When would a shotgun be your first choice? - Page 4

thmsmgnm · July 31, 2009, 10:17 PM

Remington 870.

MLeake · August 1, 2009, 12:04 AM

I did courses of fire where we either had police cruisers behind us with the lightbars flashing for a multicolored strobe effect while we advanced around barriers into a darkened target area (simulating raid on bad guys), or sentry spotlights streaking back and forth over a perimeter while we engaged targets in the dark areas inside the inner edge of the spotlight tracks (simulating defense against raid by bad guys).

A lot of people had orientation issues with the multi-colored strobes. For some reason, those really didn't bother me at all.

But one doesn't really appreciate the effects of muzzle blast on vision until one shoots in the dark.

Cheers,

M

Stevie-Ray · August 1, 2009, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanya

Any gunshot in a small space will indeed be ridiculously loud, and will absolutely damage your hearing; just because you don't notice the noise at the time doesn't mean it's not blowing out the hair cells in your cochlea.

Fixed it for you.

I'm shopping for some E-muffs, myself.

Evan Thomas · August 1, 2009, 11:10 AM

Thanks, Stevie-Ray! Right you are.

(It's the science background... you're taught to hedge on practically everything.

)

Glenn E. Meyer · August 1, 2009, 11:25 AM

Hair cells - cochlea - hey, who doesn't say we aren't running a high class joint.

About flash - also think about your flashlight. Strap a big honker on your gun. It will blind your opponent.

So as an experiment - I get up in the middle of the night - totally target adapted. I take my Surefire 9P - which I can mount on my AR. I go in the walkin closet - totally pitch black and aim the flashlight light down the aisle.

I trigger it and BOOM! My eyes shut violently and all I see for a few minutes is rows of shirts and shoes.

I would have been better off in the ambient light in the house from outdoor moonlight and using the Eotech.

Slopemeno · August 2, 2009, 12:28 AM

Good point, and something you need to be aware of when you use a flashlight is to make sure you have the flashlight *around* the corner when it comes on- flat white walls reflect a lot of light.

I've shot 12 gauge magnums indoors, in the dark. Yes, they're loud and have a nice dull orange flash, but I'll take that over a .357 any day.

TXSyKo · August 3, 2009, 11:46 AM

12 guage oo buck inside. .30-30 for outside critters. .45acp as a back-up. I have a 116lb furry property alarm system that will give me time to grab the ol' Mossberg propped up next to the bed.

MLeake · August 3, 2009, 11:55 AM

... is to keep one eye closed when lights come up, then reopen it after light goes out. Does a decent job of keeping the eye that was closed adapted for night - the process of adapting can otherwise take around 30 minutes, according to flight physiologists.

Evan Thomas · August 3, 2009, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Pilot trick for keeping night vision in presence of bright lighting...
... is to keep one eye closed when lights come up, then reopen it after light goes out.

Heck, I do that every time I go to the loo in the middle of the night. Works great.

Glenn E. Meyer · August 3, 2009, 04:01 PM

The pilot trick negates the use of the tactical light. You want to see your opponent.

So if you have one eye open, it gets blasted in my scenario of light splash as it is called. If you open the other eye after turning off the light - the light isn't there anymore.

Unless, you think the light is like a flash bang - it doesn't help to shut an eye.

MLeake · August 3, 2009, 04:54 PM

The tactical light isn't just to illuminate and identify; it's also a non-lethal weapon, in the sense that you can blind him even worse than you hinder your own vision. Even if your open eye gets momentarily blinded, it should adapt to the light before the BG/unknown's do, since your eye is receiving reflected light whereas his eyes are receiving direct light. It shouldn't take too long for your illuminated eye to adjust sufficiently for a quick ID of friendly vs intruder.

Unless your eyes are particularly light sensitive, that is.

Meanwhile, if you decide to keep the light on, you can always open the other eye too.

I don't have the same problems adjusting to reflected light from my SureFire that you describe; I do find that it defeats my night sights, because the reflected light usually puts my sights in sharp silhouette.

However, using the one eye closed technique, you do have the option to flashblind the unknown with a quick spotlight, then turn the light back off and move to a different position, using the eye you had closed while he tries to reorient both his flashblinded eyes.

I'm not too keen on holding a steady light on the guy; it illuminates him, but it also tells him where to fire, even if he can't see you. Spray and pray around arm's length from the light by the BG can ruin your day.

Glenn E. Meyer · August 4, 2009, 10:09 AM

This is a technical disagreement. Both of you are going to be discombobulated by a really bright light. Whether the differential between lighted and lightee makes a difference is an empirical question. I know that I was toasted by the 9P when fully dark adapted.

Also, maintain eye discipline in a dynamic situation might be difficult under stress. Which eye goes to the sights?

I'm not enamored with the blinding concept. My experience with guys using nights as they entered is that it makes you a big target. If you are flashing away from me, so I'm not blinded - I shoot you.

Sounds great for a head on opponent close up but that's it. Cynical me.

BTW - we are hijacking Kayla's thread. So:

1. Ignore the advice that tells a newbie to get a shotgun. Gun world cliche.
2. I forgot if you bought a gun. If you haven't get a quality 38 SPL or 357 revolver - load it with some 38 SPL defensive ammo.
3. Read the www.corneredcat.com
4. Get training from a reasonable and reputable outfit near you - women's course if you can to avoid commandos.

MLeake · August 4, 2009, 08:36 PM

Out of curiosity, Kayla, did you ever get a security type camera, or even a small fiber-optic, to record this person's movement around your entryway? It seems to me that since he's a repeat offender, you might get some video of him and the cops might then be able to identify him.

R1145 · August 4, 2009, 09:27 PM

Quote:

R1145, I think you probably mean yards, here, not feet...

My bad, I stand corrected. Rule of thumb = 1" of spread per yard of range.

Evan Thomas · August 5, 2009, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer

BTW - we are hijacking Kayla's thread

Quote:

Originally Posted by MLeake

Out of curiosity, Kayla...

Er, no... actually you were hijacking Kjeil's thread. Kayla's thread is over here.

MLeake · August 5, 2009, 05:17 PM

... or the ill effects of typing when fatigued...

Sorry.

rdhrt · August 5, 2009, 07:56 PM

I have always thought my shotgun first in home that is,otherwise it is rifle first,handgun second choice.

45Gunner · August 10, 2009, 05:02 PM

Shotgun is the great equalizer. It is very easy to second guess and everyone has their two cents to add which is really great. The truth of the matter is that unless one is a combat veteran of either a war or the street, the reality of a face to face gun battle is not a pleasant prospect. You are nervous and scared and believe me the perp or perps are too. Your great advantage is that you know the house.

I keep and handgun on the night table and an AR -15 and a Shotgun on a rack above the bed. If I hear things go bump in the night, I grab the shotgun. In my particular case, the bedrooms are on the second floor. My dog always alerts me when something is not right...sometimes its just a stray cat running thru the yard. The point being is that in the dead of night, I'm not fully awake and may not be able to fully comprehend what is going on. My shotgun will make up for my shortcomings.

Stevie-Ray · August 10, 2009, 05:07 PM

Quote:

The point being is that in the dead of night, I'm not fully awake and may not be able to fully comprehend what is going on. My shotgun will make up for my shortcomings.

Hmmm....OK, I'll bite. How does it do that, exactly?

one-shot-one · August 12, 2009, 11:47 AM

when:
1. all those in front of me are BG's.
2. i believe most/all targets will be inside of 30 yards.
3. i believe that i will NOT have to move very far away from my ammo supply.

buzz_knox · August 12, 2009, 12:03 PM

Quote:

The point being is that in the dead of night, I'm not fully awake and may not be able to fully comprehend what is going on. My shotgun will make up for my shortcomings.

I presume you mean that shotgun's mythical ability to hit vital areas without even an attempt at aiming will make up for your not being fully awake. In such a situation, the first question is why are you shooting to begin with?

BloodyBucket03 · August 13, 2009, 01:19 AM

I have my Mossberg 500 by my bed in arms length reach. It's my first choice for HD Defense. I have my other firearms locked in the safe. I have a surefire mounted on it for bumps in the middle of the night.

August 1, 2009, 12:04 AM	#77
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Armsmaster I did courses of fire where we either had police cruisers behind us with the lightbars flashing for a multicolored strobe effect while we advanced around barriers into a darkened target area (simulating raid on bad guys), or sentry spotlights streaking back and forth over a perimeter while we engaged targets in the dark areas inside the inner edge of the spotlight tracks (simulating defense against raid by bad guys). A lot of people had orientation issues with the multi-colored strobes. For some reason, those really didn't bother me at all. But one doesn't really appreciate the effects of muzzle blast on vision until one shoots in the dark. Cheers, M

August 1, 2009, 11:10 AM	#79
Evan Thomas Senior Member Join Date: July 7, 2008 Location: Upper midwest Posts: 5,631	Thanks, Stevie-Ray! Right you are. (It's the science background... you're taught to hedge on practically everything. ) __________________ Never let anything mechanical know you're in a hurry.

August 1, 2009, 11:25 AM	#80
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Hair cells - cochlea - hey, who doesn't say we aren't running a high class joint. About flash - also think about your flashlight. Strap a big honker on your gun. It will blind your opponent. So as an experiment - I get up in the middle of the night - totally target adapted. I take my Surefire 9P - which I can mount on my AR. I go in the walkin closet - totally pitch black and aim the flashlight light down the aisle. I trigger it and BOOM! My eyes shut violently and all I see for a few minutes is rows of shirts and shoes. I would have been better off in the ambient light in the house from outdoor moonlight and using the Eotech. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

August 3, 2009, 11:55 AM	#83
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Pilot trick for keeping night vision in presence of bright lighting... ... is to keep one eye closed when lights come up, then reopen it after light goes out. Does a decent job of keeping the eye that was closed adapted for night - the process of adapting can otherwise take around 30 minutes, according to flight physiologists.

August 3, 2009, 04:01 PM	#85
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	The pilot trick negates the use of the tactical light. You want to see your opponent. So if you have one eye open, it gets blasted in my scenario of light splash as it is called. If you open the other eye after turning off the light - the light isn't there anymore. Unless, you think the light is like a flash bang - it doesn't help to shut an eye. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

July 31, 2009, 10:17 PM	#76
thmsmgnm Member Join Date: February 23, 2008 Posts: 35	Remington 870.

August 2, 2009, 12:28 AM	#81
Slopemeno Senior Member Join Date: January 19, 2007 Posts: 2,663	Good point, and something you need to be aware of when you use a flashlight is to make sure you have the flashlight around the corner when it comes on- flat white walls reflect a lot of light. I've shot 12 gauge magnums indoors, in the dark. Yes, they're loud and have a nice dull orange flash, but I'll take that over a .357 any day.

August 3, 2009, 11:46 AM	#82
TXSyKo Member Join Date: June 19, 2009 Posts: 16	12 guage oo buck inside. .30-30 for outside critters. .45acp as a back-up. I have a 116lb furry property alarm system that will give me time to grab the ol' Mossberg propped up next to the bed.

August 3, 2009, 04:54 PM	#86
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Not really, Glenn The tactical light isn't just to illuminate and identify; it's also a non-lethal weapon, in the sense that you can blind him even worse than you hinder your own vision. Even if your open eye gets momentarily blinded, it should adapt to the light before the BG/unknown's do, since your eye is receiving reflected light whereas his eyes are receiving direct light. It shouldn't take too long for your illuminated eye to adjust sufficiently for a quick ID of friendly vs intruder. Unless your eyes are particularly light sensitive, that is. Meanwhile, if you decide to keep the light on, you can always open the other eye too. I don't have the same problems adjusting to reflected light from my SureFire that you describe; I do find that it defeats my night sights, because the reflected light usually puts my sights in sharp silhouette. However, using the one eye closed technique, you do have the option to flashblind the unknown with a quick spotlight, then turn the light back off and move to a different position, using the eye you had closed while he tries to reorient both his flashblinded eyes. I'm not too keen on holding a steady light on the guy; it illuminates him, but it also tells him where to fire, even if he can't see you. Spray and pray around arm's length from the light by the BG can ruin your day.

August 4, 2009, 10:09 AM	#87
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	This is a technical disagreement. Both of you are going to be discombobulated by a really bright light. Whether the differential between lighted and lightee makes a difference is an empirical question. I know that I was toasted by the 9P when fully dark adapted. Also, maintain eye discipline in a dynamic situation might be difficult under stress. Which eye goes to the sights? I'm not enamored with the blinding concept. My experience with guys using nights as they entered is that it makes you a big target. If you are flashing away from me, so I'm not blinded - I shoot you. Sounds great for a head on opponent close up but that's it. Cynical me. BTW - we are hijacking Kayla's thread. So: 1. Ignore the advice that tells a newbie to get a shotgun. Gun world cliche. 2. I forgot if you bought a gun. If you haven't get a quality 38 SPL or 357 revolver - load it with some 38 SPL defensive ammo. 3. Read the www.corneredcat.com 4. Get training from a reasonable and reputable outfit near you - women's course if you can to avoid commandos. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

August 4, 2009, 08:36 PM	#88
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Video cameras Out of curiosity, Kayla, did you ever get a security type camera, or even a small fiber-optic, to record this person's movement around your entryway? It seems to me that since he's a repeat offender, you might get some video of him and the cops might then be able to identify him.

August 5, 2009, 05:17 PM	#91
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Man, talk about thread veer... ... or the ill effects of typing when fatigued... Sorry.

August 5, 2009, 07:56 PM	#92
rdhrt Member Join Date: June 23, 2009 Posts: 22	I have always thought my shotgun first in home that is,otherwise it is rifle first,handgun second choice.

August 10, 2009, 05:02 PM	#93
45Gunner Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2009 Location: Boca Raton, FL Posts: 1,902	Shotgun is the great equalizer. It is very easy to second guess and everyone has their two cents to add which is really great. The truth of the matter is that unless one is a combat veteran of either a war or the street, the reality of a face to face gun battle is not a pleasant prospect. You are nervous and scared and believe me the perp or perps are too. Your great advantage is that you know the house. I keep and handgun on the night table and an AR -15 and a Shotgun on a rack above the bed. If I hear things go bump in the night, I grab the shotgun. In my particular case, the bedrooms are on the second floor. My dog always alerts me when something is not right...sometimes its just a stray cat running thru the yard. The point being is that in the dead of night, I'm not fully awake and may not be able to fully comprehend what is going on. My shotgun will make up for my shortcomings. __________________ 45Gunner May the Schwartz Be With You. NRA Instructor NRA Life Member

August 12, 2009, 11:47 AM	#95
one-shot-one Senior Member Join Date: November 1, 2002 Location: texas Posts: 129	shotgun 1st when: 1. all those in front of me are BG's. 2. i believe most/all targets will be inside of 30 yards. 3. i believe that i will NOT have to move very far away from my ammo supply.

August 13, 2009, 01:19 AM	#97
BloodyBucket03 Senior Member Join Date: August 24, 2005 Location: Wake Forest, North Carolina Posts: 188	When would a shotgun be your first choice? I have my Mossberg 500 by my bed in arms length reach. It's my first choice for HD Defense. I have my other firearms locked in the safe. I have a surefire mounted on it for bumps in the middle of the night. __________________ "Better to fight for something than live for nothing."-General George S. Patton "He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and "if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buyone.'' Luke 22:36