichabra's
- Big Foot activity in your area
- and yes, check for Aliens on your roof

Farmland · July 26, 2009, 01:25 PM

Yeah you only hit the target three times, that isn't very good out of 10 shots.

tmd11111 · July 26, 2009, 02:00 PM

You completly miss the quarter with all 3 shots.

I'm starting to think you couldn't water if you fell out of a boat.

roy reali · July 26, 2009, 02:12 PM

There was a stiff cross wind.

Sevens · July 26, 2009, 02:26 PM

In looking at the attached picture, it's pretty easy to see what went wrong.

The image is quite over exposed. Check shutter speed and lighting, maybe give it another shot. But don't give up!

Farmland · July 26, 2009, 02:50 PM

Then again all that muzzle blast turned the yellow target black.

lizziedog1 · July 26, 2009, 03:34 PM

You shot a handirifle with reloads using Lee Dippers!

You are lucky you have enough fingers left to operate your keyboard.

Bella · July 26, 2009, 03:35 PM

What were your 45-70 loads?

roy reali · July 26, 2009, 03:37 PM

Cases: Used remington
Primers: Magtech 91/2
Powder: Varget, stiff load
Bullets: Sierra 300 grain HP's

Paul B. · July 26, 2009, 03:38 PM

Your wibbles compensated for you wobble thus allowing the millifraises to inteeact with were fleeglop sydrome thus confusing youto the fact that those guns just don't shoot all that well.

Paul B.

cobra81 · July 26, 2009, 04:48 PM

You're right, the gun is junk. Send it to me so you don't have to put up with such pathetic accuracy. I'll pay the shipping.

Wildalaska · July 26, 2009, 04:53 PM

Nice group.

Lee dippers can work well if used properly.

WildiprefertowieghmyselfAlaska TM

roy reali · July 26, 2009, 05:08 PM

Thanks! I don't think an advanced degree is needed to operate dippers.

dahermit · July 26, 2009, 05:46 PM

3-shot groups do not mean anything. That is why five-shot groups are the norm for all paper target competition. Shoot one five-shot group and then show it to us. Ask yourself: What are the chances of a good three-shot group being the result of random shot placement compared to a five- shot group? Hint: A five-shot group being a random accident is many, many, many times less likely than a three shot group.

Dragon55 · July 26, 2009, 05:49 PM

actually hermit it's only many, many 2 orders of magnitude... not 3

**Unclenick** · July 26, 2009, 05:56 PM

I shot my .222 Remington for years using only a Lee Loader, dipping IMR 4198 for it, and it normally shot sub-dime-size groups that way. It is also the case that stick powder loads are often found to be less sensitive to charge variance than spherical propellants are. This was observed by Hatcher long ago, who noted that in developing National Match ammunition one year he found a coarse grain powder that consistently shot more accurately than a fine grained one his armory equipment could meter about twice as precisely. He credited easier ignition due to the flame front passing through the grain interstices more easily.

snuffy · July 26, 2009, 06:15 PM

It's horizontally strung out. If it were a round group, I'd say it was a good group. Perhaps shots 4 and 5 would have resulted in a further stringing to the left or right.

Yeah, I know, somebody had to go rain on your parade.

johnsonva · July 26, 2009, 06:33 PM

Hi,

I know the pain you are going through. Just can not seem to get it right.
45-70, Hornaday 300gr HP, 100 yards, five shots, Remington rolling block, 20gr Blue Dot

Johnsonva

IllinoisCoyoteHunter · July 26, 2009, 07:01 PM

Maybe you put the other 7 shots in those 3 holes *snickering*....

Wildalaska · July 26, 2009, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Thanks! I don't think an advanced degree is needed to operate dippers.

No but a steady hand and some experience is

WildionlyusethemasadjunctcuziamadipperdoofusAlaska TM

elkman06 · July 26, 2009, 08:54 PM

Yep they're junk I tell ya. The only one I ever shot was a 45/70 also. I only put two in a ten in circle....at 500meters..out of 2. In all fairness the old boy that invited me to try it, also had it set up. just point and shoot. I was suitably impressed though.
elkman06

W. C. Quantrill · July 26, 2009, 09:01 PM

I just loaded two hundred and fifty .308's with a lee dipper and Varget. They are very accurate, and they function well in my semi auto rifle. I have two .222 rifles that have only seen reloads with a dipper when shooting p-dogs.

If you dip from a container with plenty of powder in it, and then strike the dipper with a straight edge, the loads are amazingly consistent.

The only problem with Lee's dippers are that they choose the dipper size and you are left to use their sizes. Oft times there isnt an "in between" dipper size for a mid range load.

jal5 · July 26, 2009, 10:56 PM

Nice shooting. the 4570 is supposed to be one of the more accurate calibers for the handirifle. I am a fan of them too- 243, 270, 20 ga., 16 ga. and 50 cal. muzzleloader.

tmd11111 · July 26, 2009, 11:18 PM

Quote:

3-shot groups do not mean anything.

Yeah, those first 3 shots dont mean squat.

It's the last 2 that really matter, specially when being attacked by a paper target.

July 26, 2009, 12:55 PM	#1
roy reali Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2005 Posts: 3,248	What Went Wrong? DSCN0286.jpg I fired this group this morning. It was at one hundred yards. So, what went wrong. The rifle was one of those cheap, single shots. You know them as New England Handi-Rifles. Some folks think you can't hit the side of a barn with them. The cartridge was the .45-70. The powder was placed in the cases using "Lee Dippers." As many know, using dippers causes groups that are measured with yard sticks. So, how did I screw up so badly.

July 26, 2009, 01:19 PM	#2
Shoney Senior Member Join Date: February 21, 2002 Location: Transplanted from Montana Posts: 2,311	I trust you had the target at the 100 yard marker. Did you fire the shots from the 95 yard marker????? You might also blame that object that slammed into Jupiter leaving an earth sized hole in it atmospher. Other things that should be high on your list to check would be - proximity to Chupichabra's - Big Foot activity in your area - and yes, check for Aliens on your roof __________________ I pledge allegiance to the Flag - - -, and to the Republic for which it stands….Our Forefathers were brilliant for giving us a Republic, not a democracy! Do you know the difference??? and WHY?http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissue...les.asp?id=111

July 26, 2009, 02:12 PM	#5
roy reali Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2005 Posts: 3,248	re:tmd11111 There was a stiff cross wind.

July 26, 2009, 02:26 PM	#6
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	In looking at the attached picture, it's pretty easy to see what went wrong. The image is quite over exposed. Check shutter speed and lighting, maybe give it another shot. But don't give up! __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

July 26, 2009, 03:35 PM	#9
Bella Senior Member Join Date: July 6, 2009 Posts: 341	More Info What were your 45-70 loads?

July 26, 2009, 01:25 PM	#3
Farmland Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2009 Posts: 869	Yeah you only hit the target three times, that isn't very good out of 10 shots.

July 26, 2009, 02:00 PM	#4
tmd11111 Junior member Join Date: January 26, 2009 Location: San Angelo, Tx Posts: 275	You completly miss the quarter with all 3 shots. I'm starting to think you couldn't water if you fell out of a boat.

July 26, 2009, 02:50 PM	#7
Farmland Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2009 Posts: 869	Then again all that muzzle blast turned the yellow target black.

July 26, 2009, 03:34 PM	#8
lizziedog1 Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2005 Posts: 289	You shot a handirifle with reloads using Lee Dippers! You are lucky you have enough fingers left to operate your keyboard.

July 26, 2009, 03:37 PM	#10
roy reali Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2005 Posts: 3,248	The Load Cases: Used remington Primers: Magtech 91/2 Powder: Varget, stiff load Bullets: Sierra 300 grain HP's

July 26, 2009, 03:38 PM	#11
Paul B. Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 1999 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 3,801	Your wibbles compensated for you wobble thus allowing the millifraises to inteeact with were fleeglop sydrome thus confusing youto the fact that those guns just don't shoot all that well. Paul B. __________________ COMPROMISE IS NOT AN OPTION!

July 26, 2009, 04:48 PM	#12
cobra81 Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2005 Location: Land of Lincoln Posts: 336	You're right, the gun is junk. Send it to me so you don't have to put up with such pathetic accuracy. I'll pay the shipping.

July 26, 2009, 04:53 PM	#13
Wildalaska Junior member Join Date: November 25, 2002 Location: In my own little weird world in Anchorage, Alaska Posts: 14,172	Nice group. Lee dippers can work well if used properly. WildiprefertowieghmyselfAlaska TM

July 26, 2009, 05:08 PM	#14
roy reali Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2005 Posts: 3,248	Re:WildAlaska Thanks! I don't think an advanced degree is needed to operate dippers.

July 26, 2009, 05:46 PM	#15
dahermit Senior Member Join Date: October 28, 2006 Location: South Central Michigan...near Posts: 6,501	3-shot groups do not mean anything. That is why five-shot groups are the norm for all paper target competition. Shoot one five-shot group and then show it to us. Ask yourself: What are the chances of a good three-shot group being the result of random shot placement compared to a five- shot group? Hint: A five-shot group being a random accident is many, many, many times less likely than a three shot group.

July 26, 2009, 05:49 PM	#16
Dragon55 Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2009 Location: East Tennessee Posts: 811	actually hermit it's only many, many 2 orders of magnitude... not 3 __________________ sailing ... A way to spend lots of money and go real S L O W

July 26, 2009, 05:56 PM	#17
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	I shot my .222 Remington for years using only a Lee Loader, dipping IMR 4198 for it, and it normally shot sub-dime-size groups that way. It is also the case that stick powder loads are often found to be less sensitive to charge variance than spherical propellants are. This was observed by Hatcher long ago, who noted that in developing National Match ammunition one year he found a coarse grain powder that consistently shot more accurately than a fine grained one his armory equipment could meter about twice as precisely. He credited easier ignition due to the flame front passing through the grain interstices more easily. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

July 26, 2009, 06:15 PM	#18
snuffy Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2001 Location: Oshkosh wi. Posts: 3,055	Seriously? It's horizontally strung out. If it were a round group, I'd say it was a good group. Perhaps shots 4 and 5 would have resulted in a further stringing to the left or right. Yeah, I know, somebody had to go rain on your parade. __________________ The more people I meet, the more I love my dog They're going to get their butts kicked over there this election. How come people can't spell and use words correctly?

July 26, 2009, 07:01 PM	#20
IllinoisCoyoteHunter Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2008 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 1,527	Maybe you put the other 7 shots in those 3 holes snickering.... __________________ ~~IllinoisCoyoteHunter~~ ~NRA LIFE MEMBER~ ~NRA CERTIFIED INSTRUCTOR~

July 26, 2009, 08:54 PM	#22
elkman06 Senior Member Join Date: March 14, 2006 Location: Wyoming Posts: 885	Yep they're junk I tell ya. The only one I ever shot was a 45/70 also. I only put two in a ten in circle....at 500meters..out of 2. In all fairness the old boy that invited me to try it, also had it set up. just point and shoot. I was suitably impressed though. elkman06 __________________ "The right of the citizens to bear arms in the defense of themselves and of the state shall not be denied." Wyoming Constitution Article 1, Sec24 "Better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6"

July 26, 2009, 09:01 PM	#23
W. C. Quantrill Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2008 Location: No Man's Land Posts: 354	I just loaded two hundred and fifty .308's with a lee dipper and Varget. They are very accurate, and they function well in my semi auto rifle. I have two .222 rifles that have only seen reloads with a dipper when shooting p-dogs. If you dip from a container with plenty of powder in it, and then strike the dipper with a straight edge, the loads are amazingly consistent. The only problem with Lee's dippers are that they choose the dipper size and you are left to use their sizes. Oft times there isnt an "in between" dipper size for a mid range load. __________________ NRA Life Whittington Center Life

July 26, 2009, 10:56 PM	#24
jal5 Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2009 Location: NE Ohio Posts: 419	Nice shooting. the 4570 is supposed to be one of the more accurate calibers for the handirifle. I am a fan of them too- 243, 270, 20 ga., 16 ga. and 50 cal. muzzleloader. __________________ We live in the greatest country on Earth- always be thankful!