Spare mags - a rational discussion

MLeake · August 17, 2009, 03:22 PM

Please, can we avoid the flames?

I have two reasons I consider rational for combining a reasonably high-cap pistol with a spare.

1) While muggers may often act solo, the trend in Atlanta (where I reside, though in the outskirts) and Orlando (where my parents reside, or in the outskirts) area robberies has been young males, in groups of 2 or 3. While I'm a very good shot, I don't expect any bullet to be a magic bullet, and I'd like to at least have a chance at 3 double-taps prior to a reload.

2) Standard stoppage drills, if tap/rack/pull doesn't fix the issue, often go next to dropping the magazine and trying a new one. Just because the first magazine is high-capacity, doesn't mean it will work.

Many people aren't worried about a multiple attacker scenario, and they may be statistically justified where they live. Do bear in mind that statistics are averages or norms, and allow for a wide degree of deviation. It would not be fun to encounter a deviation.

Many people have great faith that they will be able to resolve the issue either without firing a shot, or by only firing one or two rounds. That may also prove true, and is statistically fairly likely.

Last, many people feel that the odds of a stoppage in a critical moment are slim, and given a well-maintained firearm they are statistically correct. Still, I can't help but feel that there's a reason why the military and most police departments teach stoppage drills.

So, to recap, in the areas where I often find myself, the criminal trend is toward small groups of young BGs; there is a possibility that even with superb marksmanship - not guaranteed under the stress of an encounter - that I'd need at least six rounds, assuming no misses; and one possibly required step in a stoppage clearing drill is the removal and replacement of the magazine.

Please, let's try and keep this one civil.

Cheers,

M

THEZACHARIAS · August 17, 2009, 03:32 PM

Seems like a solid enough argument to me. I carry a spare regardless of capacity.

TailGator · August 17, 2009, 04:00 PM

This has been discussed many times on TFL, and the responses vary from 5-shot revolvers ("If you need more than five shots, you are a lousy shot!") to folks that carry so much spare ammo that I wonder how they walk around without their pants falling down.

Your reasoning seems sound, and if you are comfortable with it, I am on your side. If you care, I carry a G26, which has a 10-round magazine. A spare magazine slips in a pocket with little effort, so I carry it. I am not one who thinks he has to be prepared for an extended firefight every time I open the front door, but I am also aware that in an emergency the target is not going to be a stationary paper silhouette, and adrenalin is going to be high, so I just might miss. Combined with the possibility of having to react to a small group of assailants, like you said, that would seem to justify having a few extra rounds on board. How many is very much up to the individual and their perception of the threat and their abilities.

Even as kindly as you presented the question, neither you nor I are likely to avoid flames.

bababooey32 · August 17, 2009, 04:02 PM

MLeake - Good luck with this thread. The crux of this whole argument rests on one's perception of the likliehood of the various scenarios you described (and infinite others). The disconnect (to me) lies in the "low-cappers" disregard for the laws of probablities when deciding to carry a firearm and then full adherence to same laws when criticizing higher cap/spare magazine users.

The chances of being involved in a situation necessitating the drawing of your firearm are already so small as to be indistinguisghable from zero. Attempting to parse that potential encounter into multiple possible scenarios requiring different equipment is an exercise in futility that renders it moot. In other words, if you have made the decision to carry in the face of the "statistics", you might as well carry a few extra rounds too (either on-board and/or in a spare mag). Please note that I endorse the YMMV approach to this argument!

MLeake · August 17, 2009, 04:14 PM

I agree with you that I find it interesting how some people want to parse and weight statistics. You're right, if one wants to take precautions against the statistically unlikely need to draw a weapon, then why not take precautions against the statistically unlikely need to deal with multiple assailants.

The only problem I have with that, is that based on my personal acquaintances, not counting LEO....

... my ex had to pull a firearm once for SD against two would-be home invaders; the following year she had to pull a firearm against armed robbers at an ATM;
... my best friend had to pull a firearm against three would-be carjackers (one incident, three guys; luckily, they don't seem to have had a gun, just muscle and, initially surprise; he had a King Cobra, and ultimately surprise; they chose to depart the Mercedes); Note: this was before cell phones; he chose the wrong parking lot to use a pay phone; pay attention to your surroundings;
... a squadronmate of mine in flight training (I'm USN, he was USMC, we train together, along with USCG) shot and killed a carjacker in Louisiana while transferring from training at NAS Whiting to advanced training in Texas;
... my cousin was saved from a serial rapist by timely intervention from her German Shepherd.

I'm not counting a certain great uncle who ended up in a shootout with hijackers while running bootleg before I was born, according to family lore...

On top of that, within my first fifteen or so SCUBA dives, I'd encountered a large shark. Statistically, that's a once in a lifetime deal; most divers dream of an open-water encounter, but never get one.

I've also had close encounters with rattlesnakes and cottonmouths. My lady just had a (fortunately uneventful) encounter with a sun-basking rattler yesterday.

So, I tend to not feel too silly when I worry about "statistically unlikely" possibilities, so long as they aren't unlikely to the point of being ridiculous.

CWPinSC · August 17, 2009, 06:17 PM

If you feel the need to carry 30+ rounds, then do so. If you're attacked by multiples, can you get off shots at all of them before one gets you? Think about it - BANG! Resight, BANG! Resight, BANG!...etc. Be sure you pick the closest, most dangerous targets first. All that takes time you may not have. This isn't a kung fu movie where one guy is surrounded by ten and they attack one at a time. Tap, rack, pull, eject, insert, rack, pull. That's gonna take about 5 seconds, IF you're clean and fast. A human can cover over 30 feet in 5 seconds. Do you have time? It's not the number or rounds, but fast, accurate shots. I recently carried a 9+1 .40 S&W and changed to a 13+1 9mm, and I'm still undecided which is best.

Gang violence hasn't hit where I live yet, so I don't have the need for an arsenal on my belt. If you live in a bad area, carry what you think you need to survive.

Japle · August 17, 2009, 06:27 PM

Knowing what the “typical” scenario is doesn’t tell you a thing about what you’ll run into. After all, half the gunfights involve more than the average number of shots. You never know where you're going to be on the curve. You'll probably never be on the curve at all. Let's hope not.

I tend to prepare for something about 3 times as bad as anything I might reasonably expect. I carry a Glock 19 (16 rounds), a Glock 17+2 mag (19 rounds) and a P3AT (7 rounds). It's all very well distributed and very comfortable.

In the entire history of gunfighting, there has never been a case where one of the shooters wished he had a smaller gun that held fewer rounds of less powerful ammo.

sakeneko · August 17, 2009, 06:41 PM

MLeake, I don't deal with this issue because I have a five-shot revolver and the spare ammo issue isn't remotely paranoid with one of those.

But my husband carries a Springfield Armory SD-M. He has three spare magazines -- on in the gun when he's carrying concealed, one loaded with self defense ammo that he carries when carrying concealed, and two for practice so he can eject them into the dirt and reload the gun without risking damage to his self defense magazines. His feeling is that, while the extra carry mag might be unnecessary, they are a) cheap, b) easy to carry, and c) make him feel better.

I have no argument with those things. If the magazines were horrendously expensive or heavy and difficult to carry, I might think differently, but they aren't. So I don't see where the problem is with somebody choosing to carry a spare or two, even if I think chances of their needing it are slim to none.

Nnobby45 · August 17, 2009, 06:49 PM

Seems like lots of folks look at SD in the context they've created in their heads --that always seems to involve being confronted by one or two thugs on the street where one mag. (or even a couple of shots) would likely be enough.

Spare mag may be necessary when clearing certain malfunctions.

You might like to reload your pistol after a fight-- like it was before the first fight started.

Trouble sometimes happens on a larger scale than we figured on having to deal with. With single stack pistols, I have two spares and a 642 BUG. Part of the comittment I made to myself to stay alive as long as I can.

Piece of mind is a good enough reason to pack a spare mag or two--speaking for myself, anyway. Call it psychological rather than tactical if you want--I think it's both with either being reason enough.

jglsprings · August 17, 2009, 07:23 PM

Geeze, carry what you want. No one is on the prod because you carry what you are comfortable with. If they are, ignore them.

Kyo · August 17, 2009, 07:51 PM

I don't need 30+ rounds unless my gun can carry 15+ and my mag carries 15+. My mags hold 8 each. I keep 1 spare on me. thats 17 rounds. if I am outnumbered, I am not going to be an idiot and stand there blasting away. I am going to be running my a$$ off to get away/protect whoever I am with, especially if I am outnumbered.
Also, I am not worried about missing my target. I know how to shoot my 45

MLeake · August 17, 2009, 08:03 PM

... while moving, ducking, and using cover?

Have you ever done drills where objects are thrown at you while you shoot? (I have acquaintances who've been through Federal Air Marshal training; this is part of their course.)

Do you have the physical skills to fend off an attacker while you draw a weapon?

Do you know how to move when you've been grabbed from behind?

Do you think any of those factors could affect the way you might shoot your .45?

ThomasPaine · August 17, 2009, 08:04 PM

if you and your family are that lucky at the odds, I think you should be playing the lotto!

MLeake · August 17, 2009, 08:09 PM

... when carrying a single column mag, I usually only carry one spare as well. I'm not as worried about total round count, as I am worried about having a spare magazine in case the first one develops problems.

I don't foresee too many situations where I'll need more than 13 rounds, either. (I don't do the +1 thing, because I don't like to have a loose round when I unload the weapon; my smallest pistol has one 6 and one 7rd mag.)

Depending on what pistol I'm carrying, with the spare mag I have:

13 (Kahr, hasn't arrived yet but is on order)
16 (P239)
16 (P220)
24 (P229)
28 or 30 (CZ75D PCR; depending on if spare is compact or full size)
32 (CZ75B)

I'm no more ninja'ed out with 32 than with 13, since either way I'm carrying a spare primarily in case of stoppage problems.

Do I object to having 32 rounds when I carry the CZ? (48 if using a shoulder rig; the 2 spare magazines balance the pistol out a bit better, so spare mags may have non-tactical, purely creature comfort value too) No, I don't mind the extra ammo.

Do I feel undergunned with 16 rounds? No.

Just depends on what I'm carrying, but with semi-autos I always carry a spare mag.

Kyo · August 17, 2009, 08:10 PM

1. I know how to dodge stuff. And also how to get cover
2. If an attacker is at point blank range, I have a way lower chance of reaching for my gun. Instead, it will be my metal flashlight, my pocket knife, or something I can grab and fight with. Or even my gun, or extra mag to use to hit with.
3. It really depends on how I am grabbed. Bear hug? By the arm? Yea, I know how to move around. I am 150 lbs. I am small and agile, and fast.
4. Yes, they affect how I shoot my 45. Everything does.
You seem to be under the assumption that in Atlanta(where I also live, in Gwinnett, but have lived in Dekalb, and Fulton) people are stupid enough to keep attacking you once a presentation has been made. 2-3 retards aren't going to stick around after I pull out and start barking commands. Unless mentally altered, then all bets are off. Point is, you don't need all these bullets. You need correct tactics. I will bet my life on 17 and being smart instead of 30+ and spray/pray.
I am not saying if you carry a 9mm with 30+ rounds in 2 mags its too much. Do what you want, just don't think that I am not prepared with 17 rounds of 45's. its a misassumption

MLeake · August 17, 2009, 08:35 PM

On second thought, let's tone this down. I'm the one who wanted to avoid flame wars...

Suffice to say, as noted, I am a pretty good shot, with the military and (admittedly few, yet) competition scores to support that claim. I also have a fairly strong background in martial arts, am reasonably big and reasonably fit (although I really need to get rid of a mild case of dunlap disease), and have had some decent exposure to tactics.

When in the area, I tend to shoot in Marietta, and would be more than happy to meet up for a friendly TFL shooting get-together.

Resumes, in this instance, don't serve my original purpose, and may not be the most appropriate thing to post to support an argument, though sometimes they can be on point. Kyo's criticism is correct, and I'm removing mine.

Kyo · August 17, 2009, 08:41 PM

I don't understand why you need to give a resume. I am not attacking anyone. And the spray and pray isn't towards you, I was just using an example that I would rather be smart with my bullets then have a higher count and be reckless. again, not an attack on you. I took aikido. My favorite book is the dynamic sphere.

raftman · August 17, 2009, 08:41 PM

I don't carry a spare mag, I guess it is because I don't feel the odds are all that high that I'd need it. I may get a spare at some point, but it's not high on the list of priorities. I do keep my pistol clean and oiled, and it's a pistol that's proven itself reliable so I don't worry too much about a stoppage occurring. I guess, like the OP says, it comes down to statistics. Statistically speaking, I will likely never need a gun at all. There is a very small chance however, heaven forbid, that I do need it. In these cases, there's a relatively small chance that I'd need to actually fire the gun, and if I do, there's a very small chance that I'd need more than the 8 rounds that are in my pistol. I guess, to put in simply, I feel like, enough of my bases are covered.

Plus my pockets are already too full stuff as it is, keys, wallet, phone, pistol, etc.

MLeake · August 17, 2009, 08:41 PM

Also, please note that when I carry a .45, I carry one round less than you do, Kyo. This is not meant as an attack, just saying that I'm not knocking your 17 rounds. You have a spare. We actually appear to agree on at least that point.

pax · August 17, 2009, 08:46 PM

Started to close this, changed my mind.

Here's the deal, guys. I'm tired of watching these threads endlessly degenerate into polarized sides muttering "paranoid!" and "sheep!" at each other.

It stays open only as long as that can be avoided. At the moment I'm not exactly optimistic.

pax

MLeake · August 17, 2009, 08:48 PM

As noted above, resume was pulled. You were correct on that point, Kyo. However, can we please avoid turning this into a "spray and pray" issue. For some of us, we were taught from day one that we should always carry a spare magazine with a semi-auto, in case of feed issues / stoppages with the first magazine.

While there are mall ninjas and zombie hunters out there, most of us probably don't fall into that category. Many of us probably fall into current or former military or LEO, who were trained to carry the spare.

MLeake · August 17, 2009, 08:54 PM

I'll assume your old enough since you have a carry permit, Kyo, so I'll buy you a beer if you like.

Of course, we won't be able to carry if we partake.

Cheers,

M

PS Dynamic Sphere is a good book, a copy resides in my bookcase; have you read Aikido and the Harmony of Nature? I've been to a few of Saotome's seminars, and the man was just incredible on the mat.

bababooey32 · August 17, 2009, 08:58 PM

Quote:

In the entire history of gunfighting, there has never been a case where one of the shooters wished he had a smaller gun that held fewer rounds of less powerful ammo.

That about sums the whole thing up. I can't think of a better argument for either side then that!! might as well close it down now!!!

Kyo · August 17, 2009, 09:04 PM

Back on subject- when I baby sit my aunt's and uncles kids, I keep 2 extra mags with me for a total of 3+1 in the gun. First 2 are hollow points, the others are FMJs. Why? well, im in a house with a bunch of little kids. its just extra peace of mind because Im not actually walking around in public concealing a dual mag carrier and a full size gun +1 mag in the pocket. I can get away with it there.
If I ever go on a camping trip, or anything like that, I will load up all 4 mags again. It really depends. On everyday adventures, its just 1 spare. Out of town like to Helen- only 1 as well. Different state? probably 4

jglsprings · August 17, 2009, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Back on subject- when I baby sit my aunt's and uncles kids, I keep 2 extra mags with me for a total of 3+1 in the gun. First 2 are hollow points, the others are FMJs. Why? well, im in a house with a bunch of little kids. its just extra peace of mind because Im not actually walking around in public concealing a dual mag carrier and a full size gun +1 mag in the pocket. I can get away with it there.............

Good LORD!! I hope I never have to baby sit children that will require me to carry 4 magazines!!

August 17, 2009, 03:22 PM	#1
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Spare mags - a rational discussion Please, can we avoid the flames? I have two reasons I consider rational for combining a reasonably high-cap pistol with a spare. 1) While muggers may often act solo, the trend in Atlanta (where I reside, though in the outskirts) and Orlando (where my parents reside, or in the outskirts) area robberies has been young males, in groups of 2 or 3. While I'm a very good shot, I don't expect any bullet to be a magic bullet, and I'd like to at least have a chance at 3 double-taps prior to a reload. 2) Standard stoppage drills, if tap/rack/pull doesn't fix the issue, often go next to dropping the magazine and trying a new one. Just because the first magazine is high-capacity, doesn't mean it will work. Many people aren't worried about a multiple attacker scenario, and they may be statistically justified where they live. Do bear in mind that statistics are averages or norms, and allow for a wide degree of deviation. It would not be fun to encounter a deviation. Many people have great faith that they will be able to resolve the issue either without firing a shot, or by only firing one or two rounds. That may also prove true, and is statistically fairly likely. Last, many people feel that the odds of a stoppage in a critical moment are slim, and given a well-maintained firearm they are statistically correct. Still, I can't help but feel that there's a reason why the military and most police departments teach stoppage drills. So, to recap, in the areas where I often find myself, the criminal trend is toward small groups of young BGs; there is a possibility that even with superb marksmanship - not guaranteed under the stress of an encounter - that I'd need at least six rounds, assuming no misses; and one possibly required step in a stoppage clearing drill is the removal and replacement of the magazine. Please, let's try and keep this one civil. Cheers, M

August 17, 2009, 04:14 PM	#5
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	bababooey32 I agree with you that I find it interesting how some people want to parse and weight statistics. You're right, if one wants to take precautions against the statistically unlikely need to draw a weapon, then why not take precautions against the statistically unlikely need to deal with multiple assailants. The only problem I have with that, is that based on my personal acquaintances, not counting LEO.... ... my ex had to pull a firearm once for SD against two would-be home invaders; the following year she had to pull a firearm against armed robbers at an ATM; ... my best friend had to pull a firearm against three would-be carjackers (one incident, three guys; luckily, they don't seem to have had a gun, just muscle and, initially surprise; he had a King Cobra, and ultimately surprise; they chose to depart the Mercedes); Note: this was before cell phones; he chose the wrong parking lot to use a pay phone; pay attention to your surroundings; ... a squadronmate of mine in flight training (I'm USN, he was USMC, we train together, along with USCG) shot and killed a carjacker in Louisiana while transferring from training at NAS Whiting to advanced training in Texas; ... my cousin was saved from a serial rapist by timely intervention from her German Shepherd. I'm not counting a certain great uncle who ended up in a shootout with hijackers while running bootleg before I was born, according to family lore... On top of that, within my first fifteen or so SCUBA dives, I'd encountered a large shark. Statistically, that's a once in a lifetime deal; most divers dream of an open-water encounter, but never get one. I've also had close encounters with rattlesnakes and cottonmouths. My lady just had a (fortunately uneventful) encounter with a sun-basking rattler yesterday. So, I tend to not feel too silly when I worry about "statistically unlikely" possibilities, so long as they aren't unlikely to the point of being ridiculous. Last edited by MLeake; August 17, 2009 at 09:10 PM. Reason: clarification on carjacking incident

August 17, 2009, 06:49 PM	#9
Nnobby45 Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2004 Posts: 3,150	Seems like lots of folks look at SD in the context they've created in their heads --that always seems to involve being confronted by one or two thugs on the street where one mag. (or even a couple of shots) would likely be enough. Spare mag may be necessary when clearing certain malfunctions. You might like to reload your pistol after a fight-- like it was before the first fight started. Trouble sometimes happens on a larger scale than we figured on having to deal with. With single stack pistols, I have two spares and a 642 BUG. Part of the comittment I made to myself to stay alive as long as I can. Piece of mind is a good enough reason to pack a spare mag or two--speaking for myself, anyway. Call it psychological rather than tactical if you want--I think it's both with either being reason enough. Last edited by Nnobby45; August 17, 2009 at 07:01 PM.

August 17, 2009, 07:23 PM	#10
jglsprings Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2009 Posts: 1,827	Geeze, carry what you want. No one is on the prod because you carry what you are comfortable with. If they are, ignore them. __________________ Let's eat Grandma. Let's eat, Grandma. Commas save lives...

August 17, 2009, 08:03 PM	#12
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Do you know how to shoot your .45... ... while moving, ducking, and using cover? Have you ever done drills where objects are thrown at you while you shoot? (I have acquaintances who've been through Federal Air Marshal training; this is part of their course.) Do you have the physical skills to fend off an attacker while you draw a weapon? Do you know how to move when you've been grabbed from behind? Do you think any of those factors could affect the way you might shoot your .45?

August 17, 2009, 03:32 PM	#2
THEZACHARIAS Senior Member Join Date: January 26, 2009 Location: Louisiana Posts: 537	Seems like a solid enough argument to me. I carry a spare regardless of capacity.

August 17, 2009, 04:00 PM	#3
TailGator Senior Member Join Date: May 8, 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 3,787	This has been discussed many times on TFL, and the responses vary from 5-shot revolvers ("If you need more than five shots, you are a lousy shot!") to folks that carry so much spare ammo that I wonder how they walk around without their pants falling down. Your reasoning seems sound, and if you are comfortable with it, I am on your side. If you care, I carry a G26, which has a 10-round magazine. A spare magazine slips in a pocket with little effort, so I carry it. I am not one who thinks he has to be prepared for an extended firefight every time I open the front door, but I am also aware that in an emergency the target is not going to be a stationary paper silhouette, and adrenalin is going to be high, so I just might miss. Combined with the possibility of having to react to a small group of assailants, like you said, that would seem to justify having a few extra rounds on board. How many is very much up to the individual and their perception of the threat and their abilities. Even as kindly as you presented the question, neither you nor I are likely to avoid flames.

August 17, 2009, 04:02 PM	#4
bababooey32 Senior Member Join Date: March 19, 2009 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 161	MLeake - Good luck with this thread. The crux of this whole argument rests on one's perception of the likliehood of the various scenarios you described (and infinite others). The disconnect (to me) lies in the "low-cappers" disregard for the laws of probablities when deciding to carry a firearm and then full adherence to same laws when criticizing higher cap/spare magazine users. The chances of being involved in a situation necessitating the drawing of your firearm are already so small as to be indistinguisghable from zero. Attempting to parse that potential encounter into multiple possible scenarios requiring different equipment is an exercise in futility that renders it moot. In other words, if you have made the decision to carry in the face of the "statistics", you might as well carry a few extra rounds too (either on-board and/or in a spare mag). Please note that I endorse the YMMV approach to this argument!

August 17, 2009, 06:17 PM	#6
CWPinSC Junior member Join Date: July 1, 2009 Posts: 863	If you feel the need to carry 30+ rounds, then do so. If you're attacked by multiples, can you get off shots at all of them before one gets you? Think about it - BANG! Resight, BANG! Resight, BANG!...etc. Be sure you pick the closest, most dangerous targets first. All that takes time you may not have. This isn't a kung fu movie where one guy is surrounded by ten and they attack one at a time. Tap, rack, pull, eject, insert, rack, pull. That's gonna take about 5 seconds, IF you're clean and fast. A human can cover over 30 feet in 5 seconds. Do you have time? It's not the number or rounds, but fast, accurate shots. I recently carried a 9+1 .40 S&W and changed to a 13+1 9mm, and I'm still undecided which is best. Gang violence hasn't hit where I live yet, so I don't have the need for an arsenal on my belt. If you live in a bad area, carry what you think you need to survive.

August 17, 2009, 06:27 PM	#7
Japle Senior Member Join Date: October 12, 2004 Location: Viera, Florida Posts: 1,340	Knowing what the “typical” scenario is doesn’t tell you a thing about what you’ll run into. After all, half the gunfights involve more than the average number of shots. You never know where you're going to be on the curve. You'll probably never be on the curve at all. Let's hope not. I tend to prepare for something about 3 times as bad as anything I might reasonably expect. I carry a Glock 19 (16 rounds), a Glock 17+2 mag (19 rounds) and a P3AT (7 rounds). It's all very well distributed and very comfortable. In the entire history of gunfighting, there has never been a case where one of the shooters wished he had a smaller gun that held fewer rounds of less powerful ammo.

August 17, 2009, 06:41 PM	#8
sakeneko Senior Member Join Date: May 23, 2009 Location: Nevada Posts: 644	MLeake, I don't deal with this issue because I have a five-shot revolver and the spare ammo issue isn't remotely paranoid with one of those. But my husband carries a Springfield Armory SD-M. He has three spare magazines -- on in the gun when he's carrying concealed, one loaded with self defense ammo that he carries when carrying concealed, and two for practice so he can eject them into the dirt and reload the gun without risking damage to his self defense magazines. His feeling is that, while the extra carry mag might be unnecessary, they are a) cheap, b) easy to carry, and c) make him feel better. I have no argument with those things. If the magazines were horrendously expensive or heavy and difficult to carry, I might think differently, but they aren't. So I don't see where the problem is with somebody choosing to carry a spare or two, even if I think chances of their needing it are slim to none.

August 17, 2009, 07:51 PM	#11
Kyo Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Posts: 897	I don't need 30+ rounds unless my gun can carry 15+ and my mag carries 15+. My mags hold 8 each. I keep 1 spare on me. thats 17 rounds. if I am outnumbered, I am not going to be an idiot and stand there blasting away. I am going to be running my a$$ off to get away/protect whoever I am with, especially if I am outnumbered. Also, I am not worried about missing my target. I know how to shoot my 45

August 17, 2009, 08:04 PM	#13
ThomasPaine Member Join Date: August 4, 2009 Location: Missouri, USA Posts: 38	Mleake if you and your family are that lucky at the odds, I think you should be playing the lotto! __________________ "Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one. " --Thomas Paine--

August 17, 2009, 08:09 PM	#14
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	By the way... ... when carrying a single column mag, I usually only carry one spare as well. I'm not as worried about total round count, as I am worried about having a spare magazine in case the first one develops problems. I don't foresee too many situations where I'll need more than 13 rounds, either. (I don't do the +1 thing, because I don't like to have a loose round when I unload the weapon; my smallest pistol has one 6 and one 7rd mag.) Depending on what pistol I'm carrying, with the spare mag I have: 13 (Kahr, hasn't arrived yet but is on order) 16 (P239) 16 (P220) 24 (P229) 28 or 30 (CZ75D PCR; depending on if spare is compact or full size) 32 (CZ75B) I'm no more ninja'ed out with 32 than with 13, since either way I'm carrying a spare primarily in case of stoppage problems. Do I object to having 32 rounds when I carry the CZ? (48 if using a shoulder rig; the 2 spare magazines balance the pistol out a bit better, so spare mags may have non-tactical, purely creature comfort value too) No, I don't mind the extra ammo. Do I feel undergunned with 16 rounds? No. Just depends on what I'm carrying, but with semi-autos I always carry a spare mag.

August 17, 2009, 08:10 PM	#15
Kyo Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Posts: 897	1. I know how to dodge stuff. And also how to get cover 2. If an attacker is at point blank range, I have a way lower chance of reaching for my gun. Instead, it will be my metal flashlight, my pocket knife, or something I can grab and fight with. Or even my gun, or extra mag to use to hit with. 3. It really depends on how I am grabbed. Bear hug? By the arm? Yea, I know how to move around. I am 150 lbs. I am small and agile, and fast. 4. Yes, they affect how I shoot my 45. Everything does. You seem to be under the assumption that in Atlanta(where I also live, in Gwinnett, but have lived in Dekalb, and Fulton) people are stupid enough to keep attacking you once a presentation has been made. 2-3 retards aren't going to stick around after I pull out and start barking commands. Unless mentally altered, then all bets are off. Point is, you don't need all these bullets. You need correct tactics. I will bet my life on 17 and being smart instead of 30+ and spray/pray. I am not saying if you carry a 9mm with 30+ rounds in 2 mags its too much. Do what you want, just don't think that I am not prepared with 17 rounds of 45's. its a misassumption

August 17, 2009, 08:35 PM	#16
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Kyo... On second thought, let's tone this down. I'm the one who wanted to avoid flame wars... Suffice to say, as noted, I am a pretty good shot, with the military and (admittedly few, yet) competition scores to support that claim. I also have a fairly strong background in martial arts, am reasonably big and reasonably fit (although I really need to get rid of a mild case of dunlap disease), and have had some decent exposure to tactics. When in the area, I tend to shoot in Marietta, and would be more than happy to meet up for a friendly TFL shooting get-together. Resumes, in this instance, don't serve my original purpose, and may not be the most appropriate thing to post to support an argument, though sometimes they can be on point. Kyo's criticism is correct, and I'm removing mine. Last edited by MLeake; August 17, 2009 at 09:01 PM. Reason: Noted in body of text; also, ease of reading

August 17, 2009, 08:41 PM	#17
Kyo Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Posts: 897	I don't understand why you need to give a resume. I am not attacking anyone. And the spray and pray isn't towards you, I was just using an example that I would rather be smart with my bullets then have a higher count and be reckless. again, not an attack on you. I took aikido. My favorite book is the dynamic sphere.

August 17, 2009, 08:41 PM	#18
raftman Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2009 Location: Oregon Posts: 1,890	I don't carry a spare mag, I guess it is because I don't feel the odds are all that high that I'd need it. I may get a spare at some point, but it's not high on the list of priorities. I do keep my pistol clean and oiled, and it's a pistol that's proven itself reliable so I don't worry too much about a stoppage occurring. I guess, like the OP says, it comes down to statistics. Statistically speaking, I will likely never need a gun at all. There is a very small chance however, heaven forbid, that I do need it. In these cases, there's a relatively small chance that I'd need to actually fire the gun, and if I do, there's a very small chance that I'd need more than the 8 rounds that are in my pistol. I guess, to put in simply, I feel like, enough of my bases are covered. Plus my pockets are already too full stuff as it is, keys, wallet, phone, pistol, etc.

August 17, 2009, 08:46 PM	#20
pax Senior Member Join Date: May 16, 2000 Location: In a state of flux Posts: 7,520	Started to close this, changed my mind. Here's the deal, guys. I'm tired of watching these threads endlessly degenerate into polarized sides muttering "paranoid!" and "sheep!" at each other. It stays open only as long as that can be avoided. At the moment I'm not exactly optimistic. pax __________________ Kathy Jackson My personal website: Cornered Cat

August 17, 2009, 08:48 PM	#21
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Need for resume.... As noted above, resume was pulled. You were correct on that point, Kyo. However, can we please avoid turning this into a "spray and pray" issue. For some of us, we were taught from day one that we should always carry a spare magazine with a semi-auto, in case of feed issues / stoppages with the first magazine. While there are mall ninjas and zombie hunters out there, most of us probably don't fall into that category. Many of us probably fall into current or former military or LEO, who were trained to carry the spare. Last edited by MLeake; August 17, 2009 at 09:04 PM. Reason: Intent to play nice with others

August 17, 2009, 08:54 PM	#22
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Will be in Atlanta area in a couple weekends. I'll assume your old enough since you have a carry permit, Kyo, so I'll buy you a beer if you like. Of course, we won't be able to carry if we partake. Cheers, M PS Dynamic Sphere is a good book, a copy resides in my bookcase; have you read Aikido and the Harmony of Nature? I've been to a few of Saotome's seminars, and the man was just incredible on the mat. Last edited by MLeake; August 17, 2009 at 09:06 PM.

August 17, 2009, 09:04 PM	#24
Kyo Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Posts: 897	Back on subject- when I baby sit my aunt's and uncles kids, I keep 2 extra mags with me for a total of 3+1 in the gun. First 2 are hollow points, the others are FMJs. Why? well, im in a house with a bunch of little kids. its just extra peace of mind because Im not actually walking around in public concealing a dual mag carrier and a full size gun +1 mag in the pocket. I can get away with it there. If I ever go on a camping trip, or anything like that, I will load up all 4 mags again. It really depends. On everyday adventures, its just 1 spare. Out of town like to Helen- only 1 as well. Different state? probably 4