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Old October 19, 2013, 09:50 AM   #1
johnm1
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1861 Springfield - Load Data

I will be shooting my newly aquired 1861 Springfield Rifle this afternoon and would like some suggestions for a safe load. I understand that the standard military load for this rifle was 60 grains of black powder over a 500 grain minnie ball. Is that correct? A friend gave me some .575 minnies af varying weight to test with. I am new to the rifled black powder world and need to confirm the powder charge for each weight of minnie. Now maybe it doesn't really matter but here is what I was given for my test:

552 grain .579 diameter flat base
508 grain .575 hollow base
526 grain .575 hollow base
446 grain .575 flat base

I don't want to beat up the rifle but i do want to expand the base on the hollow base minnies. So any suggestions would be helpful. I think I understand that most use a 55 grain load of black powder over a 500 grain bullet. What I don't know is if black powder is as sensitive to changes in bullet weight as smokless is.

Todays test is to see if the .575 minnies will expand to engage the rifling or if i need a larger sized minnie as I expect I do.

Thanks.
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Old October 19, 2013, 10:29 AM   #2
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I use a Lyman Mold that casts a 510 grain minie to .577. I use 70 grains of powder. You might do ok with the .575's but they are a tad small and may move in the bore. Generally the best size is .001-.003 under bore size. The .579 solid bullet may do ok but the .575 is too small to give a tight fit in the bore.
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Old October 19, 2013, 10:39 AM   #3
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Thanks Hawg,

I plan to buy some larger minnies in different diameters to see what works best. Either from Track of the Wolf or there is a guy on Gunbroker who actually sells a package of different diameter minnies. I needed to function test and see what the .575's would do. I'm hoping to recover one of the minnies and see if i can determine the bore/groove diameter. I expect the base will be too deformed to actually get a decent measurement.

Thanks Again.
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Old October 19, 2013, 11:25 AM   #4
Mike Irwin
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A good "carbine" type load out of one of these guns is 40 to 45 grains of black powder.

It won't beat you up.
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Old October 19, 2013, 12:10 PM   #5
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Thanks Mike

my main concern is to not do any harm to the rifle. Is the amount of powder dependent on bullet weight? Also, is 2F the appropriate powder?
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Old October 19, 2013, 12:17 PM   #6
45long
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Quote:
I understand that the standard military load for this rifle was 60 grains of black powder over a 500 grain minnie ball. Is that correct?
I believe I'd put the Minnie ball over the powder if it were me ..Just saying
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Old October 19, 2013, 12:29 PM   #7
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Good point. Typing on a gen 1 I Touch and depending on how long the line is you can't always see what you just typed. Powder first.
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Old October 19, 2013, 01:23 PM   #8
Hawg
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Quote:
my main concern is to not do any harm to the rifle. Is the amount of powder dependent on bullet weight
You're not going to hurt the rifle. As for the powder charge being dependent on bullet weight, not so much. With minies too much powder will as they say blow the skirt. That doesn't mean the skirt will be blown apart or deformed. What it means is the pressure will blow past it before it has a chance to fully expand. Here's one of my recovered minies fired over 70 grains of Pyrodex.





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Old October 19, 2013, 05:17 PM   #9
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With the standard Minie I've always used the service load of 60 gr. of FFG. Hawg points out some excellent things. One thing - you want to make sure that what you are shooting fits the bore - too much slop and you'll know where you are hitting - just look for the "keyholes". And yes, I speak from experience on that!
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Old October 19, 2013, 11:43 PM   #10
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I have 4 different 58 cal rifles and typically use 90 grs of either FFFg or FFg powder under various minies for hunting loads. So don't worry about blowing the gun up. The biggest challenge is finding a minie that fits your individual bore. The 58s vary much more than the 54s. You don't want a minie that will slide out the barrel when you tip it down. Mine are used for hunting thus the heavy loads. I use heavy skirted minies like the 575213-OS and the 577611 Lyman minies. The LEE and other minies have thinner skirts and are more suited for target shooting.
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Old October 20, 2013, 12:33 AM   #11
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Well I took the 1861 Springfield to the desert for a function test. I always take a new old gun where I can shoot it alone for the first time. I figure if I loose a finger or an eye at least I shouldn't expose another to that risk until I know this 151 year old firearm is safe to shoot. Most times I will take it to the local smith. But this one is in such good shape I wasn't concerned for my safety. I wasn't willing to take that chance with another's safety though.

I don't have the ability to shoot groups at my place in the desert without significant set up. So I'll take it to the range tomorrow and see how well it can group. I am not hopeful though. The muzzle will allow a .575 Minnie to enter the first inch or so without touching the rifling. But resistace starts after the first inch and it is significant. There is a place 2/3 of the way to the breech where the resistance gets less. It doesnt seem these are good conditions for accuracy. Rifling is very strong and there is no pitting in the barrel that still has some shine in it. Function was ok. With a 50 grain load of 2f under a .575 Minnie I found the hammer on half cock after each shot. Weak spring I presume. Otherwise it functioned fine. I was able to recover 1 round from a straw bale we brought for that purpose. I will measure tomorrow if it is possible.

I will post my results after my range trip tomorrow morning. Post won't happen until tomorrow night though. Too much going on tomorrow.

I also function tested my newly acquired 1873 trapdoor with excellent results. It is going to the range tomorrow also. But that is another story.
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Old October 20, 2013, 07:34 AM   #12
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Quote:
I found the hammer on half cock after each shot.
Get a new nipple before anything else. Excessive blowback
through an oversize lower vent hole is contributing to (if not causing) that.

Quote:
... resistance starts after the first inch and it is significant.
Make sure the Minnie ball is covered (slathered) in lube. In the Winter
I recommend 3 parts (vegetable) Crisco /1 part beewax. Fully immerse
the gooved portion of the M-Ball in (melted) lube 2x to get in on thickly.

Those old Springfields will outlast your lifetime (and then some). I'm still shooting
a `63 Colt Special model I acquired in `82 (60g grains of 2F and a regulation weight/design
Lyman OldStyle Minnieball.) That combination killed a lot of men at considerable distance.

Last edited by mehavey; October 20, 2013 at 04:19 PM.
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Old October 21, 2013, 12:17 AM   #13
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I've gone up to 90 grains, but beyond 60 grains with a cast 500 grain Minie, my groups start opening up, so I keep it between 50 and 60 grains with good results.

I saw this unfired Armisport on consignment at a local store last year, and made an offer of $400. The store called the owner, he accepted and I went home with it. I understand Armisport is about the bottom of the barrel in 1861's, but the price was right! I cast my own bullets and run them through a sizer die I turned out, but I wish I hadn't polished it quite so much - they would be a better fit if they were a thousandth or so smaller. The first two or three, I can get down the barrel with little effort, but after that they get a bit harder, so instead of chancing a bent or broken rod, I use a hardwood dowel range rod with a formed brass tip and a small rawhide leather working "mallet" to keep from beating my hand up - mallet being a generous description, as it's only a few ounces. (tappity, tappity, tap, and it's down the barrel, not WHACK, WHACK, WHACK, WHACK, WHACK)

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Old October 21, 2013, 12:37 AM   #14
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I think you are correct Meheavy. The hole in the nipple is large. Full diameter of a toothpick. I find the center of the caps blown out.

The trip to the range turned out well. .575 minnies grouped ok at 50 yards. Around 3 inches with the battle sight. I think it may do better with .577. I'm going to order both from Track. Flat based .575 didn't do well. I got tumbling curve balls. Overall I am very happy. I wish I had both moretime and more minnies. I will order them now but won't be able to work with them until after Thanksgiving.

The trapdoor did very well at 50 yards using only the battle sight. 3 out of the 5 holes touched and the 2 that didn't weren't far and likely user induced.

Overall a good day at the range.
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Old October 21, 2013, 09:11 AM   #15
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Hi John,

If you like shooting Civil War era black powder guns, you might like shooting them in competition in the North-South Skirmish Association http://www.n-ssa.org. It's a blast.

You can see if there is a range holding matches near you here:

https://www.google.com/maps/ms?msid=...fe8b5c70&msa=0

Shooting these guns for target-grade accuracy is a bit of a black art. The first thing you will want to do is make sure you have a bullet sized to just fit your barrel. These guns vary in bore size even from the same manufacturer. I use a Lyman Lubrisizer to simultaneously size and lubricate my bullets. You can buy sizing dies for this lubrisizer from S&S Firearms.

My P53 Enfield with Whitacre barrel takes a .576 bullet, while my Pedersoli P58 takes a .578 bullet. The original Euroarms barrel on my P53 took a .584 bullet.

The second thing is to find the amount of powder that produces the most optimal group for that particular bullet.

I shoot a RCBS-Hodgdon bullet in my P53 with 48 grains of 2F Goex. You will almost certainly find optimal accuracy under 60 grains, but each gun is different.

Steve
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