Why you should never return an unsafe firearm

JK · January 14, 2001, 06:16 PM

I have a policy in my shop that any safety feature that is not working 100% on a firearm will be fixed or I will not take the gun in for repair.
Just after Christmas an 18 year old kid that lives across the street from me brought in a Mossberg 835 for repair. In doing my pre checks I noticed that the Safety did not work. I told him that the safety also needed repair. He did not want to spend the money to fix the safety, so I refused the repair job. He finally said O.K. I repaired the problem he had brought the gun in for and put in a missing safety transfer bar. After the repair I test fired the firearm and checked all safety features. I gave the gun back to him on New Years Eve. Less than 5 hours after returning the shotgun to him, he drove to a remote location and put the muzzle of that same shotgun in his mouth, then pulled the trigger. The local Police ruled that he had taken his own life. In talking with one of the officers, the officer related to me that they had checked out the shotgun and found it to be in perfect working order.
Two thing to learn from this: If I had returned the shotgun with the safety not working, I could have been faced with a very expensive lawsuit. Second, I have the peace of mind knowing that his death was not caused by my returning an unsafe firearm that may have discharged accidently.
It is a sad thing when anyone takes their life. I later found out that one hour before killing himself he had recieved some bad news.
We have had several kids take their own life here in the last few months. Please make sure that every firearm returned is a safe one and talk with your own kids. Make sure that you know what is going on in their lives.
Best Wishes to all - John K

pocat · January 15, 2001, 01:25 AM

Sad news, but very good advice...

Badger Arms · January 15, 2001, 05:09 AM

My father related a story to me where a lady went into his store and bought an HK-4 pistol (.32 caliber incarnation I believe). The gun was returned by the police a few days later. Lady had shot herself in the head. The gun was cleaned and resold. What I found odd about the story at first was that she'd bought a (then) $250 gun when a $50 gun would have done the trick. I now realize that at that point near the end of her life, money was not important. And that HK was a nifty looking gun if I do say so myself.

I always worry about selling defective guns as I often deal in used guns. I took one Mossberg 500 back when the purchaser said it wouldn't feed correctly. Sure enough, it didn't for me either. I gave him a refund and apology, fixed the gun myself, and resold it. The first owner didn't trust the gun but the new owner didn't know it had ever had a problem. Operating in good faith is part of the deal. It was interesting that I bought the gun at a pawn shop. Original owner bought it from a department store. He took it out and found out it jammed. Sold it to pawn shop who sold it to me. I sold it to two people. Too many transfers. I felt somewhat good to put the gun back on the trail in working condition after a bunch of us got screwed along the way.

I will never trust a Mossberg, btw. Seen too many broken ones in my time.

Bogie · January 15, 2001, 06:13 PM

On the down side, I had a local smith insist on replacing a two pound SA trigger job on a Dan Wesson .357 target pistol (pin gun) with a "safer" one. Without asking me first. And he wouldn't let me have the gun back without paying him to do it. And he didn't have the old parts...

He _SURE_ isn't going to see my bench gun, and its ounce and a half Jewell trigger...

I did send another guy a SxS shotgun which had the right hand trigger breaking at approximately a pound - I didn't really like that much. He fixed it to about three - I'm more comfy with that.

Yet another guy was telling me not to worry about the safety operation on one of my Savages - I could run the trigger as light as I wanted...

As far as folks offing themselves, I heard from a local dealer a while back that she'd had a guy come in looking at the Mossberg Persuader/cruiser/whatever pistol grip shotgun, and when she asked him what he wanted it for, he told her he was going to kill himself. She refused to sell it to him, and called the cops and gave them his info. She then called around to the rest of the dealers in the metro area. Most of 'em agreed to help the guy out by not helping him, but one SOB replied, "Hey, thanks! I'll make sure he pays cash!" That's NOT the kinda guy we need in our ranks...

Badger Arms · January 15, 2001, 08:25 PM

I took one gun to a guy to get refinished which I'm not currently set up to do. The gun comes back with a charge for a new safety! I asked him why he touched the safety and he said that he'd broken it because I'd adjusted the trigger wrong. I hadn't TOUCHED the trigger (new gun that worked fine when he got it). I needed the gun so I payed the idiot and left. Come to find out that when you applied the safety as he had installed it and pulled the trigger, the gun would go off! This guy's wife had died between the time that I sent him the gun and when I got it back. Took four months to accomplish. I sympathize with him and just decided to cut my losses. The title 'gunsmith' is not an earned title, it is often userped.

Strayhorn · January 16, 2001, 10:36 AM

Excellent advice, JK.

In Jerry Kuhnhausen's fine series of workshop manuals, he starts off with his policy on shop work which includes a warning about always checking safeties before the firearm is signed into the shop. Owners are advised if a safety is nonfunctioning and if they don't want to spend the money on repairs, the entire job is refused. If anyone wants a safety removed that job is refused. Ultra-light trigger jobs are refused for the same reason.

Besides the moral responsibility, there is always the threat of a lawsuit. If you return a firearm with a safety you know is nonfunctioning, and something happens, you'll never see the end of the lawsuits.

Ken Strayhorn
Hillsborough NC

Dangus · January 16, 2001, 11:06 AM

Quote:

On the down side, I had a local smith insist on replacing a two pound SA trigger job on a Dan Wesson .357 target pistol (pin gun) with a "safer" one. Without asking me first. And he wouldn't let me have the gun back without paying him to do it. And he didn't have the old parts...

I'd have that idiot in small claims court in a heartbeat, or at least threaten to take him. There is a law against accepting a job on one thing and then doing other stuff without asking and charging for it.

Danomite 45 · January 17, 2001, 02:52 AM

OK people.
in todays lawsuit crazed society I understand the need to cover one's but. However If you, the schooled gunsmith, the Professional, refuses a lite trigger job for fear of being sued, who will do it?
Jeff Cooper, the guru of pistol shooting- pins his grip safety on his 1911. SO WHAT?!
If you are concerned, have the customer sighn a waiver!
John K., That person ment to kill herself, the safety would not have stopped her.
You will have idiots in your shop, do not cater to them.
but to the shooter who knows what he/she wants, if it is reasonable, by all means do it!!
Daniel

Double Naught Spy · January 17, 2001, 04:30 PM

Whether or not the safety worked, you could have seriously investigated for returning a firearms to a suicidal individual. I know it sounds strange, it can happen. To add to the stories, one of our store managers sold a gun to a woman who lived out in the country. Her husband was gone quite a bit with work and she said she feared being all alone, especially since there was a lot of road construction in the area (expanded 2 to 4 lane highway - long project) and there were a lot of workers around who had probably figured out she was alone. She bought a quality firearms (sorry, I don't remember which one, but it wasn't one of our cheap ones), got explicit instructions on loading, safety, aiming, etc., filled out the paperwork, paid in cash, immediatey drove to the next town, bought ammo, and then drove to a mall parkinglot where she killed herself. The manager was questioned at length about this on more than one occasion, the PD trying to determine if he knowingly sold a firearm to a suicidal person. After considerable checking, everything the manager reported she said was true and had been expressed to various friends and family. Nobody knew she was suicidal.

As far as the potential lawsuit for JK, if you discover after taking the gun that it is unsafe and you refuse to return it to the individual who is willing to pay for the requested work done, then you are breaking the law already. You have no legal right to confiscate guns. You did the right thing by checking out the gun when you took it in. However, you can refuse to accept guns before they are put into your possession unless the customer agrees to have the appropriate safety work done.

JK · January 18, 2001, 12:10 AM

To answer all, The young man who killed himself was not planning to do so when I returned the shotgun to him. Only after getting some bad news several hours later did he decide to take his life. D.N.S. is correct about keeping an unsafe firearm after it has been left with you. This is why I check out every firearm that comes into the shop in front of the customer. If I later find a safety problem, and the customer does not want to pay to fix the problem, as long as it does not cost me an arm and a leg, I will fix it free of charge just to cover my butt.
Daniel, the reason behind not putting very light trigger pulls on a gun is that once the gun leaves your possession you have no idea who will pick it up and shoot it. Even if the owner signs a waiver, someone else could pick it up and have an accident resulting in a major lawsuit. It cost me $14,000 to go to gunsmithing school and I now have thousands of dollars worth of tools and equipment and own a home. It is not worth the $50.00 I would make to lighten a trigger and have a lawsuit that results in me having to give up everything that I have worked so hard for. The anti gunners are using lawsuits to try and put anyone connected with firearms out of business. I do not want to be another notch in their belt. Please consider the above before you get upset with a gunsmith who wants to keep what he has.
Good Shooting to all of you, John K

zot · January 18, 2001, 01:18 AM

yeah I allmost gave up my FFL, but found out its easier to
renew than quit! ha ha? but about the poor soul that pulled
the trigger and blew his own brains out, so what?thank god he wasn't a POSTAL WORKER!!!

Bogie · January 19, 2001, 03:41 PM

Thing is, I suspect that more than a few gunsmiths would then refuse to work on my bench gun. Why? Ignorance.

The Stolle receiver does not have a safety incorporated. If a round goes in, it comes out in two different places. Golly gee, and it doesn't have an ejector - just the extractor...

The Jewell trigger is set at an ounce and a half, and if anyone touches it, it's either going to be Ron Hoehn or Arnold Jewell (who was loading about 2-3 tables away from me at the Nationals).

It also has an unfinished stock and is lacking a buttplate, with the trigger guard held on with only one screw. But you know what? It's also about a quarter-ounce under weight!

January 17, 2001, 02:52 AM	#8
Danomite 45 Junior Member Join Date: January 11, 2001 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 12	OK people. in todays lawsuit crazed society I understand the need to cover one's but. However If you, the schooled gunsmith, the Professional, refuses a lite trigger job for fear of being sued, who will do it? Jeff Cooper, the guru of pistol shooting- pins his grip safety on his 1911. SO WHAT?! If you are concerned, have the customer sighn a waiver! John K., That person ment to kill herself, the safety would not have stopped her. You will have idiots in your shop, do not cater to them. but to the shooter who knows what he/she wants, if it is reasonable, by all means do it!! Daniel __________________ 1Peter 5:8

January 18, 2001, 12:10 AM	#10
JK Member Join Date: October 27, 2000 Posts: 75	To answer all, The young man who killed himself was not planning to do so when I returned the shotgun to him. Only after getting some bad news several hours later did he decide to take his life. D.N.S. is correct about keeping an unsafe firearm after it has been left with you. This is why I check out every firearm that comes into the shop in front of the customer. If I later find a safety problem, and the customer does not want to pay to fix the problem, as long as it does not cost me an arm and a leg, I will fix it free of charge just to cover my butt. Daniel, the reason behind not putting very light trigger pulls on a gun is that once the gun leaves your possession you have no idea who will pick it up and shoot it. Even if the owner signs a waiver, someone else could pick it up and have an accident resulting in a major lawsuit. It cost me $14,000 to go to gunsmithing school and I now have thousands of dollars worth of tools and equipment and own a home. It is not worth the $50.00 I would make to lighten a trigger and have a lawsuit that results in me having to give up everything that I have worked so hard for. The anti gunners are using lawsuits to try and put anyone connected with firearms out of business. I do not want to be another notch in their belt. Please consider the above before you get upset with a gunsmith who wants to keep what he has. Good Shooting to all of you, John K __________________ Fight Crime-Shoot Back

January 14, 2001, 06:16 PM	#1
JK Member Join Date: October 27, 2000 Posts: 75	I have a policy in my shop that any safety feature that is not working 100% on a firearm will be fixed or I will not take the gun in for repair. Just after Christmas an 18 year old kid that lives across the street from me brought in a Mossberg 835 for repair. In doing my pre checks I noticed that the Safety did not work. I told him that the safety also needed repair. He did not want to spend the money to fix the safety, so I refused the repair job. He finally said O.K. I repaired the problem he had brought the gun in for and put in a missing safety transfer bar. After the repair I test fired the firearm and checked all safety features. I gave the gun back to him on New Years Eve. Less than 5 hours after returning the shotgun to him, he drove to a remote location and put the muzzle of that same shotgun in his mouth, then pulled the trigger. The local Police ruled that he had taken his own life. In talking with one of the officers, the officer related to me that they had checked out the shotgun and found it to be in perfect working order. Two thing to learn from this: If I had returned the shotgun with the safety not working, I could have been faced with a very expensive lawsuit. Second, I have the peace of mind knowing that his death was not caused by my returning an unsafe firearm that may have discharged accidently. It is a sad thing when anyone takes their life. I later found out that one hour before killing himself he had recieved some bad news. We have had several kids take their own life here in the last few months. Please make sure that every firearm returned is a safe one and talk with your own kids. Make sure that you know what is going on in their lives. Best Wishes to all - John K

January 15, 2001, 01:25 AM	#2
pocat Member Join Date: September 29, 2000 Location: Covington KY Posts: 74	Sad news, but very good advice...

January 15, 2001, 05:09 AM	#3
Badger Arms Senior Member Join Date: July 2, 2000 Location: Harnett County, NC Posts: 1,700	My father related a story to me where a lady went into his store and bought an HK-4 pistol (.32 caliber incarnation I believe). The gun was returned by the police a few days later. Lady had shot herself in the head. The gun was cleaned and resold. What I found odd about the story at first was that she'd bought a (then) $250 gun when a $50 gun would have done the trick. I now realize that at that point near the end of her life, money was not important. And that HK was a nifty looking gun if I do say so myself. I always worry about selling defective guns as I often deal in used guns. I took one Mossberg 500 back when the purchaser said it wouldn't feed correctly. Sure enough, it didn't for me either. I gave him a refund and apology, fixed the gun myself, and resold it. The first owner didn't trust the gun but the new owner didn't know it had ever had a problem. Operating in good faith is part of the deal. It was interesting that I bought the gun at a pawn shop. Original owner bought it from a department store. He took it out and found out it jammed. Sold it to pawn shop who sold it to me. I sold it to two people. Too many transfers. I felt somewhat good to put the gun back on the trail in working condition after a bunch of us got screwed along the way. I will never trust a Mossberg, btw. Seen too many broken ones in my time.

January 15, 2001, 06:13 PM	#4
Bogie Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 2000 Location: Job hunting on the road... Posts: 3,827	On the down side, I had a local smith insist on replacing a two pound SA trigger job on a Dan Wesson .357 target pistol (pin gun) with a "safer" one. Without asking me first. And he wouldn't let me have the gun back without paying him to do it. And he didn't have the old parts... He _SURE_ isn't going to see my bench gun, and its ounce and a half Jewell trigger... I did send another guy a SxS shotgun which had the right hand trigger breaking at approximately a pound - I didn't really like that much. He fixed it to about three - I'm more comfy with that. Yet another guy was telling me not to worry about the safety operation on one of my Savages - I could run the trigger as light as I wanted... As far as folks offing themselves, I heard from a local dealer a while back that she'd had a guy come in looking at the Mossberg Persuader/cruiser/whatever pistol grip shotgun, and when she asked him what he wanted it for, he told her he was going to kill himself. She refused to sell it to him, and called the cops and gave them his info. She then called around to the rest of the dealers in the metro area. Most of 'em agreed to help the guy out by not helping him, but one SOB replied, "Hey, thanks! I'll make sure he pays cash!" That's NOT the kinda guy we need in our ranks...

January 15, 2001, 08:25 PM	#5
Badger Arms Senior Member Join Date: July 2, 2000 Location: Harnett County, NC Posts: 1,700	I took one gun to a guy to get refinished which I'm not currently set up to do. The gun comes back with a charge for a new safety! I asked him why he touched the safety and he said that he'd broken it because I'd adjusted the trigger wrong. I hadn't TOUCHED the trigger (new gun that worked fine when he got it). I needed the gun so I payed the idiot and left. Come to find out that when you applied the safety as he had installed it and pulled the trigger, the gun would go off! This guy's wife had died between the time that I sent him the gun and when I got it back. Took four months to accomplish. I sympathize with him and just decided to cut my losses. The title 'gunsmith' is not an earned title, it is often userped.

January 16, 2001, 10:36 AM	#6
Strayhorn Senior Member Join Date: April 9, 2000 Location: Central NC Posts: 339	Excellent advice, JK. In Jerry Kuhnhausen's fine series of workshop manuals, he starts off with his policy on shop work which includes a warning about always checking safeties before the firearm is signed into the shop. Owners are advised if a safety is nonfunctioning and if they don't want to spend the money on repairs, the entire job is refused. If anyone wants a safety removed that job is refused. Ultra-light trigger jobs are refused for the same reason. Besides the moral responsibility, there is always the threat of a lawsuit. If you return a firearm with a safety you know is nonfunctioning, and something happens, you'll never see the end of the lawsuits. Ken Strayhorn Hillsborough NC

January 17, 2001, 04:30 PM	#9
Double Naught Spy Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX Posts: 12,717	Whether or not the safety worked, you could have seriously investigated for returning a firearms to a suicidal individual. I know it sounds strange, it can happen. To add to the stories, one of our store managers sold a gun to a woman who lived out in the country. Her husband was gone quite a bit with work and she said she feared being all alone, especially since there was a lot of road construction in the area (expanded 2 to 4 lane highway - long project) and there were a lot of workers around who had probably figured out she was alone. She bought a quality firearms (sorry, I don't remember which one, but it wasn't one of our cheap ones), got explicit instructions on loading, safety, aiming, etc., filled out the paperwork, paid in cash, immediatey drove to the next town, bought ammo, and then drove to a mall parkinglot where she killed herself. The manager was questioned at length about this on more than one occasion, the PD trying to determine if he knowingly sold a firearm to a suicidal person. After considerable checking, everything the manager reported she said was true and had been expressed to various friends and family. Nobody knew she was suicidal. As far as the potential lawsuit for JK, if you discover after taking the gun that it is unsafe and you refuse to return it to the individual who is willing to pay for the requested work done, then you are breaking the law already. You have no legal right to confiscate guns. You did the right thing by checking out the gun when you took it in. However, you can refuse to accept guns before they are put into your possession unless the customer agrees to have the appropriate safety work done.

January 18, 2001, 01:18 AM	#11
zot Senior Member Join Date: April 2, 1999 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 566	yeah I allmost gave up my FFL, but found out its easier to renew than quit! ha ha? but about the poor soul that pulled the trigger and blew his own brains out, so what?thank god he wasn't a POSTAL WORKER!!!

January 19, 2001, 03:41 PM	#12
Bogie Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 2000 Location: Job hunting on the road... Posts: 3,827	Thing is, I suspect that more than a few gunsmiths would then refuse to work on my bench gun. Why? Ignorance. The Stolle receiver does not have a safety incorporated. If a round goes in, it comes out in two different places. Golly gee, and it doesn't have an ejector - just the extractor... The Jewell trigger is set at an ounce and a half, and if anyone touches it, it's either going to be Ron Hoehn or Arnold Jewell (who was loading about 2-3 tables away from me at the Nationals). It also has an unfinished stock and is lacking a buttplate, with the trigger guard held on with only one screw. But you know what? It's also about a quarter-ounce under weight!