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Old May 24, 2001, 08:46 AM   #1
Dave McC
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I had a correspondent take me to task recently about clay games and real world applications, so here it is....

Back when I was instructing, I noted that the only rookies that moved past bare minimum proficiency were those that shot recreationally, which meant hunting and the various clay games, Sporting Clays, Trap, Skeet, and the various serious games,which I guess these days would include CAS.

The more they shot, the better they shot, regardless of game.IOW, the trap shot hitting the range twice weekly would shoot better than the guy who went dove hunting once or twice a year, and maybe did a goose hunt or two also, all else equal.

The critical issue seems to be getting used to the handling and firing of the shotgun, not the specific game.

Example, the doubles found in Sporting Clays,Skeet and Trap Doubles teaches one to acquire a target quickly, deal with it and proceeding to another target immediately. Can anyone visualize this being of value in dealing with multiple assailants?

Or, going after those rabbit targets as a means of improving on targets that might be changing direction and speed?

One buddy that uses a GR sighted pump gun for deer hunting claims that his success rate on rapidly moving whitetails(he drive hunts) went way up after using a shotgun similar to his deer gun but with bead for those rabbit targets for about 5 years of SCs. I believe him...

As for trap, the most rigid and stylized of the games with its premounted high gun and specialized equipment, ever note how long it takes for an experienced trap shot to engage the target after it exits the house? Most are broken or missed in 1-3 seconds,IMO.

My Trap 870TB weighs a little less than my HD 870, and about the same as my 20" bbled, extended mag Deer 870 that doubles as backup HD out of season. While the balance is different, it's not WAY different and the controls are all the same,so continuity and consistency are there.

I see a hand up at the back of the room...

"But, in games you're firing a light target load while "Serious" ammo runs heavy, fast and hard kicking. What's up with that?"...

In adrenaline producing situations,I never feel kick.It's still there, but it's not noticed. And, recent improvements have given us ammo that's not hard kicking but is effective, like the Estate 00 SWAT ammo and the KO Brennekes.If I blindfolded you and had you fire off a load or two(One Estate 00, one 1 1/8 oz, 3 1/4 dr field load) from an 8 lb or heavier shotgun, I doubt you could tell the type by the kick.I doubt I could either....

And, the old Govt database shows no difference in load for effectiveness at typical engagement ranges. One shot, one perp stopped.

Questions,comments?
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Old May 24, 2001, 12:29 PM   #2
C.R.Sam
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Dave, good write. Agree that the more fun shootin you do the gooder you git.

Long ago, before sporting clays caught on, we had what we called a "joker" trap. Birds would come out going in any direction including straight up or AT the shooter. Liability probably precludes such in these days. Also, used to shoot trap with the butt at the hip when callin for a bird.

I like to think that the shootin games paid off durin the Indo China matches.

Sam
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Old May 24, 2001, 12:58 PM   #3
K80Geoff
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Practice, Practice,Practice...

I believe that it was Chuck Yeager who said that the best fighter pilots were men who had been hunters prior to becoming pilots. They knew how to lead a target properly.

Practice in necessary for any sport. If you shoot regularly you will improve, regardless if it is Shotgun, Pistol or Rifle.

I shudder to think that many LEOs are running around with loaded weapons and rarely fire them, let alone practice proper shooting stances etc. Had a friend who kept failing the sergeants exam because he could not pass the practical part of the test, which included a type of "Hogans Alley" scenario that required him to make instant Shoot/no Shoot decisions. He did not like guns

Some time ago I was at the local indoor range. The owner (Retired LEO) told me to wait untill a certain shooter was through before I entered the range. Apparently the shooter, a captain on the local jails staff, was known to be a bit unsafe on the range. The owner joked that he could not afford to loose a good customer (Me apparently)

When the shooter left the owner wiped his brow in mock relief and told me to proceed into the range.

Another sporting clays shooter I know is an FBI agent. I would not want to go up against him in a gunfight, he knows his business when it comes to shooting.

I guess you find both kinds in law enforcement.


Geoff Ross
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Old May 24, 2001, 04:45 PM   #4
PJR
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If memory serves it was the legendary Vince Lombardi that said, "Practice doesn't make perfect; perfect practice makes perfect." If all one ever shot were defensive shotgun games (e.g. IPSC IDPA) with the same frequency as most guys shoot trap, he would probably (stress probably) be better in a real life situation than the typical trapshooter. But without question, the clays shooter does, for all the reasons Dave noted, have the edge on the person who goes out to qualify once or twice a year. In addition to being more familiar with handling and firing shotguns, the clays shooter by his very nature is more interested in the subject of guns that someone for whom shooting is just a part of the job.

The only time clays shooting was a disadvantage to me was in my early hunting days. I'd shot a lot of clays before I began to shoot live birds and the first time a pheasant flushed he flew toward me. In the habit of mounting the gun and shooting instantly upon seeing the target, I tripped the trigger with the bird about ten feet off my muzzle. When my partner stopped laughing at the sight of me covered in feathers and bird guts, he wryly suggested that I could let them get out a bit before shooting.
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Old May 24, 2001, 08:41 PM   #5
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Very informative post, Dave.

I shoot trap at the Gun Club outdoor range. It,s kind of disapointing to me, because I don't like standing there with an empty gun, load one shell, shoulder the shotgun, and yell pull. It's O.K. as far as getting out and shooting with friends, but not the kind of practice I want. One shell, one bird, one miss out of every three. I guess it's good practice for learning how to lead (which I need) but it lacks practicality.

I'm going to look around this summer and try to find a place I can shoot Sporting Clays. That sounds like fun.

The most fun I have breaking clays is when the boys and I go to the range with a little thrower mounted on a weighted board. We shoot with the shotgun full and at low ready. We throw singles and doubles at every angle possible. The oldest boy(22) loves to put six or seven rounds in the shotgun and blast away till the bird explodes or hits the ground. He can actually empty the gun if a bird gets away from him. He's not big on acuracy, but he loves to burn up the ammo. My younger son(19) and I just about die laughing when the older boy lets fly with shot #6 as the bird skims down to earth, unscathed. I must confess I do my share of double taps and an occasional triple tap.

We always stress safety, but it is fun. Good practice, too, I think.
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Old May 25, 2001, 06:44 AM   #6
Dave McC
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Thanks, folks, a coupla things...

Sam, they did pay off for me.

Geoff, the FBI was responsible for some of my instruction. At that time, and probably now, ALL agents were/are great shots. They had an unlimited ammo budget and lots of training.

PJR, I know of no IPSC,etc types going through a case of ammo a week. I know a few trapshooters doing 3-4 cases a week.And we've all taken a shot too fast on game...

And, try trap doubles sometimes for working on your target acquisition skills.

Erick, it DOES work, and I hope you get them another outdoor range PDQ.

AR 10, try doubles if you're unsure of the utility of trap for "Serious" situations. W/o wanting to offend, I also suggest you learn to hit most if not all of those trap birds before dumping on trap's practical applications.

And...

Try shooting trap from a low gun position and/or empty. Call for the bird, load one round, fire and hit. Repeat.

Or, if your range will allow it, keep the magazine topped off and shoot one, load one, like Erick's deputies did.
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Old May 25, 2001, 05:45 PM   #7
AR-10
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Dave,

Wasn't tryinng to dump on trap.

Where I shoot, they only shoot singles. You are only allowed to load one round just prior to mounting the gun. You are not allowed to shoot from low ready. I average 18 out of 25. This does leave room for improvement, but it is boring and frustrating. I just think it has little bearing on hunting or self defense, other than the fact that it teaches you how to lead and follow through.

I realize that I have room to grow as far as acuracy is concerned, but I don't think that the way that I shoot trap is ingraining the skills that I want. After twenty years of shooting like this, I would be more concerned about catching the ejected shell and putting it in my pocket than racking the slide for round #2. That's why I have a hankering to try sporting clays.
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Old May 26, 2001, 09:24 AM   #8
Dave McC
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AR/10, even single trap has you and I doing the unconscious and complicated procedure of hitting something moving fast with a swarm of lead pellets moving faster. How far do you lead a hard left from Post 1, or a hard right from 5? I know I'm in front of the clay when I slap the trigger,but don't ask me to quantify it. And I hit most of them these days. Scores for my last 3 rounds were 24, 22 and 25. Yup, ran them for the first time.

However, ideally a variety of shotgunning activities would aid one to become truly proficient, but most of us have to settle for what we can get, depending on family, means, location, etc.

As for boring and frustrating, I'll bet a case of your favorite beverage that if you worked on form, got your stock exactly right for you, and started busting them to the point where you were running a round every so often,you'd not find it either boring or frustrating.

And, my guess is that unless your location is truly remote, there's more shooting opportunities within a reasonable drive than you may think. Check around...
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Old May 26, 2001, 12:25 PM   #9
PJR
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I agree with Dave. The more you start to shoot better scores the more you get into trap. Comparing the games to hunting, I find trap the best for getting ready to upland hunt particularly if you shoot it low gun. The birds are flying away and come out at random angles.

Congrats on the first 25 Dave. Did they shoot your hat?

Paul

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Old May 26, 2001, 03:14 PM   #10
Big Bear
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Congratulations on your first 25, Dave! Are you going to get a patch? As for me, I'm still working on that elusive perfect score. My best is a 24, but I usually shoot low 20s on good days and high teens on not so good days. I tend to like skeet a little more than trap, and I shoot more when it gets closer to the dove opener, low gun, all doubles. I think of it as training my "bird hunting" muscles.
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Old May 26, 2001, 04:52 PM   #11
AR-10
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Thanks for the advice Dave. As a matter of fact I do need to get my stock properly fitted. I am lucky in that three of the older shooters that I shoot with used to compete at the national level and are more than happy to patiently give advice and guidance.
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Old May 27, 2001, 08:39 AM   #12
Dave McC
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Thanks, folks...

Paul, wasn't wearing a hat. And I had the range to myself, even the trapper had wandered off in search of shade. Did get a patch, my credibility seem to be good there(G).

AR, Stock fit and gun mount(Dependent in part on fit) are the big physical reasons for either hitting or missing. The mental aspect is another thing.

As for the games, trap reminds me of pheasant and quail hunting, skeet of doves/teal. Both are excellent practice.

I suggest at least a few rounds of either game prior to the season with your hunting shotgun, low gun.

BB, keep on with it.Work on the basics, including focus, it'll come...

And,as for older trapshooters, there's a library of knowledge in every one. We should listen and learn....
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Old May 27, 2001, 10:04 AM   #13
C.R.Sam
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Goodonya Dave for the straight.

Sam
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Old May 28, 2001, 08:09 PM   #14
Dave McC
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Thanks!!
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