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July 21, 2012, 01:12 PM | #26 | |
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The again I know a lot of "Range Hero's" |
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July 21, 2012, 01:56 PM | #27 | |
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A gun is not always the answer, it is a tool and should be a part of your strategy, but not your only strategy. You must be thinking of PPC, or 30 year old training as well as what Hollywood portrays. As Kraig pointed out, IDPA is not like that at all.
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Retired Law Enforcement U. S. Army Veteran Armorer My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon. Last edited by Nanuk; July 21, 2012 at 02:11 PM. |
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July 21, 2012, 02:43 PM | #28 | ||
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John 20:29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” Last edited by iamdb; July 21, 2012 at 03:03 PM. |
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July 21, 2012, 05:54 PM | #29 |
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I am just going to wait until technology catches up and we can run any scenarios/situation for training in a "virtual reality" (insert total recall?). Anywho, yes it is hard to predict what will happen in any firefight due to the endless possibilites, but competion would certainly do more good than harm.
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July 21, 2012, 07:42 PM | #30 | |
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(Luke 11:21 KJV) When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: (Luke 22:36 KJV) Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. |
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July 21, 2012, 09:59 PM | #31 |
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One thing about competition, having shot today - if you don't have some active shooting experience as compared to the square range - it may temper statement how in an emergency you wll , blah, blah.
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July 22, 2012, 08:40 AM | #32 |
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I have a cousin who is a world class target shooter and I would not take him into combat with me. Being a good shooter does not mean you will be good in combat and being a Navy SEAL does not make you a world class target shooter. Many of the skills used are transferable sure, others will get ya killed. They are different animals.
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July 22, 2012, 11:13 AM | #33 |
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I remember reading somewhere (perhaps a link somewhere on this forum ?) about a project where experienced combat folks from Iraq and Afghanistan were asked to try out a 3-gun course. I seem to remember these were SEALs or USA Special Forces, or similar high speed low drag folks. Does anyone besides me remember this?
As I recall, these professionals did not run through the course in the same way that most competitors do... They were a bit slower, fired fewer shots, and were A LOT MORE CAREFUL about concealment and cover. I wish I could find the link... Anyone remember this? |
July 22, 2012, 11:33 AM | #34 |
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Depending on what state you live in and your district attorney's personality, it can make it harder to defend yourself if you're ever in court for a shooting-related incident. Some prosecutors would have a field day terrifying a jury with stories about how you like to "dress up an play Rambo" in your weekend IPSC hobby.
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July 22, 2012, 12:54 PM | #35 | |
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I was sitting in a restaurant some time back, and a fellow who'd been sitting at a table next to mine got up to leave and I spotted his gun in the open for all to see. No one else did, that I could tell (IWB, black shirt, black gun) and he simply took his coat off the back of the chair, put it on and went up to the register to pay--then left. He violated no law by his temporary open carry, and I didn't either, by removing my coat while seated and letting it drape over my gun and mag pouch. Guess you would have jumped up and brushed back back your coat with diners stitting all around you, since being "quick to go to the gun" has served you so well. Sorry, didn't mean to get off topic. I have no doubt that the pressure of competition is a good thing, even if some of the tactics associated with certain phases of the event may be improper, or not practical in a real life situation. Last edited by Nnobby45; July 22, 2012 at 01:09 PM. |
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July 22, 2012, 04:05 PM | #36 | |
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July 22, 2012, 04:46 PM | #37 |
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In Marin County, or San Francisco County California I doubt a jury could be put together that would think there is such a thing as a 'Good shoot'. The emotional makeup of the jurors is far more important than any complicated facts.
How do you define, 'A Good Shoot' ?
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Hook686 When the number of people in institutions reaches 51%, we change sides. Last edited by Hook686; July 22, 2012 at 04:51 PM. |
July 22, 2012, 05:16 PM | #38 | ||
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If you're unlucky enough to be in front of a jury, it helps to understand that juries can be influenced by many things. Harold Fish's jury was influenced by his use of hollow points. And this article by our own Glenn Meyer discusses studies showing the a jury could be influenced by the type of gun used. But while some things that could have a negative influence on a jury also, like using JHP ammunition and being well trained, can increase the likelihood of a good outcome on the street. Other things, like Punisher grips on your pistol, won't help on the street and could be dicey in court. The prudent and wise person understands the difference and plans accordingly. Personally I don't worry about things like training that could help me on the street. I'm prepared to deal with the issue. Nor do I worry about things that can't help on the street, because I just avoid them.
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July 22, 2012, 05:58 PM | #39 | |
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First you rule out the three S's, stupid people, doing stupid things in stupid places. A genuine self defense situation is fairly easy to discern from a made up SD situation. The story(s) don't match, the evidence does not match etc. Frequently, you are not the first victim of said bad guy. You, of course cannot totally rule out the ambitious political career of a prosecutor. Of course I have lived in conservative middle America and will continue to so. The value system is a little different here VS the left and right coasts, that also plays a role in the perception of anything you do.
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July 22, 2012, 06:54 PM | #40 | |||
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This couple, arrested in early April and finally exonerated under Missouri's Castle Doctrine in early June. And no doubt after incurring expenses for bail and a lawyer, as well as a couple of month's anxiety, before being cleared. Larry Hickey, in gun friendly Arizona: He was arrested, spent 71 days in jail, went through two different trials ending in hung juries, was forced to move from his house, etc., before the DA decided it was a good shoot and dismissed the charges. Mark Abshire in Oklahoma: Despite defending himself against multiple attackers on his own lawn in a fairly gun-friendly state with a "Stand Your Ground" law, he was arrested, went to jail, charged, lost his job and his house, and spent two and a half years in the legal meat-grinder before finally being acquitted. Harold Fish, also in gun friendly Arizona: He was still convicted and sent to prison. He won his appeal, his conviction was overturned, and a new trial was ordered. The DA chose to dismiss the charges rather than retry Mr. Fish. Gerald Ung: He was attacked by several men, and the attack was captured on video. He was nonetheless charged and brought to trial. He was ultimately acquitted. Some good folks in clear jeopardy and with no way to preserve their lives except by the use of lethal force against other humans. Yet that happened under circumstances in which their justification for the use of lethal force was not immediately clear. While each was finally exonerated, it came at great emotional and financial cost. And perhaps there but for the grace of God will go one of us. And note also that two of those cases arose in States with a Castle Doctrine/Stand Your Ground law in effect at the time. Quote:
The prosecutor, just as any good lawyer, will use whatever is useful, within the rules, to further the interests of his client. In the case of a prosecutor, his client is the state, and his client wants a conviction. And a prosecutor, particularly a politically ambitious one, generally won't be pursuing a case unless he thinks he can reasonably expect a conviction. Losing cases doesn't help one's career. Quote:
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July 22, 2012, 08:20 PM | #41 |
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Thats all well and good Frank, 3 of the 5 cases you linked all did something that provoked the attacks in one way or another and I would have issues with them too. 1 case was an X boyfriend attacking, a relationship exists, so does initial suspicion requiring further investigation. Fish was railroaded, no doubt.
Yelling at drunks, arguing and fighting with neighbors, playing bumper cars on the road. That goes back to the 3 S's. There are a great many self defense shootings that no charges are ever filed, one such example is the recent case in Florida and the robbery attempt.
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July 22, 2012, 08:42 PM | #42 | |
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So the glib business of "a good shoot is a good shoot" or "in this State it's not a problem" or "it's all the work of a conniving prosecutor" is drivel. Our society takes a dim view of one person intentionally hurting or killing another. The law recognizes that doing so may, under certain circumstances, be justified. But unless and until your act of extreme violence against another human being is considered legally justified, you're going to be in for a nasty time of it. How well prepared are you for the legal aftermath of your use of lethal force to save your life or the life of a loved one?
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"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper |
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July 22, 2012, 08:47 PM | #43 |
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Retired Law Enforcement U. S. Army Veteran Armorer My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon. Last edited by Nanuk; July 22, 2012 at 08:56 PM. |
July 22, 2012, 09:01 PM | #44 | |
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Also, I note that the insurance provides up to $50,000 towards the cost of defense of a criminal charge. However, depending on the complexity of the case, the legal bill for the defense, through a jury trial, of a serious criminal charge can exceed $100,000.
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"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper |
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July 22, 2012, 09:09 PM | #45 |
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...to say nothing of a subsequent Civil case, where a conviction only requires a preponderance of evidence.
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July 22, 2012, 10:57 PM | #46 |
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This is something that anyone can test on their own. Compare how good they are before they start competing and after. Use any benchmark you like as long as it is measurable.
If someone has never shot in competition before the change should be evident. Oh and as I said before if you want to simulate stress stand in a bucket while you shoot and have a friend toss snakes in it. |
July 23, 2012, 02:28 AM | #47 |
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With regard to competition creating potential legal problems:
According to Massad Ayoob and Marty Hayes, they would much rather defend a trained person than an untrained person. It's easier to justify and explain to the jury why the defendant reasonably believed what he did, if they can show that the defendant is aware of such things as: 1) body language and other warning signs of imminent attack; 2) advantages of hollow points, that include less likelihood of ricochets and overpenetration (protecting society) and greater likelihood of stopping the assailant with fewer rounds (protecting the assailant; we had MDs and RNs in the class confirm that it's easier to save a gunshot victim if he has fewer, rather than more, holes in him); 3) disparity of force; 4) knowledge of what the local police carry, and why (another example they gave was a former marine who had a 1911 and 2 spare mags; when asked why, the answer was that he had always been trained to carry that - the jury found that answer reasonable). etc. Also, they felt that competition could be a positive factor in a trial: the defendant is honing his skills so that, in a crisis, he is less likely to cause harm to bystanders. So, could training and/or competition be used against you? Yes. But it could also be used for you. If you ever get involved in an SD event, find a competent SD attorney (one who has experience in defending people who really aren't guilty, as opposed to one who normally deals with society's dregs - the legal tactics used are not the same), and pay the money for good expert witnesses. |
July 23, 2012, 06:46 AM | #48 | |
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July 23, 2012, 09:14 AM | #49 |
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Competition and training have been brought up in trial. However, IIRC, the defendants have had remarkably crappy lawyers. Marty and Mas make the point that training, esp. experiences that teach restraint, can be used to your benefit by an attorney. They can construct a positive theme for you.
I will opine (worth what you paid for it), that training that has too much blood lust chortling (Always cheat, always win; Be prepared to kill everyone in the place), might be presented as a negative. We have seen that. Responsible training would be positive. All my experiences emphasize rational analysis and restraint. Avoidance, escape, etc.
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July 23, 2012, 11:01 PM | #50 |
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"I remember reading somewhere (perhaps a link somewhere on this forum ?) about a project where experienced combat folks from Iraq and Afghanistan were asked to try out a 3-gun course. I seem to remember these were SEALs or USA Special Forces, or similar high speed low drag folks. Does anyone besides me remember this?
As I recall, these professionals did not run through the course in the same way that most competitors do... They were a bit slower, fired fewer shots, and were A LOT MORE CAREFUL about concealment and cover. I wish I could find the link... Anyone remember this" As far as how successfully the experienced combat folks completed the course of fire, it would depend on what they were trying to do. It should be painfully obvious that if they were going to run through the stage as if it were a real combat situation to demonstrate how they would do that over in Iraq, they wouldn't shoot it the same way as 3 gun shooters in a competition. Would anyone actually be surprised by that? On the other hand, if they were asked to run through the stage, after explaining the scoring system, and for them to try and score their best on the stage, I would imagine that they could do pretty well treating the stage as a mere competition and not a combat situation. Mark. |
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