Witnessed a shooting, Froze in place

[Rookgun]

Don't feel too bad, that is a normal reaction. I've had a gun pointed at me before with the will to shoot (I believe) and my reaction was compete shock. I froze up and did exactly what I was told. I wasn't hurt and lost a little, it took me at least day to get over what had happened. That was years a ago but it's affected my life ever since.

[Mr. James]

I am with others in questioning whether he really "froze," at all. To me that implies inaction when action is required. By his own telling, he never saw the weapon being presented - he merely observed the attacker straighten up and then "fall back away from the vehicle" - and then only later understood that the assailant had been shot by the driver.

Sounds like OP acted quite appropriately, given his knowledge of events. And it sounds like nothing he discerned after the fact would have changed his behavior one iota.

[mordis]

It seems to be passed up, but someone mentioned time compression. Maybe what he experienced was that. What felt like a minute was really less then a second, there is evidence that your perception of time is distorted in a sd situation.

I have only been in one situation where i had to draw my weapon for fear of my well being. I do a side job at night as a rural newpaper delivery guy, not flashy but it helps with bills and such. I was at a very isolated area of my route and was about to put a paper in the box, when out of the corner of my eye, i saw something move, It was black and brown and looked to be rougly the size of a medium sized rott.(cant spell the full name, you know which dog im talking about) It was charging at me, and growling and carrying on. Now im seated in my car, but it is in park. My first reaction was to draw my g17 as fast as i could and get it on this dog. I even managed to get my sights lined up.(i remember trying repeating to my self to get the sights lined up)

Im not sure how long it was between the time when i first noticed the dog to the time that i drew and lined up the sights but it felt like at least a minute. But in reality i bet it was more like less then a few seconds.

Now I bet your wondering if i shot that dog, well i didnt. That dog did something strange, when i got the gun leveled at its head, it stopped in its tracks. It just stood there, I Kept my gun on him, but put the paper in the box and drove off. The damn thing then started chasing the car down the road and after a half mile gave up.

Now the time from when i saw it out of the corner of my eye, to the time right up to the moment of the draw, felt like a bout a min, but i dont think it was. What i found interesting, was that the time it took me to draw my gun and get the sights lined up, felt really really fast. Faster then anything i have ever been able to do in practice. I drew so fast that i broke the retention on my bianchi accumold. It has a button your thinger hits during the draw stroke. I managed to draw through that. I dont know if my draw was realy realy fast, or if it infact was a nother byproduct of time compression, i guess ill never beable to find out not til it happens again.

[PT111]

That reminds me of a time I was fishing and a water moccasin came swimming up to the boat and started to get in. I flipped ham back wit a paddle and he came back trying to get in. I flipped him back again and he came swilling back a third time. I reached in and pulled out my 357 and pointed it directly at the snake. I swear the snake looked at it and dove under water never to be seen again. May have been coincidence but it was funny as heck.

[tplumeri]

many thanks to all who replied and their kind words.
also thanks for the links, very helpful.
just to tie it all up;
i never felt threatened by the shooter. i would heve felt more threatened by the other guy if i was in the shooters situation.
the "victim" lived, thru and thru left chest with hemothorax.
the family of the "victim" already has an attorney making motions.
please dont harass me about the term "victim" i think he got what he deserved.
thanks again for all the help.
ill post now and then to keep you all updated.
tom

[prairieviper]

I agree with others that from what you have posted, you didn't feel threatened and your actions were therefore understandable considering what you were witnessing. I wouldn't beat myself up if I were you. Critique the situation and determine if there is anything you did or did not do that you would change if confronted with similar scenario in the future. You might decide that what you did was the right answer.

[Jermtheory]

many thanks to all who replied and their kind words.
also thanks for the links, very helpful.
just to tie it all up;
i never felt threatened by the shooter. i would heve felt more threatened by the other guy if i was in the shooters situation.
the "victim" lived, thru and thru left chest with hemothorax.
the family of the "victim" already has an attorney making motions.
please dont harass me about the term "victim" i think he got what he deserved.
thanks again for all the help.
ill post now and then to keep you all updated.
tom

cant speak for anyone else,but i wasnt trying to "harass".

just didnt think it was a very fitting description.

it actually confused me a little at first and i had to...re-read.

[porkskin]

You really should be easy on yourself. You just had a root canal and there is no way you were expecting trouble. What would you have done differently? By the way guys, does this qualify as a 1 shot stop? If so, +1 to the .40

[Doggieman]

Thank you so much for posting that Boyd OODA link! It has totally changed how I think about combat situations!!!!!

[monkeyboy]

Do more scenario work and mental blue printing in your training. Actually pitcture scenarious, visualize yourself taking the preferred response. When it happens for real the mind has a stored reaction to refer to. You get beond the "this can't be happening" stage faster, and into action.

Of course the fact that you just had a root canal may have screwed you up a tad.

[tplumeri]

Hey porkskin,
Wanna start a threat re stopping power of .40 vs 9mm vs 45?

[porkskin]

I'm not going anywhere near that 9<40<45...my carry guns are all Connecticut or Massuchusets made .38's and one swiss .380. I just thought this qualifies as a one shot stop with the story presented. If you ever watch "First 48" on A&E, it is amazing the folks that die with mousegun wounds

[CyberSEAL]

the shooter could have easily shot me as well.

Doesn't sound like the "shooter" was the bad guy here.

[tplumeri]

definately not the criminal. i only chose the terms "shooter" and "victim" for ease of description. guess i could've used "guy number1" and "guy number 2" instead, but inevidently some would would ask "which one was guy #1?"

[David Armstrong]

If you ever watch "First 48" on A&E, it is amazing the folks that die with mousegun wounds

Not really. Caliber is probably the least important factor in a defensive shooting, and the "mouseguns" have a fairly decent record behind them of success. Most folks aren't real dedicated opponents in the first place, and thus aren't in that "monster" stage where they soak up lots of big bullets without much visible effect.

[Justme]

.380? I'm torn between my tomcat in .22 and my keltec in .32. I like the tomcat better and shoot better with it, but not much better and the .32 does seem like a lot more firepower than the .22, in my world a .380 might just be overkill.

[porkskin]

David, I let you slide on another thread as you seemed more knowledgable, however I have personally never missed a "First 48", and can tell you that barring a .50 Desert Eagle, a Glock 30, and a few rifles, every murder on that show is a .380, a .25, or a .22. Do you watch the show? I am right on this pal.

[JohnKSa]

I am right on this pal.

I think he's saying that he doesn't find it amazing that mouseguns are so effective because that seems very reasonable to him already. Basically agreeing with your information but disagreeing that it's amazing.

[porkskin]

I see that now. My bad

[Mannlicher]

Fact is, that these things usually happen in an instant. The attacker knows what will happen, you don't have a clue until it does. Maybe, just maybe, you will have a second or two to react.
All those guys worring about lawyers and juries, about law suits and consequences, wind up dead. The folks that practice, have their mind set in place, and have trained themselves to react, survive.

[David Armstrong]

I see that now. My bad

No problem. I probably could have worded that better.

[Semblance]

Definitely expect to be subpoenaed and deposed. You might be the only thing keeping the shooter out of jail.

[BillCA]

TP,

I think you're being too hard on yourself.

A car horn starts beeping on the sidestreet next to the dentists lot. I'm walking that way to my car and the the car horn gets longer and more frequent.
as i get to my car i see a car trying to parallel park on the side street and the car he's backing up to with the driver very animated about blowing the horn.
the cars never make contact as far as i could see, but the driver backing up stops his car, gets out, runs to the other vehicle and proceeds to punch the crap out of the the other guy (still seated in the stationary vehicle!) by now im froze in my tracks next to my car, 30 ft away.

Because you just had a root canal, I'll take a selfish & cynical view of circumstances here. You see the beginnings of an altercation when you're (most likely) in no mood to do anything but relax after the anticipation of the dreaded root canal (even if it's painless, it's uncomfortable). As the driver runs back towards the horn honker, the high-speed processor in your brain expressed some concept like "oh, that damn fool!" or "he's gonna yell at the jerk with the horn." Your expectation was that it was about to become a screaming match was based on personal experience and opinion.

When Driver #1 starts beating on horn-honking driver #2, your logical processor starts looking for a plausible reason and/or is trying to determine "which of these two turkeys is in the wrong here?" Emotionally, your internal thoughts are "I just wanna go home, don't make me get involved in your stupidity, guys!"

all of a sudden the attacker stands straight up and then falls back away from the vehicle. i didnt hear the shot. the "driver" of the parked vehicle steps out holding a poly semi auto (all i saw was a black handgun, later identified as a glock 22). the driver looks at the victim, then at me and asks me to call 911.

So during the moment when you are attempting to evaluate right/wrong; attacker/victim; good-guy/bad-guy, Driver #2 defends himself. Contrary to your expectations you do not hear gunfire but only see Driver #1 go down to apparently unknown causes. Only when the driver steps out holding a gun does it dawn on you that a gun was employed. Since Driver #2 reacts calmly and does not threaten you and asks you to call 911, you quickly assess that he's the good-guy/victim and more law-abiding than driver #1.

Opinion:
1. You did nothing wrong.
2. There was probably nothing you could have done to change the outcome.
3. You were not directly threatened, thus no reason to draw.
4. You have just discovered that events are seldom clear-cut as to who the good & bad guys are or what the fight is all about.
5. Events can happen before we're finished making up our minds what is really happening or who the real aggressor is.

By the way, I do urge you to write down your observations before being called for a deposition or as a witness. Recall as many factual details as you can and try to get the sequence of events straight. Then critically examine anything where you make a presumption - such as that Driver #2 shot Driver #1 -- if you didn't hear a gunshot you don't know for sure. All you know is that Driver #2 exited his car holding a polymer-looking gun and later examination revealed Driver #1 had been shot. Likewise, unless you saw fists making contact or Driver #2 reacting to punches, all you can say is that it appeared to you as though driver #1 was punching driver #2.

Having it written down now and stored in your desk will allow you to refresh your memory when/if called as a witness. It also allows you to refrain from "filling in the gaps" with presumptions as time goes by.

[4V50 Gary]

Don't knock yourself for it. What anyone can do is to close their OOLA loop. Preplan your response to situations and when it arises, you already know how to react.

[garyl43]

You did the right thing. He had the right to protect himself just as you do (In Utah at least you don't have to take a beating). To draw down on a victim who was protecting himself might have gotten you or him killed (an ugly situation either way). I know if I just took a beating and shot someone, then a nearby person draws down on me , I would have shot first and asked questions later.