Not neck tension

mikld · January 24, 2014, 12:27 PM

Not wanting to hijack the "Neck Tension" thread, I'll simplify for my question; What would be a good difference between case neck ID and bullet OD on a .270 Winchester and a 30-06 Springfield. .002"? .004"?

The thread on neck tension got way off into theory and referenced links to sizing, bushings, etc.....

F. Guffey · January 24, 2014, 01:18 PM

mikld,

Quote:

The thread on neck tension got way off into theory and referenced links to sizing, bushings, etc.....

Neck tension sounds cool, I can not measure tension, I have tension gages, the big problem? Lay-out/set-up. I can not get a tension gage inside the neck of the case.

Labeling and neat bundles, I use bullet hold. I want all the bullet hold I can get. I have an old reloading book that uses bullet hold, seems the manual suggest crimping could lessen bullet hold.

F. Guffey

Brian Pfleuger · January 24, 2014, 01:21 PM

Brass cases have a "spring back" of between 0.001 and 0.002, going beyond 0.002 will only cause more work hardening.

longspurr · January 24, 2014, 01:25 PM

Answer: yes

Lets look at this as why do we want "Neck Tension".
1) we want to keep the bullet from being pushed back into the case - or falling out.
2) a higher case neck tension helps burn slower powders.

So we like tension, but we do not want to deform the bullet base while getting it.
The numbers .002"? .004" are often quoted so as to have the case mouth small enough that the bullet has to force its way into the case. We can have Micrometers & Pin gauges to measure the bullet & case mouth. Or we can simply note that there is resistance when seating the rifle bullet. Consistant seating resistance between rounds when loading is a good thing.

F. Guffey · January 24, 2014, 01:25 PM

Tension, I have tension gages, they measure deviation and deviation to thousandths to pounds. I have replaced many holes, never a mention of tension, always crush fit and interference fit, same for cylinders, never cylinder hole tension, sounds cool, hole tension to describe what ever it is that holds a guide, then there is the effort to install a guide and or a cylinder.

F. Guffey

mikld · January 24, 2014, 04:24 PM

Well, one outta 5 ain't bad. Please note the title of the thread "Not Neck Tension". I know why it's needed, I know there isn't an easy way for the average reloader to measure "tension" and many other factors can come into play (alloy of bullet, hardness of case, stray lube on case/bullet, etc.). To simplify "neck tension" for new reloaders (and some old reloaders too), the "press fit" or diameter difference is easier stated; as in the jacketed bullet can be/should be .002" larger than inside diameter of the case neck...

F. Guffey · January 24, 2014, 04:40 PM

[

Quote:

Labeling and neat bundles,

Quote:

mikld Well, one outta 5 ain't bad. Please note the title of the thread "Not Neck Tension". I know why it's needed, I know there isn't an easy way for the average reloader to measure "tension" and many other factors can come into play (alloy of bullet, hardness of case, stray lube on case/bullet, etc.). To simplify "neck tension" for new reloaders (and some old reloaders too), the "press fit" or diameter difference is easier stated; as in the jacketed bullet can be/should be .002" larger than inside diameter of the case neck...

I could agree but that would drive everyone to the other side of the room.

There is a lot of self gratification and self esteem placed on labeling and rediscovery. Take head space and the case, I can not find case head space as it applies top SAAMI, therefore the case has a length from the shoulder of the case to the head of the case.

F. Guffey

steve4102 · January 24, 2014, 08:24 PM

From Lee Precision.

The Mandrels for the Collet Dies are made to .002" to .003" under nominal bullet diameter as there is about .001" to .002" of spring back. When the case neck is finished being sized, we want the case neck to be .001" under nominal bullet diameter.

I find this amount of "Neck Tension" inadequate and reduce my mandrels by .001-.002 for .002-.003 "Neck Tension". Anything less than that and I can push the bullet into the case with ease. Anything more than than and accuracy suffers. YMMV

243winxb · January 25, 2014, 09:08 AM

Yes, neck tension holds the bullet. The neck is sized down a little more then needed by the die. Then the expander opens the inside of the neck to the correct diameter. Expander diameter is about .002" smaller than bullet diameter. Measure the neck diameter before and after seating a bullet. The neck should have expanded about .002" after seating the bullet. This should give a bullet pull of around 45 lbs when loading a 223/5.56 cartridge. More or lesss, depends on the neck area in contact with the bullets bearing surface. The Lee collet die would be different. The Redding bushing dies may not need an expander.

Bart B. · January 25, 2014, 09:51 AM

No sizing die needs an expander if its neck is the right diameter. Doesn't matter if it's the die's neck or a bushing inside the die. All of my 30 caliber expander balls are about .307" diameter and end up making case mouths about .306" diameter. Which is why I bought a bunch of .303 caliber expander balls at about .310" diameter then polished them down to .3075" to .3085" for different neck wall thicknesses which made case mouths better sized so bullet jacket material would not be scraped off. Still held bullets tight enough to stay in place in box magazines and not shift in recoil.

Case necks are typically straighter sized in full length sized cases that don't have expander balls.

F. Guffey · January 27, 2014, 03:34 PM

Mikld, I dug deep and way back for an article in a magazine, it will not be of much help, the article was written in the mid 70s, before Al Gore did not invent the Internet. Omitted from the article? Neck tension, the article did mention bullet hold and grip, the article also distinguished differences between shooters and bench resters' rifles.

Seems I went to too much trouble, I could have dug too far back, I had the same problem when I went back to the mid 50s for reference material, again, neck tension was omitted from the older book.

F. Guffey

mikld · January 28, 2014, 12:25 PM

Thanks for your trouble Mr. Guffy, but my question, which I explained why, was about fit between bullet and sized neck. Original post titled "Not Neck Tension", and tried to explain further in my second post that I just asked (not only for my info. but for any newer reloader with concerns about bullet/case fit) the optimal difference between bullet and case...

F. Guffey · January 28, 2014, 01:17 PM

Quote:

I just asked (not only for my info. but for any newer reloader with concerns about bullet/case fit)

Forgive, I understood the question, the article covered press fit, it also covered interference fit. Problem? Getting most of the information pass the choir, neck tension did not get a grip on reloaders until the discovery/development of the Internet, then? some bully personality with a big ego insisted ‘WE’ call bullet hold/grip neck tension. Back then I could not measure neck tension in pounds, I have tension gages, I have deviation and I have strain gages.

Getting something past the choir, they want to lay claim to the discovery even if it is for the sake of renaming ‘it’.

Brian Pfleuger · January 28, 2014, 01:23 PM

Or, somebody simply gets fixated on what they personally consider to be an incorrect word or usage of a word and uses every opportunity of it's usage to bloviate about their hatred of such word, whether or not such bloviating has any bearing or helps provide a coherent answer to the question.

Bart B. · January 28, 2014, 02:24 PM

Neck tension did not get a grip on reloaders until the discovery/development of the fact that if there wasn't enough holding the bullet in a cartridge before and when it was fired, bad things would happen. That started over a hundred years ago after folks reloaded only their rifles (and pistols, too) with the first complete cartridges invented by the Frenchman Louis-Nicolas Flobert in 1845 that grew into "modern" primed brass case cartridges used in the late 1800's that were reloaded many times. And US arsenals established neck tension (release force?) specs long before WWII that reloaders emulated with their M1903's reloaded .30-06 ammo for decades. To say nothing of what's done today.

They didn't have the internet back then but there was the first binary communication that originated in 1821 which later was used in the Civil War (heliograph) and was the basis for the first good system of zeros (dots) and ones (dashes) used for communication over wires; the telegraph by Morse.

mikld · January 29, 2014, 07:19 PM

Bloviate? Thanks Mr. Pfleuger I needed that.

Also, some just have to have the last word...

F. Guffey · January 30, 2014, 09:31 AM

Quote:

I know there isn't an easy way for the average reloader to measure

And that was the point, there is an accurate way to measure the necks ability to hold a bullet, not in tensions but in pounds.

I know, seems the perception is, I am the problem, from over here it appears there are a lot of reloaders that have trouble keeping it together.

I mentioned an article, I did not mention the author or the magazine, that information is all that is required to set someone off on a rant about having a distain for an author or a publication

Quote:

I could agree but that would drive everyone to the other side of the room.

Participants on the Internet should not allow themselves to be provoked, those on the Internet can forget expect and settle for hope a monitor has one standard for all.

F. Guffey

Brian Pfleuger · January 30, 2014, 01:41 PM

The problem, Mr Guffey, has nothing to do with whether or not "neck tension" can be measured or if the measurement is in pounds or if it's "bullet hold" instead of "neck tension".

When somebody asks if they should use 87 or 89 octane in their car, they don't need or want a break down of RON and MON, the formula for the rating and a PhD dissertation on the development of the internal combustion engine.

How much smaller than the bullet does the neck need to be? That's all.

This is a simple question. It really doesn't matter how it's measured because no one asked, 99% of every one doesn't measure it, doesn't need to and never will. Not only will they never measure it, they couldn't care less how it's done and never will.

They're not going to blow themselves up or make bad ammo if they don't know and don't care how to measure "bullet hold" and a rambling, irrelevant, non-answer to the question they asked isn't helpful at all.

A simple, functional number like "0.002 and not more than 0.003 will work" and perhaps reference to the fact that a reloader could buy gauges and directly measure, should they be so inclined, would be entirely sufficient.

F. Guffey · January 30, 2014, 02:46 PM

O I C,

Then I am under no obligation nor do I have a responsibility to explain how easy it is to measure.

Quote:

The thread on neck tension got way off into theory and referenced links to sizing, bushings, etc.....

There is doing it and there is talking about it.

F. Guffey

RC20 · February 1, 2014, 01:04 PM

Oh good, when I come away more confused than I started my head hurts.

We really don't need to know the metallurgical makeup of our dies let alone the manufacturing process to use them. While its obviously fascinating to you most of use simply want the practical answer that works.

Been there, done that and have a T shirt. I won't get into truck driving on the Alaska Pipeline as interesting as that is to me.

January 24, 2014, 12:27 PM	#1
mikld Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2009 Location: Southern Oregon! Posts: 2,891	Not neck tension Not wanting to hijack the "Neck Tension" thread, I'll simplify for my question; What would be a good difference between case neck ID and bullet OD on a .270 Winchester and a 30-06 Springfield. .002"? .004"? The thread on neck tension got way off into theory and referenced links to sizing, bushings, etc..... __________________ My Anchor is holding fast! I've learned how to stand on my own two knees...

January 24, 2014, 01:21 PM	#3
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	Brass cases have a "spring back" of between 0.001 and 0.002, going beyond 0.002 will only cause more work hardening. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

January 24, 2014, 04:24 PM	#6
mikld Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2009 Location: Southern Oregon! Posts: 2,891	Well, one outta 5 ain't bad. Please note the title of the thread "Not Neck Tension". I know why it's needed, I know there isn't an easy way for the average reloader to measure "tension" and many other factors can come into play (alloy of bullet, hardness of case, stray lube on case/bullet, etc.). To simplify "neck tension" for new reloaders (and some old reloaders too), the "press fit" or diameter difference is easier stated; as in the jacketed bullet can be/should be .002" larger than inside diameter of the case neck... __________________ My Anchor is holding fast! I've learned how to stand on my own two knees...

January 25, 2014, 09:08 AM	#9
243winxb Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2011 Location: USA Posts: 1,730	Neck Tension-Standard Dies- FL & Neck types. Yes, neck tension holds the bullet. The neck is sized down a little more then needed by the die. Then the expander opens the inside of the neck to the correct diameter. Expander diameter is about .002" smaller than bullet diameter. Measure the neck diameter before and after seating a bullet. The neck should have expanded about .002" after seating the bullet. This should give a bullet pull of around 45 lbs when loading a 223/5.56 cartridge. More or lesss, depends on the neck area in contact with the bullets bearing surface. The Lee collet die would be different. The Redding bushing dies may not need an expander.

January 25, 2014, 09:51 AM	#10
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	No sizing die needs an expander if its neck is the right diameter. Doesn't matter if it's the die's neck or a bushing inside the die. All of my 30 caliber expander balls are about .307" diameter and end up making case mouths about .306" diameter. Which is why I bought a bunch of .303 caliber expander balls at about .310" diameter then polished them down to .3075" to .3085" for different neck wall thicknesses which made case mouths better sized so bullet jacket material would not be scraped off. Still held bullets tight enough to stay in place in box magazines and not shift in recoil. Case necks are typically straighter sized in full length sized cases that don't have expander balls. Last edited by Bart B.; January 28, 2014 at 11:21 AM.

January 24, 2014, 01:25 PM	#4
longspurr Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2002 Location: On the western shore Posts: 182	Answer: yes Lets look at this as why do we want "Neck Tension". 1) we want to keep the bullet from being pushed back into the case - or falling out. 2) a higher case neck tension helps burn slower powders. So we like tension, but we do not want to deform the bullet base while getting it. The numbers .002"? .004" are often quoted so as to have the case mouth small enough that the bullet has to force its way into the case. We can have Micrometers & Pin gauges to measure the bullet & case mouth. Or we can simply note that there is resistance when seating the rifle bullet. Consistant seating resistance between rounds when loading is a good thing.

January 24, 2014, 01:25 PM	#5
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	Tension, I have tension gages, they measure deviation and deviation to thousandths to pounds. I have replaced many holes, never a mention of tension, always crush fit and interference fit, same for cylinders, never cylinder hole tension, sounds cool, hole tension to describe what ever it is that holds a guide, then there is the effort to install a guide and or a cylinder. F. Guffey

January 24, 2014, 08:24 PM	#8
steve4102 Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,955	From Lee Precision. The Mandrels for the Collet Dies are made to .002" to .003" under nominal bullet diameter as there is about .001" to .002" of spring back. When the case neck is finished being sized, we want the case neck to be .001" under nominal bullet diameter. I find this amount of "Neck Tension" inadequate and reduce my mandrels by .001-.002 for .002-.003 "Neck Tension". Anything less than that and I can push the bullet into the case with ease. Anything more than than and accuracy suffers. YMMV

January 27, 2014, 03:34 PM	#11
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	Mikld, I dug deep and way back for an article in a magazine, it will not be of much help, the article was written in the mid 70s, before Al Gore did not invent the Internet. Omitted from the article? Neck tension, the article did mention bullet hold and grip, the article also distinguished differences between shooters and bench resters' rifles. Seems I went to too much trouble, I could have dug too far back, I had the same problem when I went back to the mid 50s for reference material, again, neck tension was omitted from the older book. F. Guffey

January 28, 2014, 12:25 PM	#12
mikld Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2009 Location: Southern Oregon! Posts: 2,891	Thanks for your trouble Mr. Guffy, but my question, which I explained why, was about fit between bullet and sized neck. Original post titled "Not Neck Tension", and tried to explain further in my second post that I just asked (not only for my info. but for any newer reloader with concerns about bullet/case fit) the optimal difference between bullet and case... __________________ My Anchor is holding fast! I've learned how to stand on my own two knees...

January 28, 2014, 01:23 PM	#14
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	Or, somebody simply gets fixated on what they personally consider to be an incorrect word or usage of a word and uses every opportunity of it's usage to bloviate about their hatred of such word, whether or not such bloviating has any bearing or helps provide a coherent answer to the question. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

January 28, 2014, 02:24 PM	#15
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	Neck tension did not get a grip on reloaders until the discovery/development of the fact that if there wasn't enough holding the bullet in a cartridge before and when it was fired, bad things would happen. That started over a hundred years ago after folks reloaded only their rifles (and pistols, too) with the first complete cartridges invented by the Frenchman Louis-Nicolas Flobert in 1845 that grew into "modern" primed brass case cartridges used in the late 1800's that were reloaded many times. And US arsenals established neck tension (release force?) specs long before WWII that reloaders emulated with their M1903's reloaded .30-06 ammo for decades. To say nothing of what's done today. They didn't have the internet back then but there was the first binary communication that originated in 1821 which later was used in the Civil War (heliograph) and was the basis for the first good system of zeros (dots) and ones (dashes) used for communication over wires; the telegraph by Morse.

January 29, 2014, 07:19 PM	#16
mikld Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2009 Location: Southern Oregon! Posts: 2,891	Bloviate? Thanks Mr. Pfleuger I needed that. Also, some just have to have the last word... __________________ My Anchor is holding fast! I've learned how to stand on my own two knees...

January 30, 2014, 01:41 PM	#18
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	The problem, Mr Guffey, has nothing to do with whether or not "neck tension" can be measured or if the measurement is in pounds or if it's "bullet hold" instead of "neck tension". When somebody asks if they should use 87 or 89 octane in their car, they don't need or want a break down of RON and MON, the formula for the rating and a PhD dissertation on the development of the internal combustion engine. How much smaller than the bullet does the neck need to be? That's all. This is a simple question. It really doesn't matter how it's measured because no one asked, 99% of every one doesn't measure it, doesn't need to and never will. Not only will they never measure it, they couldn't care less how it's done and never will. They're not going to blow themselves up or make bad ammo if they don't know and don't care how to measure "bullet hold" and a rambling, irrelevant, non-answer to the question they asked isn't helpful at all. A simple, functional number like "0.002 and not more than 0.003 will work" and perhaps reference to the fact that a reloader could buy gauges and directly measure, should they be so inclined, would be entirely sufficient. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

February 1, 2014, 01:04 PM	#20
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,014	Oh good, when I come away more confused than I started my head hurts. We really don't need to know the metallurgical makeup of our dies let alone the manufacturing process to use them. While its obviously fascinating to you most of use simply want the practical answer that works. Been there, done that and have a T shirt. I won't get into truck driving on the Alaska Pipeline as interesting as that is to me.