Ati wire stock removal legal?

Salps · January 7, 2013, 07:34 PM

Can I remove wire butt stock portion of this stock and still be legal? I'm in washington.

Thanks Scott

tmorone · January 7, 2013, 09:36 PM

Short answer= No.

Long answer- It's currently set up as a rifle and you can't ever go from a rifle to a pistol. If it was a pistol, and you wanted to put at stock on it (assuming that barrel is 16+" it would be fine. But rifle -> pistol = bad times.

David Hineline · January 8, 2013, 12:24 AM

As long as the barrel is longer than 16" and the overall length of the firearm is more than 26" you can remove the collapsing part.

Salps · January 8, 2013, 08:26 AM

Barrel is over 16 inches and overall length is 27 inches.

Anybody got a link that states this would be a legal firearm without the wire butt stock?
Thanks Scott

Willie Sutton · January 8, 2013, 08:35 AM

Let's think this thru guys.... put on the thinking cap:

If it's as long with the stock removed as it is folded... it's legal to remove it.

If it does not make 26 inches FOLDED then it's illegal to begin with. <duh!>

Stock folded or stock removed it needs to have 16 inch BBL and be 26 LOA.

Makes no difference what length it is with stock extended.....

Willie

.

Salps · January 8, 2013, 08:52 AM

Overall length with stock collapsed is 36 inches, there is tabs on wire to prevent it from collapsing all the way... So where does that leave me on whether this is legal. Just want to make sure I am within the law on this one.

Brian Pfleuger · January 8, 2013, 10:28 AM

16" barrel and 26" long. All that matters.

Salps · January 8, 2013, 10:56 AM

I was mistaken barrel is 18 inches according to Wiki.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_carbine

Does that make any difference?

Brian Pfleuger · January 8, 2013, 11:08 AM

16" barrel (or longer) and 26" (or longer) total length, that's all that matters.

David Hineline · January 8, 2013, 05:40 PM

Willie while some states measure a collapsing or folding stock while folded at the federal level it is measured fully extended.

Willie Sutton · January 8, 2013, 07:03 PM

^^ citation please?

Example: 16 inch BBl but with stock retracted measuring 22 inches... ?

Don't think the Feds would like that one bit. I'd love to see a citation otherwise.

Willie

.

Bill DeShivs · January 8, 2013, 08:13 PM

Mr. Hineline is correct. There was a ruling for the Uzi (I think) carbine with folding stock. OAL was 24" and ATF ruled it legal.

Willie Sutton · January 8, 2013, 08:23 PM

^^ thanks.

Would like to see the citation to see what exactly was defined.

Good info, thanks to both of you.

Willie

.

Salps · January 9, 2013, 08:12 AM

Well still unsure if it would be legal. Kinda a grey area, seems like a trap. Not sure I want to go there yet... I have asked this question on a couple of forums and spoke to ATF, still no real answer.

Thanks Scott

Brian Pfleuger · January 9, 2013, 08:50 AM

I guess it depends on what you consider a "real answer".

Salps · January 9, 2013, 08:56 AM

Guess if that means ATF cannot give me a "real answer" than I understand.

Brian Pfleuger · January 9, 2013, 09:54 AM

As far as ATF regulations, the answer you have here is exactly correct.

If its a rifle, you must maintain a 16" barrel and 26" total length. As long as you do that, by ATF regulations, you are completely, indisputably legal.

If you want to figure it all out for yourself, look up these laws:

26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3): DEFINITIONS (FIREARM )
26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4): DEFINITIONS (FIREARM)
26 U.S.C. 5845(c): DEFINITIONS (RIFLE)
27 CFR 479.11: DEFINITIONS (RIFLE)
27 CFR 479.11: DEFINITIONS (PISTOL)

Salps · January 9, 2013, 10:46 AM

So to clarify if my barrel is 18 inches long "factory barrel". Over length of entire rifle, measured from end of barrel to end of rear grip is 26 3/4 inches and has no collapsable butt stock it would be considered legal?

Brian Pfleuger · January 9, 2013, 11:08 AM

Yes.

Let me give you the long answer...

It's contrary to popular usage, but your rifle is not a "firearm" by ATF regulations and what you have to do is keep it from BEING a "firearm"...

What you have, is a "rifle", 26 U.S.C. 5845(c):

(c) Rifle
The term “rifle” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire a fixed cartridge.

As long as it REMAINS a "rifle", you are legal by ATF rules. It will become a "firearm" if:

26 U.S.C. 5845
(a) Firearm
The term “firearm” means
(1) a shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length;
(2) a weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length;
(3) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;
(4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;

Those lengths are defined by:

Title 27: § 479.11 Meaning of terms.

Firearm. (a) A shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (b) a weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (c) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (d) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (e) any other weapon, as defined in this subpart; (f) a machine gun; (g) a muffler or a silencer for any firearm whether or not such firearm is included within this definition; and (h) a destructive device. The term shall not include an antique firearm or any device (other than a machine gun or destructive device) which, although designed as a weapon, the Director finds by reason of the date of its manufacture, value, design, and other characteristics is primarily a collector's item and is not likely to be used as a weapon. For purposes of this definition, the length of the barrel having an integral chamber(s) on a shotgun or rifle shall be determined by measuring the distance between the muzzle and the face of the bolt, breech, or breech block when closed and when the shotgun or rifle is cocked. The overall length of a weapon made from a shotgun or rifle is the distance between the extreme ends of the weapon measured along a line parallel to the center line of the bore.

mingheemouse · January 10, 2013, 03:09 PM

On the direct BATFE citation regarding measurement of overall length with the stock folded or extended, the weapon in question was the old "Marble's Game Getter" with an underfolding wire stock. The correct answer has already been given here (the ATF measure with stock extended), and this is merely being provided as a reference to BATFE source material.

Quote taken from From:
ATF E-Publication 5320.8
Revised: April 2009
Page 9

"NOTE: One version of the Marble’s Game Getter was produced with 18-inch barrels and a folding shoulder stock. This model of the Game Getter, as manufactured, is not subject to the provisions of the NFA because it has barrels that are 18 inches in length and the overall length of the firearm, with stock extended, is more than 26 inches. However, if the shoulder stock has been removed from the 18-inch barrel version of the Game Getter, the firearm has an overall length of less than 26 inches and is an NFA weapon. Specifically, the firearm is classified as a weapon made from a rifle/shotgun."

m&p45acp10+1 · January 10, 2013, 06:55 PM

If you want a pistol gripped M1 Carbine without the stock check gun broker for a reproduction m1 carbine pistol. Plainfield made one, they were bought out by Iver Johnson, and continued to make them for a long time. They can be found for reasonable prices. Also they have a shorter overal length becasue they were made a handguns.

Salps · January 10, 2013, 07:37 PM

Remember I want to remove the wire portion of the butt stock. Over all length of the rifle without the wire butt stock is 26 3/4. This was measured from end of barrel in a straight line along the barrel to the end of the bottom of the pistol grip not the back of the upper part of grip.
Thanks Scott

mingheemouse · January 11, 2013, 10:32 AM

"The overall length of a firearm is the distance between the muzzle of the barrel and the rearmost portion of the weapon measured on a line parallel to the axis of the bore." - ATF E-Publication 5320.8, Revised: April 2009, Page 7

If yours is over 26", measured in this manner, you should be fine.

January 7, 2013, 07:34 PM	#1
Salps Junior Member Join Date: January 7, 2013 Posts: 11	Ati wire stock removal legal? Can I remove wire butt stock portion of this stock and still be legal? I'm in washington. Thanks Scott

January 8, 2013, 08:26 AM	#4
Salps Junior Member Join Date: January 7, 2013 Posts: 11	M1 stock Barrel is over 16 inches and overall length is 27 inches. Anybody got a link that states this would be a legal firearm without the wire butt stock? Thanks Scott

January 8, 2013, 08:52 AM	#6
Salps Junior Member Join Date: January 7, 2013 Posts: 11	M1 stock Overall length with stock collapsed is 36 inches, there is tabs on wire to prevent it from collapsing all the way... So where does that leave me on whether this is legal. Just want to make sure I am within the law on this one.

January 8, 2013, 10:56 AM	#8
Salps Junior Member Join Date: January 7, 2013 Posts: 11	M1 stock I was mistaken barrel is 18 inches according to Wiki. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_carbine Does that make any difference?

January 8, 2013, 11:08 AM	#9
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	16" barrel (or longer) and 26" (or longer) total length, that's all that matters. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

January 7, 2013, 09:36 PM	#2
tmorone Senior Member Join Date: October 22, 2010 Posts: 221	Short answer= No. Long answer- It's currently set up as a rifle and you can't ever go from a rifle to a pistol. If it was a pistol, and you wanted to put at stock on it (assuming that barrel is 16+" it would be fine. But rifle -> pistol = bad times.

January 8, 2013, 12:24 AM	#3
David Hineline Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 1999 Location: South Sioux City, Nebraska Posts: 704	As long as the barrel is longer than 16" and the overall length of the firearm is more than 26" you can remove the collapsing part.

January 8, 2013, 08:35 AM	#5
Willie Sutton Junior member Join Date: January 26, 2012 Posts: 1,066	Let's think this thru guys.... put on the thinking cap: If it's as long with the stock removed as it is folded... it's legal to remove it. If it does not make 26 inches FOLDED then it's illegal to begin with. <duh!> Stock folded or stock removed it needs to have 16 inch BBL and be 26 LOA. Makes no difference what length it is with stock extended..... Willie .

January 8, 2013, 10:28 AM	#7
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	16" barrel and 26" long. All that matters.

January 8, 2013, 05:40 PM	#10
David Hineline Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 1999 Location: South Sioux City, Nebraska Posts: 704	Willie while some states measure a collapsing or folding stock while folded at the federal level it is measured fully extended.

January 8, 2013, 07:03 PM	#11
Willie Sutton Junior member Join Date: January 26, 2012 Posts: 1,066	^^ citation please? Example: 16 inch BBl but with stock retracted measuring 22 inches... ? Don't think the Feds would like that one bit. I'd love to see a citation otherwise. Willie .

January 8, 2013, 08:13 PM	#12
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,981	Mr. Hineline is correct. There was a ruling for the Uzi (I think) carbine with folding stock. OAL was 24" and ATF ruled it legal. __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

January 8, 2013, 08:23 PM	#13
Willie Sutton Junior member Join Date: January 26, 2012 Posts: 1,066	^^ thanks. Would like to see the citation to see what exactly was defined. Good info, thanks to both of you. Willie .

January 9, 2013, 08:12 AM	#14
Salps Junior Member Join Date: January 7, 2013 Posts: 11	M1 stock Well still unsure if it would be legal. Kinda a grey area, seems like a trap. Not sure I want to go there yet... I have asked this question on a couple of forums and spoke to ATF, still no real answer. Thanks Scott

January 9, 2013, 08:50 AM	#15
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	I guess it depends on what you consider a "real answer".

January 9, 2013, 08:56 AM	#16
Salps Junior Member Join Date: January 7, 2013 Posts: 11	M1 stock Guess if that means ATF cannot give me a "real answer" than I understand.

January 9, 2013, 09:54 AM	#17
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	As far as ATF regulations, the answer you have here is exactly correct. If its a rifle, you must maintain a 16" barrel and 26" total length. As long as you do that, by ATF regulations, you are completely, indisputably legal. If you want to figure it all out for yourself, look up these laws: 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3): DEFINITIONS (FIREARM ) 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4): DEFINITIONS (FIREARM) 26 U.S.C. 5845(c): DEFINITIONS (RIFLE) 27 CFR 479.11: DEFINITIONS (RIFLE) 27 CFR 479.11: DEFINITIONS (PISTOL)

January 9, 2013, 10:46 AM	#18
Salps Junior Member Join Date: January 7, 2013 Posts: 11	So to clarify if my barrel is 18 inches long "factory barrel". Over length of entire rifle, measured from end of barrel to end of rear grip is 26 3/4 inches and has no collapsable butt stock it would be considered legal?

January 9, 2013, 11:08 AM	#19
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	Yes. Let me give you the long answer... It's contrary to popular usage, but your rifle is not a "firearm" by ATF regulations and what you have to do is keep it from BEING a "firearm"... What you have, is a "rifle", 26 U.S.C. 5845(c): (c) Rifle The term “rifle” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire a fixed cartridge. As long as it REMAINS a "rifle", you are legal by ATF rules. It will become a "firearm" if: 26 U.S.C. 5845 (a) Firearm The term “firearm” means (1) a shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (2) a weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (3) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; Those lengths are defined by: Title 27: § 479.11 Meaning of terms. Firearm. (a) A shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (b) a weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (c) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (d) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (e) any other weapon, as defined in this subpart; (f) a machine gun; (g) a muffler or a silencer for any firearm whether or not such firearm is included within this definition; and (h) a destructive device. The term shall not include an antique firearm or any device (other than a machine gun or destructive device) which, although designed as a weapon, the Director finds by reason of the date of its manufacture, value, design, and other characteristics is primarily a collector's item and is not likely to be used as a weapon. For purposes of this definition, the length of the barrel having an integral chamber(s) on a shotgun or rifle shall be determined by measuring the distance between the muzzle and the face of the bolt, breech, or breech block when closed and when the shotgun or rifle is cocked. The overall length of a weapon made from a shotgun or rifle is the distance between the extreme ends of the weapon measured along a line parallel to the center line of the bore. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

January 10, 2013, 03:09 PM	#20
mingheemouse Member Join Date: May 9, 2012 Location: Arizona Posts: 27	On the direct BATFE citation regarding measurement of overall length with the stock folded or extended, the weapon in question was the old "Marble's Game Getter" with an underfolding wire stock. The correct answer has already been given here (the ATF measure with stock extended), and this is merely being provided as a reference to BATFE source material. Quote taken from From: ATF E-Publication 5320.8 Revised: April 2009 Page 9 "NOTE: One version of the Marble’s Game Getter was produced with 18-inch barrels and a folding shoulder stock. This model of the Game Getter, as manufactured, is not subject to the provisions of the NFA because it has barrels that are 18 inches in length and the overall length of the firearm, with stock extended, is more than 26 inches. However, if the shoulder stock has been removed from the 18-inch barrel version of the Game Getter, the firearm has an overall length of less than 26 inches and is an NFA weapon. Specifically, the firearm is classified as a weapon made from a rifle/shotgun."

January 10, 2013, 06:55 PM	#21
m&p45acp10+1 Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2009 Location: Central Texas Posts: 3,930	If you want a pistol gripped M1 Carbine without the stock check gun broker for a reproduction m1 carbine pistol. Plainfield made one, they were bought out by Iver Johnson, and continued to make them for a long time. They can be found for reasonable prices. Also they have a shorter overal length becasue they were made a handguns. __________________ No matter how many times you do it and nothing happens it only takes something going wrong one time to kill you.

January 10, 2013, 07:37 PM	#22
Salps Junior Member Join Date: January 7, 2013 Posts: 11	M1 stock Remember I want to remove the wire portion of the butt stock. Over all length of the rifle without the wire butt stock is 26 3/4. This was measured from end of barrel in a straight line along the barrel to the end of the bottom of the pistol grip not the back of the upper part of grip. Thanks Scott

January 11, 2013, 10:32 AM	#23
mingheemouse Member Join Date: May 9, 2012 Location: Arizona Posts: 27	"The overall length of a firearm is the distance between the muzzle of the barrel and the rearmost portion of the weapon measured on a line parallel to the axis of the bore." - ATF E-Publication 5320.8, Revised: April 2009, Page 7 If yours is over 26", measured in this manner, you should be fine.