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Old December 8, 2005, 12:42 AM   #1
Sir William
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Bi-Polar ? Shoot/Don't shoot

OK. Bi-Polar disorder. US Air Marshal had to kill one man in Miami with it. I know of many past barricaded suspects who were Bi-Polar and many suicides. I am thinking of a scenario as follows. You are in the mall shopping. You have just passed a high end cutlery shop. A man comes running out of the shop shouting for help. You notice blood drippng from a wound. A second man comes out of the shop. He is holding a large cleaver. He is wildeyed and breathing hard. He is looking around the area. He makes eye contact with you and starts forward straight at you. A third man suddenly runs out of the store shouting that the man is his brother, he is Bi-Polar and he needs help. Shoot or not? Why?
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Old December 8, 2005, 01:25 AM   #2
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sorry for brother but...

I can not help that the "crazy" brother (son, father, mom, uncle) is off of his meds or whatever the case may be, to me, the reason a person is running at me with a cleaver (gun, knife, sharp stick, etc.) does not matter. My only concern is eliminating that threat. I would give the person a verbal warning ( if I had time) and order him to drop to the weapon. If no immediate compliance, then I shoot. His mental deficciency or disorder or whatever you want to call does not make it ok to harm others, especially me or my family.
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Old December 8, 2005, 01:38 AM   #3
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Never mind.
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Old December 8, 2005, 02:10 AM   #4
HBjeff
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police have to deal with the situation all the time. they shoot.


if a man was charging at me with a large knife and i felt in danger of great bodily injury or death, i would feel justified in shooting.

i would feel very sad if he was a victim of mental disorder, surely it wasnt his fault, but my personal safety is just as important as his.
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Old December 8, 2005, 02:32 AM   #5
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It's too bad, but you gotta do what you gotta do. Do your best to calm him down (if you have time), and if you can't stop him verbally, pull the trigger.
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His mental deficciency or disorder or whatever you want to call does not make it ok to harm others
+1.

I guess a decent analogy would be a rabid animal. It dosn't matter if it can't help itself from attacking you, you still shoot it. It may be a normally docile creature, but that doesn't change the fact of the matter.
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Old December 8, 2005, 02:45 AM   #6
model 25
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Well when Wally and Beaver Cleaver come out of the knife shop and Wally wanting to chop people up then the Beaver better take charge and stop him if he wants his brother saved. If Wally has a knife and is within 21 feet of me acting aggressive he will want a blood transfusion and will be happy his brother Beaver is close by to give him one.

Reasons for aggression don't matter, he can be an Arab terrorist or a looney on Meth but as soon as he becomes a threat he needs ventilation.

25
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Old December 8, 2005, 02:54 AM   #7
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Well said 25.
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Old December 8, 2005, 07:52 AM   #8
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Rapidly increase his heft 180 grains at a time until he stops threatening behavior.
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Old December 8, 2005, 08:25 AM   #9
Weeg
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So what does an officer do?

Ask for a detailed medical history while the dude is reaching into his bag?!?!?


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Old December 8, 2005, 09:54 AM   #10
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Being off their meds makes them more dangerous not less dangerous !! If your life is in immediate danger you shoot !!! Regardless of the age, sex, medical history etc.
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Old December 8, 2005, 09:59 AM   #11
Musketeer
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Insanity may work as a defense in a courtroom with an unarmed defendant who is being watched by multiple armed court officers but it means absolutely nothing when a meat cleaver weilding lunatic is racing towards you.

"Sorry your brother was nuts, you shoudl have ensured he took his medication or had him commited for his and others' safety."
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Old December 8, 2005, 11:07 AM   #12
Doug.38PR
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at that moment, I don't care what is wrong with him, he is threatening me and has purposely given me ever reason to think that he will carry out his threat. BANG. I'll be sympathetic later.
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Old December 8, 2005, 11:17 AM   #13
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And here lies the problem with the mental health system in America ---- we did not provide good mental health systems 30 years ago so we abandoned that whole idea of hospitals and retreats for these folks except for people who are compleatly non-function and criminal and now have all of these folks lose in society trusting that they take their needed medication --- which as we all know does not always happen.

Anyway point is you or the cops shoot, it's the only option, you feel bad for the individual and blame their doctor / medical care.
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Old December 8, 2005, 11:23 AM   #14
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Yes, I'd shoot

...and be heartbroken later, especially since Middle Son has a history of bipolar disorder. That would be hideous.

One of the things I have encountered, both with my own son and with clients when I was a school psychologist, is the phenomenon of getting off meds when they're on an upswing. Not a "manic" episode necessarily; it may simply be a matter of having been nice and stable and normal for quite awhile. The person then thinks, "Great, I'm cured" and gets off the meds (usually without even tapering the dose). Sometimes there is no backlash. Sometimes it takes a week or two and then they're back to clear bipolar symptoms.

Musketeer, you cannot "make" someone take their meds. Not over the age of about 8, anyway You can only have someone committed if they are an IMMINENT danger to their own or others' lives. Unless you are the legal guardian of a person (or their wife or husband) you can't even get info from their doctor about their condition.

The wife of this man could possibly have had a bit more latitude in having him committed IF he had been talking like this earlier, but no hospital would take hm if he wasn't pulled down off a bridge that he was about to jump from or overtly threatening death to others. Even psychotic episodes aren't going to do it unless they're violent or self-destructive.

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Old December 8, 2005, 11:27 AM   #15
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Quote:
Anyway point is you or the cops shoot, it's the only option, you feel bad for the individual and blame their doctor / medical care.
No, I don't blame much of anyone. This person voluntarily became a roaming bullet trap when they chose not to take their meds (when their mind was supposedly functioning fine), go to a knife shop in a mall knowing of his own bipolar disorder, and then succomb to his illness with a 5" cleaver in his hands.

Others may blame me for not having a bleeding heart, though.

This is a disfunctional person that is threatening everyone nearby, including myself. Back 100-150 years ago, these people were killed quickly, very close to age of majority for doing something incredibly stupid at some point. Now we coddle them.

Not saying I go out hunting these people, but it is a broken cog in our societal machine that is flinging shrapnel in my direction. Damn straight I'm gonna remove it from the machine, and not worry about it afterwards.
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Old December 8, 2005, 11:41 AM   #16
Glenn E. Meyer
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Springmom might appreciate this. I will go Behaviorist. I only care about the man's actions at the moment and not some unsubstantiated psychological construct. I need to apply the appropriate behavioral contingencies.

Since an armed man is threatening me, I don't care about why unless it gives me information that will produce a guaranteed stop. Thus, I will act in a way that gives me the best outcome for me.

Is there some reason for me to risk myself for him? If Grandma went off her meds and was doing the clever swinging, I might not 2 COM + 1 her over the Christmas goose. This guy - oh, well. If he is in a distance range that avoidance is not possible, then I act for me.
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Old December 8, 2005, 01:16 PM   #17
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A lot will be said, but the simple matter is none of use were there! The Air Marshall did his job! The downside is that some fellow is dead, but that is the world we live in! I personally could care less if the offending party was on or off meds! His actions speak volumes! He failed to take his meds! His wife failed to take matters into her hands and get his situation under control ie court committal! She for all intense purposes enabled the situation! So we keep in our thoughts the Air Marshall and the dead man's family!
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Old December 8, 2005, 01:21 PM   #18
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you have to ask yourself....isn't it possible that somebody who is bi-polar could still have a gun in the bag they are reaching into? or are you going to risk it and pray to god that since they are bipolar (and if they really are), that they will not have a weapon?

The decision is easy. It is very unfortunate, and i dont think anybody is really to blame. A look more into it may prove somebody is at fault for not administering or taking the proper medications. It's just a sad story.
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Old December 8, 2005, 01:36 PM   #19
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if bad guy has a knife and is approaching you menacingly, press one
if bad guy has a lousiville slugger and is approaching you menacingly, press two
if bad guy has a gun and is approaching you menacingly, press three
if bad guy is announced to you as being off meds and bipolar, please hold for the operator who will take your call in the order which it was recieved. should you not wish to continue holding, please press the pound sign and leave a message.




a threat to me or anyone else deserves to be stopped in the best way possible. sometimes thats with a gun. sometimes thats with pepper spray. sometimes thats with words. sometimes its all of the above.
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Old December 8, 2005, 02:10 PM   #20
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"Stop or I'll shoot...................unless you're bi-polar" I think not!

Regards,
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Old December 8, 2005, 02:23 PM   #21
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When a person is forced to make the decision to take a life, that person is evaluating the events they are experiencing right then, right there, with no discrimination of what may have set the events in motion.
Quote:
He is holding a large cleaver. He is wildeyed and breathing hard. He is looking around the area. He makes eye contact with you and starts forward straight at you.
This, along with the previous person running past bleeding is enough justification to draw a weapon and stop the threat. Period. No prozac, no exelon, no lithium. I have a limited amount of empathy for the mentally ill. If they do not want to stay on their meds and function within society then they need to be taken out of society. If they are on a murderous rampage, a dose of 230 grain JHP works better than the latest medication de jour in a crisis such as this. I do not absolve the mentally ill of their criminal activity. To do so gives thousands of criminals, whether mentally ill or not carte blanch to do as they please.
Call me a grumpy old fart. I've worked with these living excuse factories for years. I'm sick of it. Hold them accountable.
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Old December 8, 2005, 04:01 PM   #22
Weeg
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"FREEZE!...OK, tell me about your medical history..."

Just doesn't sound right


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Old December 8, 2005, 04:05 PM   #23
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I don't care if he's bipolar, schizophrenic, or has a hangnail. If they are a threat, they need to be neutralized. I'm not going to ask for a doctor's note before firing, and neither should anyone else.

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Old December 8, 2005, 04:06 PM   #24
45 Fu
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OK, I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but why is this even a question? Regardless of the circumstances/reason, you are in jeopardy.

This is why we carry weapons.
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Old December 8, 2005, 04:31 PM   #25
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Springmom wrote:
Quote:
One of the things I have encountered, both with my own son and with clients when I was a school psychologist, is the phenomenon of getting off meds when they're on an upswing. Not a "manic" episode necessarily; it may simply be a matter of having been nice and stable and normal for quite awhile. The person then thinks, "Great, I'm cured" and gets off the meds (usually without even tapering the dose). Sometimes there is no backlash. Sometimes it takes a week or two and then they're back to clear bipolar symptoms.
Very true. One of the hallmarks of a bi-polar person is that they are highly impulsive. They act without thinking. I have a 35 yr. old nephew that is bi-polar, and springmom hit it square on the head. My nephew was un-diagnosed up until about 15 yrs. ago. Nobody in the family had a clue. He had an interest in firearms and on his 21st birthday, I judged him as mature and competent enough to own one. I bought him a .22LR bolt action rifle, a real tack driver, and 6 months later, he put the muzzle in his mouth and pulled the trigger. Somehow, he survived it (surgeons said nothing less than a bona fide miracle). I asked him the obvious question: Why? He said he just got tired of life and did it without thinking about it.

He's on meds now and drives tractor trailer cross country, but every now & then, he does exactly as springmom said. He gets cocky, says "I feel great and don't need the damned meds", and the roller coaster starts all over again. I'm torn between feeling badly for him and wanting to throttle him.

If a bi-polar person decides to go postal, their impulsiveness is what makes them so dangerous. The decision is made without higher brain functions being engaged and you're facing a machine that's programmed itself to kill you. There's no debating with them, no pleading, no reasoning. Truly a tragic situation, but one regrettably that must be met with deadly force .
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