JBT's--prefered method of Home Invasions.

LASur5r · November 6, 2000, 08:09 PM

Slightly disturbing trend that we're starting to hear about here in soCal. I'm hearing from some ex-gang members that they are afraid and they're arming themselves accordingly (i.e. vests, rifles of .223 or larger caliber; shotguns) because they are afraid of home invasions by opposing gangs.
The technique of choice is of the JBT's with kicking in the door, followed by multiple armed attackers (3 or more), rounding up everyone and pistol whipping folks and sometimes raping the young women.
Just the other day, two of the homeowner's were tied up and executed.

The twist on this is now the gang bangers are afraid of this technique being used on them, but on the other hand, some gangs are using this technique to gain entry into houses.

Seriously, give this some thought...then, how do you combat it?

twist996 · November 6, 2000, 08:45 PM

use home defenses to alert you to the problem, that'll give you time to ready youself...after that, greet'em at the door with a few rounds...first in, first down...this is practical in my situation, but maybe not in someone elses...

------------------
speak now, or forever hold your peace

dragontooth73 · November 6, 2000, 09:10 PM

Serious answer ... move to a safer community. Seriously. They have operational surprise. They can choose to hit your home when where, and choose point of entry. Having masses of street lights, regular security details, checkpoints (sounds like a walled community?) doesn't have any substitute to it.

If moving is prohibited, then combining disguise with opennness is the best thing. Don't park that Mercedes where it can be seen by passers-by. But clip your hedges so you can't be surprised while you're waiting for the garage door to open.

Lights on, silent alarms, dogs, there's only so much that can be done system-wise. If there's any innovation I think some fire-alarm systems could work. Or anti-burglar systems that fill the room with smoke, things like that.

But that's very much last resort. Stopping them at the community level is the only real answer, I think. Such a shame that most homeowners don't care about their neighbors nowadays.

ASTM366 · November 6, 2000, 09:33 PM

I predict that someday another set of LA riots are going to occur and the gangbangers are all going to wasted by the good citizens of LA. Gangbangers create a condition of fear. Folks will only live under that condition for so long and then they will take matter into their own hands and eliminate the threat. It will be a bloody vigilante action unprecedented in our country. Afterwards, peace will rein. I'm glad I don't live in a place where gangbangers live and spread their sickness.

Nevada Fitch · November 6, 2000, 09:40 PM

If I lived in a place like that I would go ahead and wear my 45auto with 2 extra clips around in the house constantly.I believe this is the only way you would have time to react.No matter where you hid a gun in the house chances are it would be out of reach in time to get it and solve the problem.

dragontooth73 · November 6, 2000, 10:44 PM

Funniest thing is my dear sweet ex-fiancee is a retired slanger queen, with quite a reputation in the Asian gang community in LA. To a certain extent, the kids are harmless. Talk of extermination for me is like a bucket of cold water to the face: I know a number of these kids personally. A lot of them do clean up, given the right environment. Sending .223s winging down the kerb at them doesn't appeal to me as a first try at a solution.

I do wholeheartedly concur that there are a LOT of scumbags. Latin Kings, Crips, Bloods, Asian Boyz, Tribal Kings, whatever they're called, different names, same vermin. The pseudo-Masonic order they create for themselves with their initiations and peerage is crap. If I had to live in LA I'm getting an M1 Garand and a pair of M1911s as a moving in gift to myself.

ASTM366, in this day and age the good citizens of LA, should they choose to engage the gang element in armed confrontation, are likely to get shot at by the LAPD and the National Guard en masse for their troubles. So much for justice, really.

David Scott · November 7, 2000, 08:42 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ASTM366:
I predict that someday another set of LA riots are going to occur and the gangbangers are all going to wasted by the good citizens of LA.[/quote]

Where are the good citizens of LA going to get the weapons with which to massacre the gangbangers? It's getting so bad you need a permit for a staple gun out there.

Deaf Smith · November 7, 2000, 02:25 PM

If you cannot move, I guess here is what you can do. We have a horse ranch and this can work for you.

1) Cameras. There are several makes that are wireless. Install them at the 4 corners of your house. Use batteries that are charged from the regular electric lines (like your burgular alarm, you do have one, don't you?).

2) Place the monitors in the living room. Put them in the corner high so while watching TV you can glance up and see anyone aproaching the house from any angle.

3) Also on the corners of your house, near the cameras, put motion activated flood lights. Make sure you can turn on all the flood lights from a master switch in the house. Also have them battery operated with the batteries charged from the house lines. (you ask why this battery method, that is because if they cut your power, or for any reason the power goes off, the cameras and flood lights still work). Also have 'storm' plugin lights, that charge up when not in use, in several sockets in each room so if the power goes off, the house is still lighted (kinda like a submarine).

4) A real good cell phone for each member of the adult family.

5) Carry your handgun holstered at all times. Carry what ever you like to carry, just do carry it.

6) Have a selection of shotguns/rifles (what ever you favor, 12 ga, .223, simi, pump, etc..) kept ready at one or two locations in the house. I use Tac-star to keep extra ammo on my shotguns.

7) A good first aid kit with gunshot bandages, CPR, trauma kit, etc... That just might save your life.

8) KEEP A LOW PROFILE AND DON'T TELL ALL YOUR NEIGHBORS WHAT SECURITY YOU HAVE. SAME FOR YOUR FAMILY/CHILDREN. LET THEM KNOW NOT TO TELL ANYONE JUST WHAT YOUR SECURITY SITUATION IS.

Hope this helps.

Deaf Smith

LASur5r · November 7, 2000, 04:43 PM

Deaf Smith,
I have talked to several contractor friends and a couple building inspectors in the area and the word is that a lot of Beverly Hills folks are having "safe rooms" installed in their mansions.
I hear some of the features are they have to be self-sufficient with their own air supply and air filtration system; water purifying system, bullet proof walls with a vault like door, etc., etc...
Bomb shelter, anyone?

Deaf Smith · November 7, 2000, 07:09 PM

The reason for all the security is outside of town there is no law. Yes, I know the sheriff can come out, but that will take time. And with valuable horses, that thieves do take, one has to have precautions. Yes, their are cameras in the barn. Flood lights around the barn and house. Hidden cameras. It is no joke. If we hear any untoward sounds comming from the barn, instead of walking out there with a flashlight and a gun, we first flood the place with light, check all the cameras. If we catch anyone, we call the sheriff first, then if need be, we confront the thieves.

The origional post was because the guy asked for options. I feel what I gave was actually very cheep options to impliment. Those cameras do not cost a great deal. Same with cheep black and white monotors. Flood lights you can buy at any hardware store. An electrician can emplace it all for about $300 bucks. You can install the wireless cameras yourself. Of course, the weapons are up to you.

Deaf Smith

dragontooth73 · November 7, 2000, 08:59 PM

Deaf Smith ... I'm waiting to see how long it takes before you hit "Senior Member" status

I think a number of others are too.

Deaf Smith · November 7, 2000, 10:45 PM

dragontooth73, LASur5r I am no great expert. I have been to LFI-1, Chapman Acadamy, and lots of IDPA and IPSC, besides indoor matches around here. Have a real good wall of trophies (none real big matches). That still does not make me any great shakes. The security I mentioned is necessary. We learned that at a riding school. The owner showed us some of their methods, we copied and added some of our own. While my wife is a horse nut, I am a gun nut. Two nuts make life interesting. She shoots just enough to get by, I ride just enough to get by. She goes to horse shows, I go to gun shows. Interesting, hey what?

I guess the more I post, the more I get to 'Senior Member'. Well, if I make that grade, I want it with post that have some thought in them.

Deaf Smith

[This message has been edited by Deaf Smith (edited November 07, 2000).]

Ivanhoe · November 8, 2000, 03:38 AM

Deaf Smith wrote "Two nuts make life interesting." Nice double entendre.

Cameras are fine, but I still would want each "layer" of sensors to tie into a buzzer and or flasher (might be blasting the stereo!) in each room. I really like the idea of using those milsurplus ground vibration detectors to detect vehicle and foot traffic before they're on the doorstep. Time to prepare is everything.

dragontooth73 · November 8, 2000, 10:39 AM

Thing to remember is no security measure is ever going to do the thinking for the people it's supposed to protect. I wonder if there's a diminishing return on every new layer of defense added ...

"Hey I have 12ft barb-wire fences monitored by motion detectors tied to strobelights and sirens that activate prepositioned explosives which are supplemented by remote-sensor machinegun/sniper rifle(TRAP)/and panzerfaust systems and I let my 133lb Saint Bernard run the whole thing"

... is there a point where all the additional security measures encourage a sense of apathy ... paranoia is bad, but sitting on your butt, content with having discarded the need for alertness is worse ... I'd rather have just a string with cans tied to it if that'll keep me sharp.

Speaking of which, Deaf Smith ... nice double entendre ... unintended I'm sure ... didn't even notice 'til Ivanhoe pointed it out ... and I've read all your posts. They all have thought in them so I'm sure you won't be displeased

speaking of which you're almost there.

[This message has been edited by dragontooth73 (edited November 08, 2000).]

Al Mondroca · November 8, 2000, 02:25 PM

If you're really worried about middle-of-the-night raids, I recommend installing a tripline. You can set it up so that it's just far enough into the room that the door will miss it as it flies open, but the goons stampeding into the room will fall all over themselves and dogpile on the floor. (And with a little luck and some bad safety procedures, shoot themselves.) The tripline can be set up when you make your last check of the house before retiring, and taken down when you get up.

It isn't a "mantrap" since it causes no direct harm, but it will slow their invasion and give you at least a _little_ more time to respond to the crash of the door (and possibly the thudding bodies and gunshots).

If you _really_ want to get elaborate, put some kind of trigger on the tripline to activate the highest-intensity floodlights you can find/afford to blind them..uh, I mean, to illuminate them so you can identify them.

Or, if at all possible, find a more secure neighborhood.

LASur5r · November 8, 2000, 03:18 PM

Al M.,
I like the idea of moving to a better neighborhood...I really would, but I already live in the highest rent district in that city. It's no big deal, it's a 1600 sq. ft. house.
My problem is that a lot of home invasions are now taking place in the "high rent" districts of the different cities.
The goblins have learned that it is usually more profitable and often easier to hit the "high rent" districts because the property owners are dependent on the police department to protect them from the goblins.
No joke...in high security buildings, I have seen all basic security systems defeated.
Problem that I hear is that the tenants unfortunately develop a sense of false security.

For example, the closing gates in the driveways are tripped by a sensor, I saw some poorly adjusted ones where the kids would jump up and down on the rubber across the driveway to make the gates open, then a gang of kids would go into the parking garage and rob the cars and whoever was unfortunate enough to go into the garage at the time they were down there.
Or the kids would send one person to follow a car driving into the garage then trip the sensor from the garage side.

Since where I live is a tract home area and your property is your home and castle, not some body else's responsibility, i must put up my own defenses (the way I like it.)

So I still keep the alligators in the moat and the boiling oil on the parapets.

...just kidding.

dragontooth73 · November 8, 2000, 10:52 PM

You wonder, if people carpool, then why don't they do the smart thing and go in convoys ... you know, have advance teams to check things out, get the ladies and the kids home first, have the guys with CCW go last ... but that's too much.

Well, there seems to be several kinds of defense I guess:

(1) Overt Perimiter Defense = visible fences, dogs, warning signs, sharp glass.
(2) Covert Perimiter Defense = silent alarms, tripwires, floodlights, mirrors.

I mean if they get past these, they can only enter through (a) doors or (b) windows ... right? Unless they have explosives to blast through walls or something.

Then it's a matter of sturdy locks, shatterproof windows, hidden weapons. And keeping alert.

The way Japanese houses treat defense, is traditionally they have a lot of sliding doors and false panels. Their roofs are angled to make it hard to walk on them, and panelled with slick glazed tile to make it even harder. Furniture is sparse - it doesn't slow the attacker, it just adds to the confusion. Confusion aids the invader, not the homeowner. Hallways and stairs are narrow to channel invaders into single file. Stairways are steep, you cannot run up or down them without tripping. Floors are made of panelled wood, and intentionally made to creak with footsteps (you cannot walk in a traditional house without making noise.)

I mean honestly, there's a lot of good information on how architecture can aid defense out there from ancient texts and traditional design. Moats are just one example. If I ever have a dream house, I'm making it with strong Asian influences ... not only because of the defensive value, but they're just more comfortable in a hot environment

Point Blank · November 11, 2000, 03:07 AM

Thing he forgot to add was when they kick your door in they are yelling..POLICE,POLICE,POLICE. Which totally throws you for a loop!!!!!!

twist996 · November 11, 2000, 01:20 PM

if it's the police, then they'll have to politely knock on my door...if it's not, they'll have to politely lay on the floor...great defensive suggestions, several of which i'm making note of...any idea where one could learn more about these architectural influences mentioned?

------------------
speak now, or forever hold your peace

dragontooth73 · November 11, 2000, 02:16 PM

I think best thing to do is go to the library and look up castles, European and Japanese. I know European castles went through several incarnations in response to the weaponry used (narrow slit-windows when arrows were in vogue, low ceilings for claymores etc) but in Japanese castles they remained pretty constant. Houses are microcosms of the same design principles in Japan. One of my ex gfs was an architect, so I got to read her books etc. Plus I had an interest in castles anyways =)

I'll tried to look for links, but most of them weren't too hot... http://www.obershawonline.com/castle/ http://rubens.anu.edu.au/student.pro....html#contents http://www.centerx.gseis.ucla.edu/ou...s/castle1.html

Would be it. The thing is, most of these details aren't shown in houses (obviously) ... an outline is:

(1) creaky wooden hallways
(2) steep narrow stairways
(3) sliding doors, false rooms
(4) sloped driveways
(5) internal courtyards

In (5) penetration from one side of the building on the ground floor means that when you're on the other side, you have a clear line of sight ... to get from one side to the other you have to walk the hallways on the periphery, which means all the BGs are very exposed ... watch some samurai dramas, I guess, and this should be clear. I wonder if the 90s remake of "Chushingura" starring Ken Takakura will ever be available ... true story of 47 samurai storming a feudal manor. If you can ever get hold of it it's a good watch.

JimR · November 19, 2000, 11:14 AM

Y'know, we just don't seem to see much of this home invasion stuff here in the South. Maybe it's because the goblins know there's a tradition of firearms ownership, or at least enough of one to keep'em guessing.

HeadHunter · November 19, 2000, 06:23 PM

OK, I'll bite. What is JBT?

twist996 · November 20, 2000, 07:51 AM

Jack Booted Thug.....

Nevada Fitch · November 20, 2000, 01:07 PM

Jim R, I second your opinion of the south,May it always be so.

nbk2000 · November 21, 2000, 06:53 PM

European castles have what are called "murder holes" in the second story of a gatehouse. These were small holes in the second story floor that allowed defenders to shoot arrows or dump boiling water onto attackers below them.

This would be an easy defensive feature to add to your house (assuming a second floor). Cut fist sized holes in the floor of the second story, somewhere above where intruders would be funneled into a killzone like a hallway or stairwell. The holes are plugged with styrofoam plugs that are flush with the first floor ceiling and painted over so no vistors wonder about the holes. The holes are covered with plates of steel (with a hole in them of course) large enough to protect you from incoming fire from the first floor.

When the s*** hits the fan you lift up the carpet flaps that cover the holes, punch out the plugs, and when a BG is in your killzone looking at the strange things on the floor (plugs), blast 'em. Of course a grenade (maybe improvised flash-bang like an M-1000?

)dropped down on their heads would be a better choice, but you don't want to detroy your house defending it now do you?

November 20, 2000, 07:51 AM	#23
twist996 Member Join Date: October 20, 2000 Posts: 85	Jack Booted Thug..... __________________ speak now, or forever hold your peace

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November 6, 2000, 08:09 PM	#1
LASur5r Junior member Join Date: July 20, 2000 Location: pasadena,california,America Posts: 542	Slightly disturbing trend that we're starting to hear about here in soCal. I'm hearing from some ex-gang members that they are afraid and they're arming themselves accordingly (i.e. vests, rifles of .223 or larger caliber; shotguns) because they are afraid of home invasions by opposing gangs. The technique of choice is of the JBT's with kicking in the door, followed by multiple armed attackers (3 or more), rounding up everyone and pistol whipping folks and sometimes raping the young women. Just the other day, two of the homeowner's were tied up and executed. The twist on this is now the gang bangers are afraid of this technique being used on them, but on the other hand, some gangs are using this technique to gain entry into houses. Seriously, give this some thought...then, how do you combat it?

November 6, 2000, 08:45 PM	#2
twist996 Member Join Date: October 20, 2000 Posts: 85	use home defenses to alert you to the problem, that'll give you time to ready youself...after that, greet'em at the door with a few rounds...first in, first down...this is practical in my situation, but maybe not in someone elses... ------------------ speak now, or forever hold your peace

November 6, 2000, 09:10 PM	#3
dragontooth73 Junior member Join Date: August 2, 2000 Location: Honolulu, HI, USA Posts: 210	Serious answer ... move to a safer community. Seriously. They have operational surprise. They can choose to hit your home when where, and choose point of entry. Having masses of street lights, regular security details, checkpoints (sounds like a walled community?) doesn't have any substitute to it. If moving is prohibited, then combining disguise with opennness is the best thing. Don't park that Mercedes where it can be seen by passers-by. But clip your hedges so you can't be surprised while you're waiting for the garage door to open. Lights on, silent alarms, dogs, there's only so much that can be done system-wise. If there's any innovation I think some fire-alarm systems could work. Or anti-burglar systems that fill the room with smoke, things like that. But that's very much last resort. Stopping them at the community level is the only real answer, I think. Such a shame that most homeowners don't care about their neighbors nowadays.

November 6, 2000, 09:33 PM	#4
ASTM366 Junior Member Join Date: November 2, 2000 Posts: 4	I predict that someday another set of LA riots are going to occur and the gangbangers are all going to wasted by the good citizens of LA. Gangbangers create a condition of fear. Folks will only live under that condition for so long and then they will take matter into their own hands and eliminate the threat. It will be a bloody vigilante action unprecedented in our country. Afterwards, peace will rein. I'm glad I don't live in a place where gangbangers live and spread their sickness.

November 6, 2000, 09:40 PM	#5
Nevada Fitch Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2000 Posts: 261	If I lived in a place like that I would go ahead and wear my 45auto with 2 extra clips around in the house constantly.I believe this is the only way you would have time to react.No matter where you hid a gun in the house chances are it would be out of reach in time to get it and solve the problem.

November 6, 2000, 10:44 PM	#6
dragontooth73 Junior member Join Date: August 2, 2000 Location: Honolulu, HI, USA Posts: 210	Funniest thing is my dear sweet ex-fiancee is a retired slanger queen, with quite a reputation in the Asian gang community in LA. To a certain extent, the kids are harmless. Talk of extermination for me is like a bucket of cold water to the face: I know a number of these kids personally. A lot of them do clean up, given the right environment. Sending .223s winging down the kerb at them doesn't appeal to me as a first try at a solution. I do wholeheartedly concur that there are a LOT of scumbags. Latin Kings, Crips, Bloods, Asian Boyz, Tribal Kings, whatever they're called, different names, same vermin. The pseudo-Masonic order they create for themselves with their initiations and peerage is crap. If I had to live in LA I'm getting an M1 Garand and a pair of M1911s as a moving in gift to myself. ASTM366, in this day and age the good citizens of LA, should they choose to engage the gang element in armed confrontation, are likely to get shot at by the LAPD and the National Guard en masse for their troubles. So much for justice, really.

November 7, 2000, 08:42 AM	#7
David Scott Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2000 Posts: 2,456	<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ASTM366: I predict that someday another set of LA riots are going to occur and the gangbangers are all going to wasted by the good citizens of LA.[/quote] Where are the good citizens of LA going to get the weapons with which to massacre the gangbangers? It's getting so bad you need a permit for a staple gun out there.

November 7, 2000, 02:25 PM	#8
Deaf Smith Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2000 Location: Texican! Posts: 4,453	If you cannot move, I guess here is what you can do. We have a horse ranch and this can work for you. 1) Cameras. There are several makes that are wireless. Install them at the 4 corners of your house. Use batteries that are charged from the regular electric lines (like your burgular alarm, you do have one, don't you?). 2) Place the monitors in the living room. Put them in the corner high so while watching TV you can glance up and see anyone aproaching the house from any angle. 3) Also on the corners of your house, near the cameras, put motion activated flood lights. Make sure you can turn on all the flood lights from a master switch in the house. Also have them battery operated with the batteries charged from the house lines. (you ask why this battery method, that is because if they cut your power, or for any reason the power goes off, the cameras and flood lights still work). Also have 'storm' plugin lights, that charge up when not in use, in several sockets in each room so if the power goes off, the house is still lighted (kinda like a submarine). 4) A real good cell phone for each member of the adult family. 5) Carry your handgun holstered at all times. Carry what ever you like to carry, just do carry it. 6) Have a selection of shotguns/rifles (what ever you favor, 12 ga, .223, simi, pump, etc..) kept ready at one or two locations in the house. I use Tac-star to keep extra ammo on my shotguns. 7) A good first aid kit with gunshot bandages, CPR, trauma kit, etc... That just might save your life. 8) KEEP A LOW PROFILE AND DON'T TELL ALL YOUR NEIGHBORS WHAT SECURITY YOU HAVE. SAME FOR YOUR FAMILY/CHILDREN. LET THEM KNOW NOT TO TELL ANYONE JUST WHAT YOUR SECURITY SITUATION IS. Hope this helps. Deaf Smith

November 7, 2000, 04:43 PM	#9
LASur5r Junior member Join Date: July 20, 2000 Location: pasadena,california,America Posts: 542	Deaf Smith, I have talked to several contractor friends and a couple building inspectors in the area and the word is that a lot of Beverly Hills folks are having "safe rooms" installed in their mansions. I hear some of the features are they have to be self-sufficient with their own air supply and air filtration system; water purifying system, bullet proof walls with a vault like door, etc., etc... Bomb shelter, anyone?

November 7, 2000, 07:09 PM	#10
Deaf Smith Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2000 Location: Texican! Posts: 4,453	The reason for all the security is outside of town there is no law. Yes, I know the sheriff can come out, but that will take time. And with valuable horses, that thieves do take, one has to have precautions. Yes, their are cameras in the barn. Flood lights around the barn and house. Hidden cameras. It is no joke. If we hear any untoward sounds comming from the barn, instead of walking out there with a flashlight and a gun, we first flood the place with light, check all the cameras. If we catch anyone, we call the sheriff first, then if need be, we confront the thieves. The origional post was because the guy asked for options. I feel what I gave was actually very cheep options to impliment. Those cameras do not cost a great deal. Same with cheep black and white monotors. Flood lights you can buy at any hardware store. An electrician can emplace it all for about $300 bucks. You can install the wireless cameras yourself. Of course, the weapons are up to you. Deaf Smith

November 7, 2000, 08:59 PM	#11
dragontooth73 Junior member Join Date: August 2, 2000 Location: Honolulu, HI, USA Posts: 210	Deaf Smith ... I'm waiting to see how long it takes before you hit "Senior Member" status I think a number of others are too.

November 7, 2000, 10:45 PM	#12
Deaf Smith Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2000 Location: Texican! Posts: 4,453	dragontooth73, LASur5r I am no great expert. I have been to LFI-1, Chapman Acadamy, and lots of IDPA and IPSC, besides indoor matches around here. Have a real good wall of trophies (none real big matches). That still does not make me any great shakes. The security I mentioned is necessary. We learned that at a riding school. The owner showed us some of their methods, we copied and added some of our own. While my wife is a horse nut, I am a gun nut. Two nuts make life interesting. She shoots just enough to get by, I ride just enough to get by. She goes to horse shows, I go to gun shows. Interesting, hey what? I guess the more I post, the more I get to 'Senior Member'. Well, if I make that grade, I want it with post that have some thought in them. Deaf Smith [This message has been edited by Deaf Smith (edited November 07, 2000).]

November 8, 2000, 03:38 AM	#13
Ivanhoe Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 1998 Location: Virginia Posts: 412	Deaf Smith wrote "Two nuts make life interesting." Nice double entendre. Cameras are fine, but I still would want each "layer" of sensors to tie into a buzzer and or flasher (might be blasting the stereo!) in each room. I really like the idea of using those milsurplus ground vibration detectors to detect vehicle and foot traffic before they're on the doorstep. Time to prepare is everything.

November 8, 2000, 10:39 AM	#14
dragontooth73 Junior member Join Date: August 2, 2000 Location: Honolulu, HI, USA Posts: 210	Thing to remember is no security measure is ever going to do the thinking for the people it's supposed to protect. I wonder if there's a diminishing return on every new layer of defense added ... "Hey I have 12ft barb-wire fences monitored by motion detectors tied to strobelights and sirens that activate prepositioned explosives which are supplemented by remote-sensor machinegun/sniper rifle(TRAP)/and panzerfaust systems and I let my 133lb Saint Bernard run the whole thing" ... is there a point where all the additional security measures encourage a sense of apathy ... paranoia is bad, but sitting on your butt, content with having discarded the need for alertness is worse ... I'd rather have just a string with cans tied to it if that'll keep me sharp. Speaking of which, Deaf Smith ... nice double entendre ... unintended I'm sure ... didn't even notice 'til Ivanhoe pointed it out ... and I've read all your posts. They all have thought in them so I'm sure you won't be displeased speaking of which you're almost there. [This message has been edited by dragontooth73 (edited November 08, 2000).]

November 8, 2000, 02:25 PM	#15
Al Mondroca Senior Member Join Date: September 5, 2000 Posts: 137	If you're really worried about middle-of-the-night raids, I recommend installing a tripline. You can set it up so that it's just far enough into the room that the door will miss it as it flies open, but the goons stampeding into the room will fall all over themselves and dogpile on the floor. (And with a little luck and some bad safety procedures, shoot themselves.) The tripline can be set up when you make your last check of the house before retiring, and taken down when you get up. It isn't a "mantrap" since it causes no direct harm, but it will slow their invasion and give you at least a _little_ more time to respond to the crash of the door (and possibly the thudding bodies and gunshots). If you _really_ want to get elaborate, put some kind of trigger on the tripline to activate the highest-intensity floodlights you can find/afford to blind them..uh, I mean, to illuminate them so you can identify them. Or, if at all possible, find a more secure neighborhood.

November 8, 2000, 03:18 PM	#16
LASur5r Junior member Join Date: July 20, 2000 Location: pasadena,california,America Posts: 542	Al M., I like the idea of moving to a better neighborhood...I really would, but I already live in the highest rent district in that city. It's no big deal, it's a 1600 sq. ft. house. My problem is that a lot of home invasions are now taking place in the "high rent" districts of the different cities. The goblins have learned that it is usually more profitable and often easier to hit the "high rent" districts because the property owners are dependent on the police department to protect them from the goblins. No joke...in high security buildings, I have seen all basic security systems defeated. Problem that I hear is that the tenants unfortunately develop a sense of false security. For example, the closing gates in the driveways are tripped by a sensor, I saw some poorly adjusted ones where the kids would jump up and down on the rubber across the driveway to make the gates open, then a gang of kids would go into the parking garage and rob the cars and whoever was unfortunate enough to go into the garage at the time they were down there. Or the kids would send one person to follow a car driving into the garage then trip the sensor from the garage side. Since where I live is a tract home area and your property is your home and castle, not some body else's responsibility, i must put up my own defenses (the way I like it.) So I still keep the alligators in the moat and the boiling oil on the parapets. ...just kidding.

November 8, 2000, 10:52 PM	#17
dragontooth73 Junior member Join Date: August 2, 2000 Location: Honolulu, HI, USA Posts: 210	You wonder, if people carpool, then why don't they do the smart thing and go in convoys ... you know, have advance teams to check things out, get the ladies and the kids home first, have the guys with CCW go last ... but that's too much. Well, there seems to be several kinds of defense I guess: (1) Overt Perimiter Defense = visible fences, dogs, warning signs, sharp glass. (2) Covert Perimiter Defense = silent alarms, tripwires, floodlights, mirrors. I mean if they get past these, they can only enter through (a) doors or (b) windows ... right? Unless they have explosives to blast through walls or something. Then it's a matter of sturdy locks, shatterproof windows, hidden weapons. And keeping alert. The way Japanese houses treat defense, is traditionally they have a lot of sliding doors and false panels. Their roofs are angled to make it hard to walk on them, and panelled with slick glazed tile to make it even harder. Furniture is sparse - it doesn't slow the attacker, it just adds to the confusion. Confusion aids the invader, not the homeowner. Hallways and stairs are narrow to channel invaders into single file. Stairways are steep, you cannot run up or down them without tripping. Floors are made of panelled wood, and intentionally made to creak with footsteps (you cannot walk in a traditional house without making noise.) I mean honestly, there's a lot of good information on how architecture can aid defense out there from ancient texts and traditional design. Moats are just one example. If I ever have a dream house, I'm making it with strong Asian influences ... not only because of the defensive value, but they're just more comfortable in a hot environment

November 11, 2000, 03:07 AM	#18
Point Blank Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2000 Location: Armpit of the South...Atlanta Posts: 516	Thing he forgot to add was when they kick your door in they are yelling..POLICE,POLICE,POLICE. Which totally throws you for a loop!!!!!!

November 11, 2000, 01:20 PM	#19
twist996 Member Join Date: October 20, 2000 Posts: 85	if it's the police, then they'll have to politely knock on my door...if it's not, they'll have to politely lay on the floor...great defensive suggestions, several of which i'm making note of...any idea where one could learn more about these architectural influences mentioned? ------------------ speak now, or forever hold your peace

November 11, 2000, 02:16 PM	#20
dragontooth73 Junior member Join Date: August 2, 2000 Location: Honolulu, HI, USA Posts: 210	I think best thing to do is go to the library and look up castles, European and Japanese. I know European castles went through several incarnations in response to the weaponry used (narrow slit-windows when arrows were in vogue, low ceilings for claymores etc) but in Japanese castles they remained pretty constant. Houses are microcosms of the same design principles in Japan. One of my ex gfs was an architect, so I got to read her books etc. Plus I had an interest in castles anyways =) I'll tried to look for links, but most of them weren't too hot... http://www.obershawonline.com/castle/ http://rubens.anu.edu.au/student.pro....html#contents http://www.centerx.gseis.ucla.edu/ou...s/castle1.html Would be it. The thing is, most of these details aren't shown in houses (obviously) ... an outline is: (1) creaky wooden hallways (2) steep narrow stairways (3) sliding doors, false rooms (4) sloped driveways (5) internal courtyards In (5) penetration from one side of the building on the ground floor means that when you're on the other side, you have a clear line of sight ... to get from one side to the other you have to walk the hallways on the periphery, which means all the BGs are very exposed ... watch some samurai dramas, I guess, and this should be clear. I wonder if the 90s remake of "Chushingura" starring Ken Takakura will ever be available ... true story of 47 samurai storming a feudal manor. If you can ever get hold of it it's a good watch.

November 19, 2000, 11:14 AM	#21
JimR Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 1999 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 909	Y'know, we just don't seem to see much of this home invasion stuff here in the South. Maybe it's because the goblins know there's a tradition of firearms ownership, or at least enough of one to keep'em guessing.

November 19, 2000, 06:23 PM	#22
HeadHunter Senior Member Join Date: May 21, 1999 Location: Atlanta Posts: 162	OK, I'll bite. What is JBT?

November 20, 2000, 01:07 PM	#24
Nevada Fitch Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2000 Posts: 261	Jim R, I second your opinion of the south,May it always be so.

November 21, 2000, 06:53 PM	#25
nbk2000 Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 2000 Posts: 216	European castles have what are called "murder holes" in the second story of a gatehouse. These were small holes in the second story floor that allowed defenders to shoot arrows or dump boiling water onto attackers below them. This would be an easy defensive feature to add to your house (assuming a second floor). Cut fist sized holes in the floor of the second story, somewhere above where intruders would be funneled into a killzone like a hallway or stairwell. The holes are plugged with styrofoam plugs that are flush with the first floor ceiling and painted over so no vistors wonder about the holes. The holes are covered with plates of steel (with a hole in them of course) large enough to protect you from incoming fire from the first floor. When the s*** hits the fan you lift up the carpet flaps that cover the holes, punch out the plugs, and when a BG is in your killzone looking at the strange things on the floor (plugs), blast 'em. Of course a grenade (maybe improvised flash-bang like an M-1000? )dropped down on their heads would be a better choice, but you don't want to detroy your house defending it now do you?