Bullet Casting Help

[Mosin-Marauder]

Hello all,
As some of you know I reload for my K-31 and am going to for my new pistol when I get it. I want to start casting .45 caliber bullets for a 1911. I'd like to get into it as cheap as I can, as I don't want to spend $400 for a melting pot. I'd like to ask for some supplies for my birthday and buy the rest myself. I've read through the Casting Bullets 101 and am going to read it again. It seems like a stupid request, but could someone give me a list of the stuff I need? Like I said I'd like for it to be as cheap as possible. I already have a manual and I'm going to get one for casting. Thank you for your help and if anyone has any further tips for reloading. I would appreciate it. Sorry for posting this.

[oldpapps]

"as cheap as possible"

OK, we can do that....

Start with a 'lead ladle', this is to me a must.
Your selected bullet mold/s. LEE's are cheap, maybe from a 'swap-n-shop' or yard sale.
Know anyone that is a good welder? Make a 'pot' from 6 squares or rectangles of iron as long as they fit together. That's your pot made from scrap iron.
Got a charcoal grill? That's your heat source. I've done it in a fire pit in the ground.

It may take a little time to get you scrap lead up to temperature but it does work.

Next is not a total requirement but is close. LEE push threw sizing DIE, in the proper size for your weapon/s.

Lube, I've rubbed on more lube with my hands than I want to remember. Think 'powder coating', use most any lead, hard or ultra soft. A cheap/used toaster oven and role of 'Non-stick aluminum foil' and a bottle of harbor Freight 'Red' and your good for lots of shots and no rubbing lube into grease groves.

That's about as cheap as I can go.

It is slow and looks like #e!! but it does work. I've done it.

Load with care,

OSOK

[Mosin-Marauder]

How would I use this "bullet sizing die"? Same as a on the press?

How much are the little Basic Lee Melting Pot? I can actually weld a fair bit but if jt'it's under $200 I think I just might buy it.

Also, I've heard about pan lubing. Would that work as well as rubbing it on?

So as far as a list, is this correct?

Lead Ladle w/ wooden handle
LEE Melting Pot.
LEE .45 caliber 2 cavity mold
Spoon for removing imperfections.
LEE Casting Manual
LEE push threw sizing die for .45 caliber (I still don't completely understand this, help would be appreciated)

So is that about it?

[zxcvbob]

You don't really want "as cheap as possible", you just think you do. Not for casting pistol bullets anyway, where you'll want to cast a couple of hundred at a time.

Get a Lee 20 lb bottom pour pot, and a couple of Lee 2-cavity molds. That's about all you need for casting, and not much more expensive than "cheap as possible." (eventually you'll kick yourself for not getting the 6-cavity molds)

You'll also want something to melt scrap lead in; a stainless steel saucepan from the Salvation Army thrift store works well. And a hotplate or Coleman stove. Do not melt scrap in your good casting pot because you'll clog the spout.

[oldpapps]

"How would I use this "bullet sizing die"? Same as a on the press?"

The LEE push threw sizing DIE is about as simple as a tool can get. The DIE screws into your press. A ram slips in to the presses ram. Set a bullet on the top of the LEE ram at the mouth of the DIE and cycle the presses arm to 'push' the bullet up and into the sizing DIE. Continue with this process and one goes in and one is pushed out the top. The size of the inside of the DIE is the size the finished bullet will be.

That's about it.

Load with care,

OSOK

[Beagle333]

Where to buy

If it was me, I'd get the magnum melter and ladle pour. But then, I like ladle pouring. Most folks like the bottom pour, but they are a headache and an art all their own to keep one flowing. I don't know if you want to start off with the frustration or not. The good thing is that any melter holds its resale value really well, so it isn't going to be a lot of lost money when you get good and decide to upgrade and sell the old pot. I don't think you'd be happy with a 10# pot when pouring the .45 slugs. It's going to go very fast.
You might want a 6 cav mold and a bottom pour later when you get good at it and want mass production, but for simplicity and learning, I do recommend a ladle, a 20# pot and a 2 cav mold.

'Not to say you can't start out by jumping right into the fire, I started out with a brass 4 cav HP mold by NOE as my first mold, but I wouldn't do it that way again.

Good luck, ask questions, and happy casting!

[nemesiss45]

personally, I'm ladling out of an old saeco pot that I had gifted to me. I'm in no hurry to spend more money for a fancy pot. I do 200+ bullets in a sitting. I don't know how easy bottom pours are to use, but I love the control of a ladle. also, I don't have to worry about crudding up the spout, or leaky spouts.
if you start with a simple hot pot and get a bottom pour later, you can always use the old pot for alloying dirty lead and only use the bottom pour for clean ingots.

[FrankenMauser]

Ladle (I prefer the Lyman and RCBS ladles, but there are many options.)
Pot
Mold (Lee molds are cheap to buy. ...But also cheaply built. Get started with a NEW 2-cavity, and then upgrade down the road. Getting started with a mold that may have remnants of someone else's headaches [or misuse/abuse] is not recommended.)
Lube
Alloy
Lee sizing die
Welding gloves
Eye protection (personal preference - face shield or just safety glasses)


If any kind of scrap will be used as the source of your alloy, you'll want a separate pot for smelting that, to keep the trash out of your production pot (not a necessity, but very nice to have). I use a small dutch oven (8") on a turkey fryer burner. I also use a different ladle for that pot, just to keep contaminants away from the production pot. And, of course, you'll need some kind of ingot mold and flux, if smelting scrap for your alloy.


By using things I already had on hand, checking some thrift shops, and buying only bare necessities, I got started for under $50. But, I already had the alloy, dutch oven, turkey fryer burner (and propane), bullet sizing dies, gas checks, and more. Essentially, all I needed to buy was a ladle, welding gloves, lube, lube pans, and a bullet mold (my first one was a Lee, on sale, for $12).


Just one note, on a matter of opinion....
Don't let anyone talk you into buying a Rowell ladle for bullet casting. They're great for pouring ingots, but too big, too heavy, and too annoying for casting bullets that weigh less than 3,500 grains. If the "bottom pour" style interests you, there are other ladles that work better with bullet molds (such as Lyman and RCBS, for starters).

[kilimanjaro]

Lots of good advice here.

If there is one thing I have learned in life, is that 'cheap' is not the way to approach a hobby or avocation that you will probably enjoy for your entire life.

Shooting, collecting, hunting, reloading, etc., are not inexpensive hobbies. You will to devote serious sums of money over decades if you spend any time with it beyond two rounds sighting in Granddad's deer rifle each fall. This is true regardless of whether you enjoy $2000 Weatherby rifles or $100 Mosin-Nagants.

If you spend the money now on quality tools, you will use them for the rest of your life. Ask anyone who works on cars how many sets of Craftsman sockets they have had to buy, and how many sets of Chinese pot metal sockets. If you buy cheap quality now, you will have to buy it again, and again, and maybe even again, paying three or four times what you should have paid. If you think you don't have the money to spend on your hobbies now, being a teenager, wait until you are making a house payment, putting groceries on the table, worried about your kid's college and your own retirement, and what happened to the price of heating the house this winter. Quality now means freedom later.

You were looking for some way to make some money. May I suggest you get some good bullet moulds in not only the calibers you want to shoot, but some other calibers that are desired by handloaders, such as .455 Webley or .450 Martini-Henry, .303 British, etc., that are not generally available due to market size, and cast them up. Make a good quality bullet, without cheaping out on the materials, and sell them at a good price.

The learning curve is not steep, and you get to melt your mistakes and start over.

[Mike / Tx]

Great info here already posted by the others. Gotta watch that Beagle fella though, he likes to make "pretty" bullets.. Seriously all of them have great advice and they can all pour up a great bullet. If I didn't kid ol Beagle he might think I was mad at him.

Me, well I got into this WAY later than I should have. I have been shooting since I was a snot nosed kid, and just seemed every time I messed with cast bullets I ended up with a mess on my hands. Sort of soured my taste for them I guess. Well up until a few years back that is.

I started off pouring hot lead into 4,6, and 8oz surf fishing weights and progressed into the 1-2lb ones shortly thereafter, to hold my bigger baits solid in the surf while shark fishing. For al lof this I quickly picked up one of the Lee 4-20 pots which served me well on the lighter weights, but for the bigger ones I had to modify it. I used some 1/4" SS tubing to replace the upright rods and a piece of 2x2 square tubing to raise up the back end. Been that way ever since and works great. The biggest thing about a Lee bottom pour is putting and keeping clean alloy in it. If you get trash in there it WILL plug up the spout, but it only takes a finishing nail and pair of pliers to get her back up and running, least until you get through whats in the pot and can clean it up good.

As for the molds, I started off using the Lee 6 cavity right from the start. I was only going to pour for my 454 and since I liked to shoot it so much it only seemed logical to pour as many up in as short a time as I could. It only takes about 20 minutes to empty the pot with those 300gr chunks. The biggest issue most have with the 6 cavity molds is trying to pour all 6 cavities at once then cut them off before the mold has really heated up. They aren't harder to use than the others IF you get them up to temp before you really start pouring hard. Usually if you simply take your time and pour the first two cavities pretty fast the end will heat up. Then once your having to wait on the sprue to cool on those add another one, and repeat. Soon enough your pouring all six and rolling right along.

Personally I would suggest you get the Lee pot if for no other reason it is easy to control your pour height, not that you can do so with a ladle. I would also throw in that a thermometer should be your next tool so you can keep your alloy as consistent as possible on the temp. The hotter it gets the hotter your molds will get, and the smaller and lighter your bullets will be.

On cleaning your alloy, never put it in your pour pot. Always smelt it down in a separate pot where you can flux it and clean it up before putting it into your ingot molds or using it to pour bullets. The best thing for fluxing is sawdust, usually pine or oak. Either one will give you a lot of carbon which when stirred into the alloy will blend the things which need blending, and render out the stuff that need rendering. This will all come to the top as you stir. Also while doing this it is important to keep the temp in the 675-700'ish degree range to try and keep any unwanted zinc from becoming a part of and possibly ruining your new batch of alloy.

For additional information on what to do, and how to do it, get over to Castboolits and read up in the stickies. That should take you most of a couple of months in of itself. Then in between there and your head spinning from information overload, head over to www.lasc.us and read through and download the articles and such from there which will guide you through to great bullet making from start to finish.

As with anything else the old saying, you get what you pay for, definitely comes into play when your buying molds. That isn't to say Lee doesn't put out a decent mold for the money, far from it. But once you have your feet under you, you should look into investing in one of the customs, from Accurate, NOE, MP, NEI or similar. Also Lyman, RCBS, Seaco, and others put out some great molds, but, and this is only my opinion, the first list there is where I will be spending my money on any new molds. I have some of all the others I purchased used simply to try out. Some worked some didn't. But just getting into things you simply cannot beat the Lee prices and learn with those then move on up. Sort of like learning to drive in a Vette verses an ol beater. It can be done, but once you've learned all the basics and "to do's" and "not to do's" in the beater, now how much more do you appreciate that new Vette when you slip in behind the wheel?

Hope that helps.

[FrankenMauser]

Just a note....

I may have gotten started for under $50 in casting-specific equipment/items. But, just in the last 3 years, I've spent probably $1,200 on more 'stuff' (molds, ladles, dies, hot plates, ...and powder coating tools). ....And I still don't even own a luber-sizer.

[snuffy]

I wrote this last year, copied it to Mickey soft word, to answer this type of question. The prices are a bit light because of price increases, but you can see how for a little under $125.00 you can get set-up for two 45 boolits.

I would NOT try to cheap out more than this I consider this to be an entry level kit.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tNumber=645810 $64.99

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tNumber=789762 $19.49

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tNumber=776747 $19.49

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tNumber=116429 $17.29


This is the basic cost for a set-up that would get you ready to cast for a 45 auto. melt the lead, pour the bullet, lube it by tumbling, then run it through the sizer. Ready to load. And YES you can use the tumble lube for conventional lube groove bullets!

The Lee Pro 4 20 Lb Furnace is the best one they make, it has the ability to function as a bottom pour, and enough room to allow you to use a ladle if you want to try that method.

You didn't say which caliber, BUT the above prices would be the same no matter which handgun caliber(S) you may have. The same would go for rifle, the 2 cav lee molds all cost about the same money. Occasionally midway has a sale that will save a couple bucks off a mold, or other stuff.

I would certainly suggest you start with a simple handgun bullet without a gas check. Rifle bullets are a step up in skill level requirements, and paper patching is another higher skill level.

[Mosin-Marauder]

Could I smelt my lead in a regular Lee Pot (not bottom pour) and then add the allot any make ingots from a muffin pan? Then Smelt the ingots in the same pot to make bullets? If it's a matter of just cleaning, I have no problem with that. Just wondering. Also, what is Fluxing? Would regular Paraffin wax work? Or no?

[nemesiss45]

That's what I do. after I pour ingots from dirty lead, I empty the pot and wire brush out all the crud before I use it for bullets.

fluxxing helps make the alloy homogeneous and allows the impurities to separate so you can scrape them out. I flux with straight parafin, but there are lots of things you can use. if you do any woodworking, you can use sawdust and save a couple bucks.

I suggest you pick up the lyman cast bullet handbook. lots of good detailed info in there

[oldpapps]

Mr Marauder,

I am pleased that you are not going with ultra cheap. I think you will be better off in the long run.

To your last questions [in red]:
Could I smelt my lead in a regular Lee Pot (not bottom pour) and then add the allot any make ingots from a muffin pan? Then Smelt the ingots in the same pot to make bullets?
Yes, your first/cleaning melt may be in any vessel, to use that same vessel for your pours, it is advised that it be cleaned out first. What ever you make ingots in must be hard.. aluminum is not advised.
If it's a matter of just cleaning, I have no problem with that. Just wondering. Also, what is Fluxing?
'Fluxing' is the adding of impurities to the mix that promotes the mixing of the desired metals and separates the undesirable materials.
Would regular Paraffin wax work? Or no?
Yes, any wax will work. I use my granddaughters old broken stubs of crayons. Just drop 'it' in and mix the mixture about and scoop out the crud.
So far I have not seen it listed in this thread, but, lead is nasty stuff. It should not be ingested in any way. Don't chew on it or breath it. That may sound stupid but heating lead to a fluid state releases lots of gasses and breathing them may introduce lead into your system. Eating, drinking or smoking (nasty in it's own) are not things to be doing. And please do it out side or with extreme air flow. I cast under my car port. Rain is nice but not around liquid lead. One drop of rain or sweat and that water explodes into stream, liquid lead fly and burns skin.

Cast with care and enjoy,

OSOK

[jmorris]

If you have "stuff" and time you can go pretty cheap. I made my own melting pot out of 3/8" thick steel pipe and a 3500 watt oven element that cost under $10 at sears. It holds over 60lbs of lead.

I shortly turned it into a casting machine that the single most expensive part I had to buy was the $60 mold.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...ighlight=magma

[Mosin-Marauder]

Now, one more set of questions. Where would I get lead and alloy? When I smelt the lead, I add the alloy, then flux with paraffin wax to remove impurities, then put it into like a steel muffin pan to make ingots? Then I clean out the pot, add the ingots, then once they have melted mold the bullets, then hit the sprue plate with a wooden stick or something, open the mold, and drop the bullets into like, a little pan with a towel and water in it so the bullets don't get dinged up and they dry faster and harden faster? And one more thing, casting in my carport couldn't add impurities to the lead, could it? Sorry for asking so many questions, I plan to ask a few more before this thread is over, haha. Thanks again for taking the time to help me.

[snuffy]

Now, one more set of questions. Where would I get lead and alloy?
Scrap lead is everywhere nowadays, or nowhere in some places. First I have to correct you, there's no "lead and alloy". Most lead is an alloy unless it's pure lead. You would have to go to a lead smelter to get pure lead, anything else would be mixed with other metals to make it an alloy. Most common is lead, tin, and antimony, in hundreds of different proportions to produce the needed hardness/strength for it's purpose. Then there's solder, the older types are listed as 50-50 (lead-tin), 60-40 and so on. Todays solder is called lead free, is usually 95% tin 5% antimony for use on copper water pipes.
When I smelt the lead, I add the alloy, then flux with paraffin wax to remove impurities, then put it into like a steel muffin pan to make ingots? Then I clean out the pot, add the ingots, then once they have melted mold the bullets, then hit the sprue plate with a wooden stick or something, open the mold, and drop the bullets into like, a little pan with a towel and water in it so the bullets don't get dinged up and they dry faster and harden faster?
Whoa, slow down! 1. Melting scrap lead is sometimes called smelting, a misuse of the word. Smelting is making a metal ,(lead) from ore. Melting the scrap lead, fluxing, then casting ingots can be done in your electric furnace, then clean it out to re-melt for casting boolits. Here's a tip, just about everything floats on molten lead. So the impurities, crud will be on the surface to be skimmed off AFTER you've fluxed the molten lead. 2. There's two main methods or what-to-do-once-the-boolit-is-cast. You can simply drop them on an old cotton towel to air cool, or drop them into water, which is called water dropped or cold water quenching. Water dropped boolits will be harder than air cooled. If you want them really hard, then have some ice floating on the water. 3. Beating on a mold with a stick will make it fail way too early in it's useful life. Get a pair of welders gloves, use the glove to turn the sprue plate to cut the sprue. No, you won't get burned, AND you won't be burned when you inadvertently touch the furnace, mold, or ladle. 4.Boolits harden as soon as the sprue is ready to be cut, they're pretty hard right away. You can damage them by dropping just cast on top of older ones, so keeping an unobstructed landing zone is all you need. And one more thing, casting in my carport couldn't add impurities to the lead, could it?NO. Sorry for asking so many questions, I plan to ask a few more before this thread is over, haha. Thanks again for taking the time to help me. There's no such thing as a dumb question ask away!

Too short huh?

[mehavey]

SMELTING:

- Welders/leather gloves. Don't skimp (they aren't that expensive anyway)
- Glasses (again, don't even think about melting/casting w/o eye protection.)
- Use an inexpensive 2-quart steel pot/saucepan bought at WalMart (or the like).
- Immediately cut the handle off. Don't even consider using it -- ever.
- Melt the lead outside over a standard Coleman campstove. It will take about 20 minutes to start/20 more to complete.
- Flux (parafin/wax/crisco/etc) as req'd to get things cleaned up. Use a steel tablespoon to stir/discard the stuff that float up.
- Use two Visegrips at 8 & 4 o'clock to pick up the pot and pour into 1-lb mold shapes.
- Get/use the Lyman ingot mold (cheap) for most convenient later feeding of the lead furnace. (Standard muffin size too large -- maybe half-filled OK)

[Mosin-Marauder]

After I cast the bullets, I get them one int he ram of the Press and push thru size them, them they're ready to be put into casings? Or do I have to lube them? I've heard about pan lubing, what would I need/how would I do that, again? Or would the push thru sizing die lube them for me? Is there like a special press or bullet holder I need for the push thru sizing die? Thanks again for all your help guys.

I actually own a pair of welder's gloves and a welder's mask I can get from my Papaw's Machine Shop.

[mehavey]

- (Lee) push-through dies work on regular reloading press/finish the job fine
- Slather/lube the bullet by hand before pushing through. The die will clean it up.

[Mosin-Marauder]

Okay, got it. Going to save up my work/ birthday money and get everything I need.

[mehavey]

If someone hasn't mentioned casting thermometer, get one.
Keeping a near-constant temp (700-750) is the secret.

[Beagle333]

Very true about the thermometer. It will save a LOT of frustration.

[FrankenMauser]

I saw water dropping mentioned.
So, I figured the obligatory warning was in order:

Water is your enemy around a casting pot. If a drop of water falls into your molten alloy, or a wet bullet is tossed into the alloy, the water with flash to steam explosively and spray molten lead all over the place. That molten, flying lead will burn any exposed skin, and stick to it. It will burn your eyes, and stick to them. It will do very bad things to any body part it hits. **

Many casters refer to such events as a "visit from the tinsel fairy" because once it happens, everything is covered in strings, globs, and spatters of lead that make it look like a fairy threw tinsel and glitter all over.

To avoid visits from the tinsel fairy, you must always make sure you're using DRY ingots; not sweating on your tools, bullets, or pot; and make sure that any water-dropping apparatus is assembled or built in such a way as to be below the level of the melting pot, be incapable of splashing, and keep anyone from easily retrieving bullets that might be mistakenly put into the pot while wet. (Most people use angled towels clamped to a bucket, and/or bench in some way. There are many examples on the castboolits forums.)

If you have suspect ingots or scrap, put it in a COLD (or at least empty) pot, and heat it up from there. As the metal comes up to temperature, it will dry any moisture present before getting hot enough for the alloy to melt.

--Alternatively, you could use a separate vessel for pre-heating ingots and/or scrap. My father, for example, used to use a cast iron frying pan on a coleman stove to get his ingots to about 350-375 F, before they went into the casting pot. It was a constant shuffle: Cold ingots went in one side. Hot ingots came out the other, and into the casting pot.
As a bonus, the pre-heated ingots don't take as long to melt in the pot, and they don't drop the temperature of the melt as much.


**There are several members of the castboolits forums that have shared their experiences with tinsel fairy visits that resulted in lead hitting their eyeballs. In every case, the lead caused their tears to flash to steam and offer some protection to the eyeball, but there was still enough retained heat in the lead to continue burning the eye and it didn't do anything for their skin. In ALL cases I've seen, the splattered lead had to be removed from their eyes by a doctor, after an excruciating trip to the hospital.
In one case, the guy couldn't even close his eye. He had a large glob of lead fused to his eyeball and eyelids, and just had to keep squirting saline into his eye during the trip to the hospital, and while waiting for a surgeon to figure out what to do.