Are match dies worth it?

woodland · February 15, 2005, 11:44 AM

I need to get a set of dies for my .308. It is my "precision rifle". When I start loading for it, I will be going for absolute max accuracy with every round. What is the difference between match dies, and "regular" dies? I will be loading on an RCBS Rock Chucker.

Thanks to all.

rn22723 · February 15, 2005, 12:09 PM

Personally I would get the Redding Deluxe Die set and the Carbide Expander ball. The die set come with FL and Neck dies along with a regular seater die. With that said, I would look at the competition seater to you can easily change the seating depth of your loaded rounds.

bill k · February 15, 2005, 05:18 PM

Is the adjustable seater portion of a compitition die the only difference? Or will a comp die give you a tighter group? I have RCBS dies and I can adjust the depth already.

30Cal · February 15, 2005, 05:43 PM

A comp seating die has a sliding collar that minimizes bullet runout (makes the sure the bullet goes dead straight into the case neck). However, you might get low runouts with just standard dies. Some comp seating dies have a micrometer seating depth adjusment which is nice (ie if you want them 0.005" deeper, you simply turn the dial to "5"). My advice is to buy or borrow a runout setup and mess around for a couple of days with it.

FWIW, my standard Hornady 308 seating die gives me some pretty large runout. When you roll my ammo, the bullet point wiggles in some cases. Still, I shoot solid Master scores with it. When I get a flier, there's always a reason other than "dunno--must have been my ammo."

woodland · February 15, 2005, 05:55 PM

I have noticed that "wobble" with the .223 I have loaded. I was wondering if match dies would fix that. Guess so.

CaseyC · February 15, 2005, 08:05 PM

I currently own 27 sets of dies (I know--it's ridiculous). RCBS, Redding, Forster, Lyman, Wilson. I have 1950's RCBS's and Lyman's through to a recently purchased set of Redding "Type S Bushing" dies. I like both sets of S Bushing dies I've bought, they seem to resize rounds SLIGHTLY more concentric (on average--but not every time) than say, my Forster dies. My Forster seater dies, both with and without the microseater adjustement seat my bullets SLIGHTLY more concentric (on average--but not every time).

The regular S Bushing (non-match) come with three dies, a bushing neck die, a body die, and seating die--$60-65 from Midway or Midsouth (I think Midsouth is cheaper). The S Bushing Match dies are three die set. The S Bushing Match set is waaaay more expensive. Does it do better? I have a Redding Match seater for my 270's and a Forster "Ultra" (with the micro-aduster). I think the Forster does a better job. On the other hand, I think standard RCBS dies made in the late 50's and early 60's, and then again in the 80's seem to be made to closer, and more consistent, tolerances and do a fine job.

Concentricty: Concentricty gauges and obsessing about concentricity can drive a guy nuts. Think about this: Most barrels that can chamber a variety of factory rounds (regardless if it's a factory barrel or a custom barrel) are by necessity, "sloppy". The have to be in order to function with different ammo and under "field conditions" (They must function with rain, snow, dirt, powder residue, pine needles and dead squirrells sometimes inhabiting the internal workings). Benchresters and their hyper-close tolerances don't have to deal with those conditions. (An example: An acquaintance of mine took his Jewel trigger equipped rifle to Canada during an October moose hunt a couple of years ago. After a few days of tromping around in the bush in humid, below zero weather, his trigger mechanism "froze up". He had to hold the rifle inside his coat for a few minutes, while the moose conveniently waited, and and when the trigger worked, shoot his bull. I have since read on a forum a similar experience somebody else had with a Jewel.
But I digress.

No receiver, bolt, chamber, throat, and barrel are perfectly aligned on their center axis with one another. Plus, when the round is sitting in the chamber, gravity takes over and the cartridge is lying at the BOTTOM of the chamber. Benchresters attempt to overcome this by chambering the neck to minimum (or less) tolerances, thus holding the neck in better (but still far from perfect) alignment with the axis of the bore.

This is getting too wordy. In the end, yes, a guy has a better chance of making his cartridges more concentric with some of the competition/match dies. The Redding S Bushing (regular or match) come as a three die set with a body die. As a proponent of partial resizing for "standard" chambers, I like the three die set. The price of the Redding Match set is downright breathtaking. The Forster dies come in a close second though. The micro-adjuster on match seater dies is handy--but not necessary.

Last but not least, check the inside of the case necks. Tumblers don't always get necks real clean. Even slightly dirty necks (and unlubed necks) can pull the neck out of alignment.

Casey

woodland · February 15, 2005, 11:32 PM

Thanks for all the help guys. Now I really can't decide.

February 15, 2005, 11:44 AM	#1
woodland Senior Member Join Date: December 26, 2001 Location: western wa. Posts: 564	Are match dies worth it? I need to get a set of dies for my .308. It is my "precision rifle". When I start loading for it, I will be going for absolute max accuracy with every round. What is the difference between match dies, and "regular" dies? I will be loading on an RCBS Rock Chucker. Thanks to all. __________________ "There is no spoon..."

February 15, 2005, 05:18 PM	#3
bill k Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 2004 Location: Dog Creek, CA Posts: 457	Is the adjustable seater portion of a compitition die the only difference? Or will a comp die give you a tighter group? I have RCBS dies and I can adjust the depth already. __________________ Retired Air Force 8th TFW The Wolfpack

February 15, 2005, 05:55 PM	#5
woodland Senior Member Join Date: December 26, 2001 Location: western wa. Posts: 564	I have noticed that "wobble" with the .223 I have loaded. I was wondering if match dies would fix that. Guess so. __________________ "There is no spoon..."

February 15, 2005, 08:05 PM	#6
CaseyC Member Join Date: November 29, 2004 Posts: 19	To spend or not to spend? I currently own 27 sets of dies (I know--it's ridiculous). RCBS, Redding, Forster, Lyman, Wilson. I have 1950's RCBS's and Lyman's through to a recently purchased set of Redding "Type S Bushing" dies. I like both sets of S Bushing dies I've bought, they seem to resize rounds SLIGHTLY more concentric (on average--but not every time) than say, my Forster dies. My Forster seater dies, both with and without the microseater adjustement seat my bullets SLIGHTLY more concentric (on average--but not every time). The regular S Bushing (non-match) come with three dies, a bushing neck die, a body die, and seating die--$60-65 from Midway or Midsouth (I think Midsouth is cheaper). The S Bushing Match dies are three die set. The S Bushing Match set is waaaay more expensive. Does it do better? I have a Redding Match seater for my 270's and a Forster "Ultra" (with the micro-aduster). I think the Forster does a better job. On the other hand, I think standard RCBS dies made in the late 50's and early 60's, and then again in the 80's seem to be made to closer, and more consistent, tolerances and do a fine job. Concentricty: Concentricty gauges and obsessing about concentricity can drive a guy nuts. Think about this: Most barrels that can chamber a variety of factory rounds (regardless if it's a factory barrel or a custom barrel) are by necessity, "sloppy". The have to be in order to function with different ammo and under "field conditions" (They must function with rain, snow, dirt, powder residue, pine needles and dead squirrells sometimes inhabiting the internal workings). Benchresters and their hyper-close tolerances don't have to deal with those conditions. (An example: An acquaintance of mine took his Jewel trigger equipped rifle to Canada during an October moose hunt a couple of years ago. After a few days of tromping around in the bush in humid, below zero weather, his trigger mechanism "froze up". He had to hold the rifle inside his coat for a few minutes, while the moose conveniently waited, and and when the trigger worked, shoot his bull. I have since read on a forum a similar experience somebody else had with a Jewel. But I digress. No receiver, bolt, chamber, throat, and barrel are perfectly aligned on their center axis with one another. Plus, when the round is sitting in the chamber, gravity takes over and the cartridge is lying at the BOTTOM of the chamber. Benchresters attempt to overcome this by chambering the neck to minimum (or less) tolerances, thus holding the neck in better (but still far from perfect) alignment with the axis of the bore. This is getting too wordy. In the end, yes, a guy has a better chance of making his cartridges more concentric with some of the competition/match dies. The Redding S Bushing (regular or match) come as a three die set with a body die. As a proponent of partial resizing for "standard" chambers, I like the three die set. The price of the Redding Match set is downright breathtaking. The Forster dies come in a close second though. The micro-adjuster on match seater dies is handy--but not necessary. Last but not least, check the inside of the case necks. Tumblers don't always get necks real clean. Even slightly dirty necks (and unlubed necks) can pull the neck out of alignment. Casey

February 15, 2005, 11:32 PM	#7
woodland Senior Member Join Date: December 26, 2001 Location: western wa. Posts: 564	Thanks for all the help guys. Now I really can't decide. __________________ "There is no spoon..."

February 15, 2005, 12:09 PM	#2
rn22723 Junior member Join Date: December 10, 2001 Location: Burbs of Minneapolis Posts: 676	Personally I would get the Redding Deluxe Die set and the Carbide Expander ball. The die set come with FL and Neck dies along with a regular seater die. With that said, I would look at the competition seater to you can easily change the seating depth of your loaded rounds.

February 15, 2005, 05:43 PM	#4
30Cal Senior Member Join Date: December 3, 2002 Posts: 1,264	A comp seating die has a sliding collar that minimizes bullet runout (makes the sure the bullet goes dead straight into the case neck). However, you might get low runouts with just standard dies. Some comp seating dies have a micrometer seating depth adjusment which is nice (ie if you want them 0.005" deeper, you simply turn the dial to "5"). My advice is to buy or borrow a runout setup and mess around for a couple of days with it. FWIW, my standard Hornady 308 seating die gives me some pretty large runout. When you roll my ammo, the bullet point wiggles in some cases. Still, I shoot solid Master scores with it. When I get a flier, there's always a reason other than "dunno--must have been my ammo."