Velocity & Accuracy?

ZVP · July 7, 2012, 01:10 PM

Why is it that when I approach the 1000fps mark with revolvers in either .36 or .44 cal, Accuracy increases and Groups shrink? I have noted this at 7 and 15 yard targets.
I have noted that 600fps loads aren't quite as accurate. Do low velocity balls tend to wander due to an unstable spin?
ZVP

Hawg · July 7, 2012, 02:14 PM

That's pretty much been my experience also but most folks swear up and down the powder puff loads are most accurate.

kwhi43 · July 7, 2012, 05:06 PM

I happen to know the loads the top shooters shoot at Friendship and they
Are not the 1000 fps ones. They are not the powder puff 600 fps either.

ZVP · July 7, 2012, 06:02 PM

Maybe 800fps then? LOL!
Please expand that clue you teased us with, OK?
Seriously, using Pyrodex, the closer I am to 1000 fps the better! I am too poor of an offhand shot to gauge 25 yard groups but if I had some sort of mehicanical rest to lock it into, I bet I'd find the same results!
Untill I get better "Puff" load groups I think I'll stick with the fast ones.
ZVP

mykeal · July 7, 2012, 07:16 PM

My experience:

'Slow', low power loads are difficult to shoot accurately with any consistency, although sometimes I can do fairly well.

'Fast', high power loads are generally more consistent in terms of accuracy, although when you get to full chamber loads accuracy goes out the window pretty quickly.

If I don't want to play games with loads and I'm looking for the most accurate one that I can pretty much count on (like shooting a match) it's been my experience that 'moderate' loads are unilaterally the best.

All of the above does not, however, lead to any given muzzle velocity as 'the best'. A moderate, or better yet, optimum, load in a Walker is not the same as one in an 1860 Army or 1858 Remington.

Hawg · July 7, 2012, 07:18 PM

I don't shoot for groups and despise punching paper period. I'm deadly on Coke cans at 25 yards tho and that's good enough for me.

North East Redneck · July 7, 2012, 07:43 PM

What HAWG said.
Sure, clover leaf groups are cool. One big ragged hole is great. I shoot at 4X4 inch air gun targets at 30-50 feet, six holes in that, I'm happy.
With the 1858, they are mostly in the 7-10 ring. That works for me.
But, as with airguns, it is a whole lotta fun to pitch a can an unknown distance, and drop the hammer on it. Hitting em makes for a fun shooting experience.

kwhi43 · July 7, 2012, 08:39 PM

And I despise shooting at Cans!

duelist1954 · July 7, 2012, 08:49 PM

I love shooting cans.

Beagle333 · July 7, 2012, 09:14 PM

My 1860's like to shoot faster, especially the Colt. I'd have trouble hitting milk jugs if I shot that one slow. Now the Walker..... it's happy with anything. It'll shoot as steady as I can hold it, using any load.

('Bout equal between shooting cans/paper for me)

Hawg · July 7, 2012, 09:24 PM

Quote:

And I despise shooting at Cans!

That's your right and nobody is knocking you for it. I just like to see something happen. I shoot lots of stuff not just cans but I shoot more cans than anything else.

mykeal · July 8, 2012, 06:24 AM

Quote:

I shoot lots of stuff not just cans but I shoot more cans than anything else.

Hmmm. A deep seated antipathy towards aluminum containers. Tell me, how do you feel about airplanes? Helicopters?

Hawg · July 8, 2012, 08:58 AM

Wellllll, I never actually shot one down.

Doc Hoy · July 8, 2012, 09:11 AM

A helicopter is just about a hundred thousand individual parts flying in formation.

Doc Hoy · July 8, 2012, 09:20 AM

I have never been to a CAS event and don’t know how they are scored. Hawg’s statement about powder puff loads I assume addresses the CAS loads. Hawg, correct me if I am wrong about that. Those shooters who report best accuracy in powder puff loads may be defining accuracy in a way that is different from ZVP. They may be referring to hitting roughly center of mass consistently on a non-stationary target. (Again…I do not know how CAS events are scored). Anyway, it appears that ZVP is referring to basic accuracy of the pistol and shooter system. Z, correct me if I am wrong about that.

Let me ask some questions about that system.

I have often wondered how much the revolver moves after the instant that the power in the chamber begins to ignite, but before the projectile leaves the muzzle. High speed camera videos might be helpful here (but I have not looked for them. I know there are some very good videos on the internet but most have more to do with the projectile hitting the target.) I think it is logical to believe that (all other things being equal) a heavier pistol will move less than a lighter one. I think those of us who shoot Dragoon’s or Walker’s have noted that the revolver seems to be very stabile in comparison to a .44 in 1851 pattern.

I would be happy to have your observations on that.

As regards velocity versus accuracy, it seems as though, the more time it takes for the projectile to travel from the muzzle to the target, the more time that the external forces will have to act on the projectile. Any force acting upon the projectile after it leaves the muzzle and not perfectly aligned with the direction of travel from the muzzle to the target (In a vector impacting windage or elevation) would seem to fall into the category of forces I am referring to. Gravity is a good example. I think we would all agree that if we fire a given revolver at a target that is seven yards distant, we get a smaller group than when firing that same revolver with the same load at a target that is fifteen yards away. Two things going on here. 1. A target that is further away is likely harder to aim at than a target that is closer. (That has nothing to do with Z's post). 2. A bullet traveling twice as far will take almost twice as long to get to the target.

Does any of this make sense?

Shotgun693 · July 8, 2012, 09:53 AM

I do shoot CAS, shot yesterday. Anyway, you just need to hit a 10"X10" square at 20' or less to play the game and shoot well.
In my experience a warm load tends to shoot better in a non-magnum handgun. By this I'm talking about 900 fps. My CAS load, carry load, hunting load is a 200 gr RNFP lead bullet at 920 fps. Seems real accurate in my SAA and shoots close to point of aim.

B.L.E. · July 8, 2012, 10:57 AM

In CAS, the number of seconds needed to shoot the stage is your score with 5 seconds added for each miss. Low score is the winner.

A lot simpler than IPSC.

Hawg · July 8, 2012, 01:07 PM

No Doc. I was referring to the ones that shoot 15-20 grains of powder out of .44's and rave about the accuracy. That lil dab of powder ain't worth wasting a cap on.

Doc Hoy · July 8, 2012, 01:43 PM

....Got it.

North East Redneck · July 8, 2012, 05:05 PM

Hawg, I shoot my 1858 with 23gr of 777, still using up 100's of .451 balls, no wads and #11 CCI. I get results I'm happy with. What is your opinion on this load? What should I experiment with to improve accuracy?
As stated above, I enjoy shooting cans, plastic bottles or whatever. Do quite well, most of the time that is.
You really know your stuff from what I've read on here. Any input on other loads? I've messed around with loads, stopped when accuracy was good enough. But hey, I'm always trying to learn and get better.

Hawg · July 8, 2012, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Hawg, I shoot my 1858 with 23gr of 777, still using up 100's of .451 balls, no wads and #11 CCI. I get results I'm happy with. What is your opinion on this load?

If you're happy with it that's all that matters. That's about 26 1/2 grains of bp. I won't use less than 30 in a 44. I do not paper punch so I don't care about how tight it will group. I use .454 balls and a lubed wad. As long as I can hit a Coke can at 25 yards more often than not I'm a happy camper.

North East Redneck · July 8, 2012, 06:55 PM

Thanks for the reply. Coke can @ 25 is very nice. And I'm happy enough with it. All that is available here is 777, 209 and very rarely pyrodex.

Hawg · July 8, 2012, 07:24 PM

I use Pyrodex. I can get 777 but it's almost twice as much as Pyro. 209 can't be used with percussion caps and is over three times the price of Pyro.

North East Redneck · July 8, 2012, 08:45 PM

Hawg-
What are you paying for Pyrodex? Last three pounds of 777 FFFG I bought were $27 each. The Blackhorn was about $35 a pound. Nice for the inline rifle and shotgun, don't have much experience with it, but seems quite good so far. I load light.
Wish I could find some GOEX or similar around here.
The big stores are getting $35 for 777. Seems to be all they stock.
Life in Mass, rules, regs and restrictions everywhere you look

Hawg · July 8, 2012, 10:23 PM

The last Pyro I bought was 19.00. 777 was 35.00 and 209 was 35.00 for 10 oz.

July 7, 2012, 07:43 PM	#7
North East Redneck Senior Member Join Date: June 6, 2012 Location: Berkshire Hills Posts: 741	What HAWG said. Sure, clover leaf groups are cool. One big ragged hole is great. I shoot at 4X4 inch air gun targets at 30-50 feet, six holes in that, I'm happy. With the 1858, they are mostly in the 7-10 ring. That works for me. But, as with airguns, it is a whole lotta fun to pitch a can an unknown distance, and drop the hammer on it. Hitting em makes for a fun shooting experience. __________________ NRA Patron Member SAF Life Member GOAL Member

July 8, 2012, 09:11 AM	#14
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Mykeal A helicopter is just about a hundred thousand individual parts flying in formation. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

July 8, 2012, 09:20 AM	#15
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Some thoughts I have never been to a CAS event and don’t know how they are scored. Hawg’s statement about powder puff loads I assume addresses the CAS loads. Hawg, correct me if I am wrong about that. Those shooters who report best accuracy in powder puff loads may be defining accuracy in a way that is different from ZVP. They may be referring to hitting roughly center of mass consistently on a non-stationary target. (Again…I do not know how CAS events are scored). Anyway, it appears that ZVP is referring to basic accuracy of the pistol and shooter system. Z, correct me if I am wrong about that. Let me ask some questions about that system. I have often wondered how much the revolver moves after the instant that the power in the chamber begins to ignite, but before the projectile leaves the muzzle. High speed camera videos might be helpful here (but I have not looked for them. I know there are some very good videos on the internet but most have more to do with the projectile hitting the target.) I think it is logical to believe that (all other things being equal) a heavier pistol will move less than a lighter one. I think those of us who shoot Dragoon’s or Walker’s have noted that the revolver seems to be very stabile in comparison to a .44 in 1851 pattern. I would be happy to have your observations on that. As regards velocity versus accuracy, it seems as though, the more time it takes for the projectile to travel from the muzzle to the target, the more time that the external forces will have to act on the projectile. Any force acting upon the projectile after it leaves the muzzle and not perfectly aligned with the direction of travel from the muzzle to the target (In a vector impacting windage or elevation) would seem to fall into the category of forces I am referring to. Gravity is a good example. I think we would all agree that if we fire a given revolver at a target that is seven yards distant, we get a smaller group than when firing that same revolver with the same load at a target that is fifteen yards away. Two things going on here. 1. A target that is further away is likely harder to aim at than a target that is closer. (That has nothing to do with Z's post). 2. A bullet traveling twice as far will take almost twice as long to get to the target. Does any of this make sense? __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

July 8, 2012, 01:43 PM	#19
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Okay Hawg.... ....Got it. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

July 8, 2012, 05:05 PM	#20
North East Redneck Senior Member Join Date: June 6, 2012 Location: Berkshire Hills Posts: 741	Hawg, I shoot my 1858 with 23gr of 777, still using up 100's of .451 balls, no wads and #11 CCI. I get results I'm happy with. What is your opinion on this load? What should I experiment with to improve accuracy? As stated above, I enjoy shooting cans, plastic bottles or whatever. Do quite well, most of the time that is. You really know your stuff from what I've read on here. Any input on other loads? I've messed around with loads, stopped when accuracy was good enough. But hey, I'm always trying to learn and get better. __________________ NRA Patron Member SAF Life Member GOAL Member

July 7, 2012, 01:10 PM	#1
ZVP Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 2009 Posts: 1,102	Velocity & Accuracy? Why is it that when I approach the 1000fps mark with revolvers in either .36 or .44 cal, Accuracy increases and Groups shrink? I have noted this at 7 and 15 yard targets. I have noted that 600fps loads aren't quite as accurate. Do low velocity balls tend to wander due to an unstable spin? ZVP

July 7, 2012, 02:14 PM	#2
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	That's pretty much been my experience also but most folks swear up and down the powder puff loads are most accurate.

July 7, 2012, 05:06 PM	#3
kwhi43 Senior Member Join Date: August 21, 2008 Location: Kansas City Posts: 1,393	I happen to know the loads the top shooters shoot at Friendship and they Are not the 1000 fps ones. They are not the powder puff 600 fps either.

July 7, 2012, 06:02 PM	#4
ZVP Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 2009 Posts: 1,102	Maybe 800fps then? LOL! Please expand that clue you teased us with, OK? Seriously, using Pyrodex, the closer I am to 1000 fps the better! I am too poor of an offhand shot to gauge 25 yard groups but if I had some sort of mehicanical rest to lock it into, I bet I'd find the same results! Untill I get better "Puff" load groups I think I'll stick with the fast ones. ZVP

July 7, 2012, 07:16 PM	#5
mykeal Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2006 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,772	My experience: 'Slow', low power loads are difficult to shoot accurately with any consistency, although sometimes I can do fairly well. 'Fast', high power loads are generally more consistent in terms of accuracy, although when you get to full chamber loads accuracy goes out the window pretty quickly. If I don't want to play games with loads and I'm looking for the most accurate one that I can pretty much count on (like shooting a match) it's been my experience that 'moderate' loads are unilaterally the best. All of the above does not, however, lead to any given muzzle velocity as 'the best'. A moderate, or better yet, optimum, load in a Walker is not the same as one in an 1860 Army or 1858 Remington.

July 7, 2012, 07:18 PM	#6
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	I don't shoot for groups and despise punching paper period. I'm deadly on Coke cans at 25 yards tho and that's good enough for me.

July 7, 2012, 08:39 PM	#8
kwhi43 Senior Member Join Date: August 21, 2008 Location: Kansas City Posts: 1,393	And I despise shooting at Cans!

July 7, 2012, 08:49 PM	#9
duelist1954 Senior Member Join Date: March 14, 2011 Location: Central Pennsylvania Posts: 567	I love shooting cans.

July 7, 2012, 09:14 PM	#10
Beagle333 Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2012 Location: Auburn, AL. Posts: 2,332	My 1860's like to shoot faster, especially the Colt. I'd have trouble hitting milk jugs if I shot that one slow. Now the Walker..... it's happy with anything. It'll shoot as steady as I can hold it, using any load. ('Bout equal between shooting cans/paper for me)

July 8, 2012, 08:58 AM	#13
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	Wellllll, I never actually shot one down.

July 8, 2012, 09:53 AM	#16
Shotgun693 Senior Member Join Date: September 3, 2011 Location: Poteet, Texas Posts: 959	I do shoot CAS, shot yesterday. Anyway, you just need to hit a 10"X10" square at 20' or less to play the game and shoot well. In my experience a warm load tends to shoot better in a non-magnum handgun. By this I'm talking about 900 fps. My CAS load, carry load, hunting load is a 200 gr RNFP lead bullet at 920 fps. Seems real accurate in my SAA and shoots close to point of aim.

July 8, 2012, 10:57 AM	#17
B.L.E. Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2008 Location: Somewhere on the Southern shore of Lake Travis, TX Posts: 2,603	In CAS, the number of seconds needed to shoot the stage is your score with 5 seconds added for each miss. Low score is the winner. A lot simpler than IPSC.

July 8, 2012, 01:07 PM	#18
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	No Doc. I was referring to the ones that shoot 15-20 grains of powder out of .44's and rave about the accuracy. That lil dab of powder ain't worth wasting a cap on.

July 8, 2012, 06:55 PM	#22
North East Redneck Senior Member Join Date: June 6, 2012 Location: Berkshire Hills Posts: 741	Thanks for the reply. Coke can @ 25 is very nice. And I'm happy enough with it. All that is available here is 777, 209 and very rarely pyrodex. __________________ NRA Patron Member SAF Life Member GOAL Member

July 8, 2012, 07:24 PM	#23
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	I use Pyrodex. I can get 777 but it's almost twice as much as Pyro. 209 can't be used with percussion caps and is over three times the price of Pyro.

July 8, 2012, 08:45 PM	#24
North East Redneck Senior Member Join Date: June 6, 2012 Location: Berkshire Hills Posts: 741	Hawg- What are you paying for Pyrodex? Last three pounds of 777 FFFG I bought were $27 each. The Blackhorn was about $35 a pound. Nice for the inline rifle and shotgun, don't have much experience with it, but seems quite good so far. I load light. Wish I could find some GOEX or similar around here. The big stores are getting $35 for 777. Seems to be all they stock. Life in Mass, rules, regs and restrictions everywhere you look __________________ NRA Patron Member SAF Life Member GOAL Member

July 8, 2012, 10:23 PM	#25
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	The last Pyro I bought was 19.00. 777 was 35.00 and 209 was 35.00 for 10 oz.