Yet another possible situation thwarted

chris in va · February 28, 2005, 02:07 AM

Friend of mine is a bondsman that also does street sweeping as a second job. From what I understand, he was standing on a sidewalk at night waiting for his dad (running the truck) to come back when a guy in a trench coat started walking toward him.

He gave the guy a verbal warning to keep his distance, but kept going. At that point he flipped his coat back to expose his CCW in the holster and told him again to back off. The guy stopped saying "I was just gonna ask for a cigarette", then promptly left rather quickly.

Apparently that area is really high in MS-13 concentration and had a shooting 2 weeks ago in front of the grocery store.

Once I get more accurate info I'll update.

TheeBadOne · February 28, 2005, 02:49 AM

Some dude show me a pistol in his waistband, I'm gonna take off, nicotine fit be dammed!

KONY · February 28, 2005, 12:12 PM

Chris,

What if the guy decided to call the cops and say your friend threatened him? I am no expert but from what I have read, you should be the first person to call the police if you decide to expose your piece. Am I correct?

Which reminds me, I need to get a cell phone BEFORE attempting to carry.

Maxprime · February 28, 2005, 12:15 PM

You don't want to call the cops if you purposely exposed your firearm - usually a Class A misdemeanor. This was actually an unwarranted exposure, you expose your firearm as you're firing it. You have to wait for yourself to be in actual danger, not speculative danger.

chris in va · February 28, 2005, 12:41 PM

Hmm, I read up on the law concerning 'brandishing firearms' and considering he feared possible harm and was done in self defense, it is legal to expose in that manner.

"It is a class 1 misdemeanor to hold, point or brandish a firearm, or anything that looks like a firearm, or a bb gun, if it is intentionally done in a way that causes someone to fear they may be shot or injured".

"This law does not apply to using a firearm for legitimate self defense."

So basically you have to wait for the guy to walk right up to you, whip out a knife and THEN you can whip the coat back?

Duxman · February 28, 2005, 12:43 PM

I dont think exposing your firearm while it is still in its holster (especially after a verbal warning) would constitute brandishing. Now if your friend drew his weapon, and pointed it in the general direction of the BG, that might be considered brandishing and /or assualt.

Funny thing, last Saturday night, my Fiance, new dog and I were watching TV when there was a knock on the door. I walked up to investigate (carrying my CZ 100 9mm) in my hip holster, and it was a mid 20's hispanic male in a hoody. (Never seen him before), I asked him what he wanted (and he blurted something about being sent to my address), I did not open the door, I told him he was at the wrong place, he blurted a couple more unrecognizable statements, (door is pretty thick, and double windows), and ran off without knocking on any other neighbor's doors.

Pretty strange. But I decided to load up the 12 gauge in case he and his buddies get some ideas. Another potential issue thwarted by reading tactics on this page, especially on answering your door after dark.

THANK YOU FIRING LINE!!!!

Avizpls · February 28, 2005, 12:45 PM

No even then you cant. Cuz you are only SPECULATING that he will USE the knife. Then when he stabbs you, you can only speculate it will be a "life threatening" wound. THEN you can brandishand use your gun together. My point is when do you decide you could be in danger of losing life. How many "ifs" are in your condition statement. If he has a black coat, if he is walking fast, if his hands are in his pockets, and if he doesnt stop by ten feet THEN Ill do so and so. Or if he pulls a gun, Ill do so and so.

chris in va · February 28, 2005, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Cuz you are only SPECULATING that he will USE the knife. Then when he stabbs you, you can only speculate it will be a "life threatening" wound

I forgot to mention that this area has seen a high number of MS-13 stabbings/shootings in the past 2 years. We're all on guard around here. And yes, I'm moving soon.

jburtonpdx · February 28, 2005, 08:53 PM

I forget the exact numbers, but an average person can cover a distance of 1 foot every half second when running or something like that... So at 10 feet it would take 5 seconds for the subject to be on top of you. Thats just an average person...

Not much time to make a decision. Most of us seem to do at least a portion of our training at 21 feet, closing that distance would take about 10 seconds...

I have a feeling that most BG's are not going to be polite enough to give any advance notification that they are going to do something bad. Tactically the BG wants us surprised and compromised. They want to be able to control what we do as well as intimidate us into submission.

Fear of imminent death or bodily injury justifies use of deadly force in Ohio (according to the pamphlet I read, note I am not an attorney). I think that imminent is the keyword there. Seems as though it puts us between a rock and hard place. If the BG does not show his hand until on top of us we are going to end up in a wrestling match...

TheeBadOne · February 28, 2005, 11:10 PM

Quote:

So at 10 feet it would take 5 seconds for the subject to be on top of you. Thats just an average person...

Not much time to make a decision. Most of us seem to do at least a portion of our training at 21 feet, closing that distance would take about 10 seconds...

chris in va · March 1, 2005, 01:40 AM

I think it's a lot faster than that. Mark off 10 feet and walk to the target. Bet it takes less than 5 seconds.

Cryptoboy · March 1, 2005, 01:52 AM

It is alot faster than that, 21 feet can be covered in about 4 seconds by your average person......

bdc · March 1, 2005, 01:55 AM

Am older. Various times. Removing folded Emerson or similar knife from a pair of Levis on command to throat level - timed 1.1 second. Women can do it faster than me.

Drawing a Glock from the waist band on command to shooting dead center - .5 to .65 second. A martial artist was doing the draw from under a jacket from an inside the waist band holster in .35 second. A woman in class last Sunday was doing it in .4 second.

Football players do the 40 yard sprints in less than 5 seconds.

gxi.llc · March 1, 2005, 02:09 AM

It has been written that a BG with a knife can stick you inside 21 feet before you can shoot him, but I don't remember the exact breakdown. It is something like .5 second to see what is happening, .5 second to recognize it is a threat, .5 second to decide what to do, 2.5 seconds to draw and fire, or thereabouts. Anyway, use your head and don't get too far behind.

jlwatts3 · March 1, 2005, 03:34 AM

In the defensive pistol course I took, we lined up 7 yards from the targets and the instructor was facing us standing next to the targets. (To the side and out of or line of fire). He said go and started running towards us and we tried to draw and shoot our targets before he covered the distance. We all tried about a dozen times and no one was close. And we even knew we were supposed to shoot. If you had to make the decision and draw and shoot you would be toast. Try it sometime (safely). Its a real wake up call.

Duxman · March 1, 2005, 01:23 PM

I would think that tactical awareness would play a lot into these situations. Knowing what is around you, and being ready before the BG gets the jump on you would either prevent this encounter from happening or give you the upper hand.

If someone is coming at you in an agressive manner, especially when there is nothing behind you but your car and an empty parking lot, a verbal warning and going for your weapon while still keeping it hidden is probably a prudent thing.

Reaction times are a big factor if you have to quick draw from the cold, (Pull coat, or shirt, and reach for weapon). But I would think, if you are expecting trouble, and have your hand on the grip of your weapon ready to draw, the reaction time would cut down significantly.

Dwight55 · March 1, 2005, 06:54 PM

Duxman wrote, "I would think that tactical awareness would play a lot into these situations. Knowing what is around you, and being ready before the BG gets the jump on you would either prevent this encounter from happening or give you the upper hand."

Tactical awareness is the only ace any of us have in these situations. If you wait till the bg announces his/her intentions, . . . you're on the proverbial pool table and as they say: behind the 8 ball.

That goes double for most of us CCW types who are no longer 22 years old and able to do the 100 in 11 flat.

May God bless,
Dwight

Metellus · March 2, 2005, 03:37 AM

I don't see how you can be brandishing a firearm in your holster esp if Virginia law allows you to open carry. In fact in restaurants that serve liquor I usually take my coat off before entering because I am required to open carry in those establishments. So everytime I flip my jacket back or take off my coat to open carry somehow that's brandishment?

I mean if I told someone stand back. Then flip back my coat... that's just open carry. If I open carried to begin with and said step back that can't automatically mean brandishment.

Now if I said stand back or I'll shoot then put my hand on the gun that could be brandishment. If I drew it while yelling at the guy that's definitely brandishment. Then again its up the juries and unless you really shot the dude or drew the gun I doubt most cops would actually arrest you. Any time you use a handgun in legitiamte self defense where you felt fear I would call the police to get your side of the story documented just in case the BG called the cops to mess with you and told them an outlandish story.

jtkwon · March 2, 2005, 09:22 AM

In Virginia, open carry is legal as of last July.

perception · March 9, 2005, 06:08 PM

I can run a 40 in under 5 seconds. 40 yards is 120 feet. 120 divided by 20 is 6. that is covering that 20 feet in under a second. allowing for slower speeds at first due to acceleration, thats still only around a second till its too late to draw. If they are already moving you have even less time. a friend of mine got jumped outside of his apartment, and the guy covered the 15 feet from his hiding spot to my friend so fast my friend couldnt even brace himself for impact. he had to get a lot of stiches, and it would have been worse if people from other apartments hadnt walked outside just then.

skidmark · March 9, 2005, 06:33 PM

No question that open carry is legal in Virginia, and that the shall-issue status of the CHP is not questioned except by a few misguided folks who seem to get corrected by Virginia Citizen Defense League.

But the question was about "brandishing" -- the best collection I have found of case law in Virginia is at www.virginia1774.org. Check them out and you may be as surprised as I was how the Virginia Supreme Court has ruled!

stay safe.

skidmark

1bigtaco · March 9, 2005, 06:42 PM

From 10 ft I would be on top of you before the sensory nerves in your brain could tell you arm to reach for that sidearm....

KONY · March 9, 2005, 10:34 PM

Quote:

But the question was about "brandishing" -- the best collection I have found of case law in Virginia is at www.virginia1774.org. Check them out and you may be as surprised as I was how the Virginia Supreme Court has ruled!

The creator of that site is a shooting buddy of mine. Very good info there.

TheeBadOne · March 9, 2005, 11:14 PM

w4klr · March 9, 2005, 11:28 PM

It's like I've read as someone's signature, I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by six.

February 28, 2005, 02:07 AM	#1
chris in va Senior Member Join Date: December 26, 2004 Location: Louisville KY Posts: 13,806	Yet another possible situation thwarted Friend of mine is a bondsman that also does street sweeping as a second job. From what I understand, he was standing on a sidewalk at night waiting for his dad (running the truck) to come back when a guy in a trench coat started walking toward him. He gave the guy a verbal warning to keep his distance, but kept going. At that point he flipped his coat back to expose his CCW in the holster and told him again to back off. The guy stopped saying "I was just gonna ask for a cigarette", then promptly left rather quickly. Apparently that area is really high in MS-13 concentration and had a shooting 2 weeks ago in front of the grocery store. Once I get more accurate info I'll update.

February 28, 2005, 08:53 PM	#9
jburtonpdx Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2005 Posts: 267	speed of travel I forget the exact numbers, but an average person can cover a distance of 1 foot every half second when running or something like that... So at 10 feet it would take 5 seconds for the subject to be on top of you. Thats just an average person... Not much time to make a decision. Most of us seem to do at least a portion of our training at 21 feet, closing that distance would take about 10 seconds... I have a feeling that most BG's are not going to be polite enough to give any advance notification that they are going to do something bad. Tactically the BG wants us surprised and compromised. They want to be able to control what we do as well as intimidate us into submission. Fear of imminent death or bodily injury justifies use of deadly force in Ohio (according to the pamphlet I read, note I am not an attorney). I think that imminent is the keyword there. Seems as though it puts us between a rock and hard place. If the BG does not show his hand until on top of us we are going to end up in a wrestling match...

March 1, 2005, 01:52 AM	#12
Cryptoboy Senior Member Join Date: December 22, 2004 Location: Tempe, AZ Posts: 118	It is alot faster than that, 21 feet can be covered in about 4 seconds by your average person...... __________________ No, I will not fix your computer. Go NOLES!!!!!

March 1, 2005, 01:55 AM	#13
bdc Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Posts: 60	Time Am older. Various times. Removing folded Emerson or similar knife from a pair of Levis on command to throat level - timed 1.1 second. Women can do it faster than me. Drawing a Glock from the waist band on command to shooting dead center - .5 to .65 second. A martial artist was doing the draw from under a jacket from an inside the waist band holster in .35 second. A woman in class last Sunday was doing it in .4 second. Football players do the 40 yard sprints in less than 5 seconds.

March 1, 2005, 02:09 AM	#14
gxi.llc Senior Member Join Date: October 7, 2004 Posts: 132	21 feet It has been written that a BG with a knife can stick you inside 21 feet before you can shoot him, but I don't remember the exact breakdown. It is something like .5 second to see what is happening, .5 second to recognize it is a threat, .5 second to decide what to do, 2.5 seconds to draw and fire, or thereabouts. Anyway, use your head and don't get too far behind.

February 28, 2005, 02:49 AM	#2
TheeBadOne Junior member Join Date: January 12, 2002 Location: USA Posts: 1,191	Some dude show me a pistol in his waistband, I'm gonna take off, nicotine fit be dammed!

February 28, 2005, 12:12 PM	#3
KONY Senior Member Join Date: November 12, 2004 Posts: 109	Chris, What if the guy decided to call the cops and say your friend threatened him? I am no expert but from what I have read, you should be the first person to call the police if you decide to expose your piece. Am I correct? Which reminds me, I need to get a cell phone BEFORE attempting to carry.

February 28, 2005, 12:15 PM	#4
Maxprime Member Join Date: February 28, 2005 Posts: 42	You don't want to call the cops if you purposely exposed your firearm - usually a Class A misdemeanor. This was actually an unwarranted exposure, you expose your firearm as you're firing it. You have to wait for yourself to be in actual danger, not speculative danger.

February 28, 2005, 12:41 PM	#5
chris in va Senior Member Join Date: December 26, 2004 Location: Louisville KY Posts: 13,806	Hmm, I read up on the law concerning 'brandishing firearms' and considering he feared possible harm and was done in self defense, it is legal to expose in that manner. "It is a class 1 misdemeanor to hold, point or brandish a firearm, or anything that looks like a firearm, or a bb gun, if it is intentionally done in a way that causes someone to fear they may be shot or injured". "This law does not apply to using a firearm for legitimate self defense." So basically you have to wait for the guy to walk right up to you, whip out a knife and THEN you can whip the coat back?

February 28, 2005, 12:43 PM	#6
Duxman Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2005 Location: VA Posts: 1,294	I dont think exposing your firearm while it is still in its holster (especially after a verbal warning) would constitute brandishing. Now if your friend drew his weapon, and pointed it in the general direction of the BG, that might be considered brandishing and /or assualt. Funny thing, last Saturday night, my Fiance, new dog and I were watching TV when there was a knock on the door. I walked up to investigate (carrying my CZ 100 9mm) in my hip holster, and it was a mid 20's hispanic male in a hoody. (Never seen him before), I asked him what he wanted (and he blurted something about being sent to my address), I did not open the door, I told him he was at the wrong place, he blurted a couple more unrecognizable statements, (door is pretty thick, and double windows), and ran off without knocking on any other neighbor's doors. Pretty strange. But I decided to load up the 12 gauge in case he and his buddies get some ideas. Another potential issue thwarted by reading tactics on this page, especially on answering your door after dark. THANK YOU FIRING LINE!!!!

February 28, 2005, 12:45 PM	#7
Avizpls Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2004 Posts: 774	No even then you cant. Cuz you are only SPECULATING that he will USE the knife. Then when he stabbs you, you can only speculate it will be a "life threatening" wound. THEN you can brandishand use your gun together. My point is when do you decide you could be in danger of losing life. How many "ifs" are in your condition statement. If he has a black coat, if he is walking fast, if his hands are in his pockets, and if he doesnt stop by ten feet THEN Ill do so and so. Or if he pulls a gun, Ill do so and so.

March 1, 2005, 01:40 AM	#11
chris in va Senior Member Join Date: December 26, 2004 Location: Louisville KY Posts: 13,806	I think it's a lot faster than that. Mark off 10 feet and walk to the target. Bet it takes less than 5 seconds.

March 1, 2005, 03:34 AM	#15
jlwatts3 Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2004 Posts: 150	In the defensive pistol course I took, we lined up 7 yards from the targets and the instructor was facing us standing next to the targets. (To the side and out of or line of fire). He said go and started running towards us and we tried to draw and shoot our targets before he covered the distance. We all tried about a dozen times and no one was close. And we even knew we were supposed to shoot. If you had to make the decision and draw and shoot you would be toast. Try it sometime (safely). Its a real wake up call.

March 1, 2005, 01:23 PM	#16
Duxman Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2005 Location: VA Posts: 1,294	I would think that tactical awareness would play a lot into these situations. Knowing what is around you, and being ready before the BG gets the jump on you would either prevent this encounter from happening or give you the upper hand. If someone is coming at you in an agressive manner, especially when there is nothing behind you but your car and an empty parking lot, a verbal warning and going for your weapon while still keeping it hidden is probably a prudent thing. Reaction times are a big factor if you have to quick draw from the cold, (Pull coat, or shirt, and reach for weapon). But I would think, if you are expecting trouble, and have your hand on the grip of your weapon ready to draw, the reaction time would cut down significantly.

March 1, 2005, 06:54 PM	#17
Dwight55 Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2004 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 2,568	Duxman wrote, "I would think that tactical awareness would play a lot into these situations. Knowing what is around you, and being ready before the BG gets the jump on you would either prevent this encounter from happening or give you the upper hand." Tactical awareness is the only ace any of us have in these situations. If you wait till the bg announces his/her intentions, . . . you're on the proverbial pool table and as they say: behind the 8 ball. That goes double for most of us CCW types who are no longer 22 years old and able to do the 100 in 11 flat. May God bless, Dwight __________________ www.dwightsgunleather.com If you can breathe, . . . thank God! If you can read, . . . thank a teacher! If you are reading this in English, . . . thank a Veteran!

March 2, 2005, 03:37 AM	#18
Metellus Senior Member Join Date: December 16, 2004 Posts: 156	? I don't see how you can be brandishing a firearm in your holster esp if Virginia law allows you to open carry. In fact in restaurants that serve liquor I usually take my coat off before entering because I am required to open carry in those establishments. So everytime I flip my jacket back or take off my coat to open carry somehow that's brandishment? I mean if I told someone stand back. Then flip back my coat... that's just open carry. If I open carried to begin with and said step back that can't automatically mean brandishment. Now if I said stand back or I'll shoot then put my hand on the gun that could be brandishment. If I drew it while yelling at the guy that's definitely brandishment. Then again its up the juries and unless you really shot the dude or drew the gun I doubt most cops would actually arrest you. Any time you use a handgun in legitiamte self defense where you felt fear I would call the police to get your side of the story documented just in case the BG called the cops to mess with you and told them an outlandish story.

March 2, 2005, 09:22 AM	#19
jtkwon Member Join Date: June 4, 2004 Posts: 99	In Virginia, open carry is legal as of last July.

March 9, 2005, 06:08 PM	#20
perception Senior Member Join Date: March 9, 2005 Location: Tennessee Posts: 421	I can run a 40 in under 5 seconds. 40 yards is 120 feet. 120 divided by 20 is 6. that is covering that 20 feet in under a second. allowing for slower speeds at first due to acceleration, thats still only around a second till its too late to draw. If they are already moving you have even less time. a friend of mine got jumped outside of his apartment, and the guy covered the 15 feet from his hiding spot to my friend so fast my friend couldnt even brace himself for impact. he had to get a lot of stiches, and it would have been worse if people from other apartments hadnt walked outside just then.

March 9, 2005, 06:33 PM	#21
skidmark Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2005 Location: Richmond VA - home of a street full of second-place trophies. Posts: 151	No question that open carry is legal in Virginia, and that the shall-issue status of the CHP is not questioned except by a few misguided folks who seem to get corrected by Virginia Citizen Defense League. But the question was about "brandishing" -- the best collection I have found of case law in Virginia is at www.virginia1774.org. Check them out and you may be as surprised as I was how the Virginia Supreme Court has ruled! stay safe. skidmark

March 9, 2005, 06:42 PM	#22
1bigtaco Member Join Date: December 7, 2004 Location: Alabama Posts: 23	From 10 ft I would be on top of you before the sensory nerves in your brain could tell you arm to reach for that sidearm....

March 9, 2005, 11:14 PM	#24
TheeBadOne Junior member Join Date: January 12, 2002 Location: USA Posts: 1,191

March 9, 2005, 11:28 PM	#25
w4klr Junior member Join Date: December 22, 2004 Location: Ft. Lauderdale, Fl Posts: 280	It's like I've read as someone's signature, I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by six.

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