Rear sight to the right or Front to the left.

[JohnKSa]

The way I see it, even groups of 4" and more at 21 ft. should still allow you to diagnose a POA/POI problem.

A person shooting 4" groups at 21 feet is flinching unless they can't see well enough to line up the sights or have a physical problem that prevents them from holding the gun steady.

I've seen amazingly consistent flinches that repeatedly put all the shots off to one side, or off one way in elevation. Until the group sizes shrink down and flinching can be ruled out, it's not really possible to know if the reason the POI and POA don't line up is due to a sight adjustment issue.

[TunnelRat]

A person shooting 4" groups at 21 feet is flinching unless they can't see well enough to line up the sights or have a physical problem that prevents them from holding the gun steady.

Or their sight alignment at the time of the trigger press is subject to variation on each pull and it's distributed around the center. It's not always a flinch, often it's a lack of consistency. I have personally seen larger groups distributed around the center for a number of shooters because of slight errors on each shot.

I've seen amazingly consistent flinches that repeatedly put all the shots off to one side, or off one way in elevation.

So have I. I've also seen sights come from the factory where they're drifted significantly one way or the other in the dovetail.

Until the group sizes shrink down and flinching can be ruled out, it's not really possible to know if the reason the POI and POA don't line up is due to a sight adjustment issue.

My point has been I don't think you need ragged holes to adjust sights accordingly. It would certainly make diagnosing the issue easier, but if the skill level of the shooter isn't good enough to produce ragged holes then he/she certainly needs to get the sights on target. It may be a combination of the gun and the shooter, but hitting point of aim is obviously important. Obviously developing skill is important too, but given time/money limitations I'd rather see someone shooting POA currently and fix the skill as time allows.

If need be I'd say adjust now and then revisit as the OP's experience/skill improves. That's the beautiful thing about dovetails, it's not a permanent setting. And again, practice with snap caps, other shooters, these are all other measures that can be taken.

[JohnKSa]

Or their sight alignment at the time of the trigger press is subject to variation on each pull and it's distributed around the center.

This is another way of saying that they can't see well enough to keep the sight alignment proper or can't hold the gun steady.

If a shooter can see well enough to align the sights properly, and doesn't have a physical problem that prevents him/her from holding the gun steady, then the only reason for large groups at 21 feet is flinching.

I don't think you need ragged holes to adjust sights accordingly.

I agree.

A person who has a consistent flinch can adjust the sights and get the groups to line up with the point of aim. In my opinion that's like just putting a bandaid on a wound that's serious enough to need real attention. The flinch needs to be addressed.

The reason you want small groups is so you know for sure that you're adjusting the sights to compensate for a misalignment in the firearm as opposed to adjusting them to compensate for a flinch.

...if the skill level of the shooter isn't good enough to produce ragged holes then he/she certainly needs to get the sights on target.

I suppose there's some merit to this approach, especially in a case where the shooter is satisfied with their current level of performance.

Ok, all that said, if a person is trying to diagnose a problem with the goal of discovering whether there's an issue with the firearm, then it is important to get small groups to eliminate the shooter as the actual source of the problem.

[TunnelRat]

A person who has a consistent flinch can adjust the sights and get the groups to line up with the point of aim. In my opinion that's like just putting a bandaid on a wound that's serious enough to need real attention. The flinch needs to be addressed.



The reason you want small groups is so you know for sure that you're adjusting the sights to compensate for a misalignment in the firearm as opposed to adjusting them to compensate for a flinch.

That's why I said:

It would certainly make diagnosing the issue easier, but if the skill level of the shooter isn't good enough to produce ragged holes then he/she certainly needs to get the sights on target. It may be a combination of the gun and the shooter, but hitting point of aim is obviously important. Obviously developing skill is important too, but given time/money limitations I'd rather see someone shooting POA currently and fix the skill as time allows.

I suppose there's some merit to this approach, especially in a case where the shooter is satisfied with their current level of performance.

That's why I also said:

If need be I'd say adjust now and then revisit as the OP's experience/skill improves. That's the beautiful thing about dovetails, it's not a permanent setting.

Ok, all that said, if a person is trying to diagnose a problem with the goal of discovering whether there's an issue with the firearm, then it is important to get small groups to eliminate the shooter as the actual source of the problem.

It certainly makes the diagnosis more accurate, but again sometimes you make do with what you have.

[JohnKSa]

It certainly makes the diagnosis more accurate...

No, there's no diagnosis being made at all, accurate or otherwise. I think that the reason we appear to be talking past each other is because the word "diagnosis" is being misused.

The symptom is the POA/POI discrepancy. One can describe the symptoms without any clue as to what's causing the problem. (e.g. Don't know what's causing it, but the POI is off 8 inches to the left.)

The diagnosis tells you the underlying cause of the discrepancy. (e.g. The barrel is misaligned. The sights are misaligned. The shooter is flinching. The shooter is visually misaligning the sights. etc.)

Actually making a diagnosis requires eliminating enough variables that you can determine what's causing the problem.

Adjusting the sights without determining the underlying cause of the POA/POI discrepancy is treating the symptoms without making a diagnosis.

As I said, there's merit to that in terms of getting immediate results, but that shouldn't be confused with actually being able to nail down a diagnosis.

[TunnelRat]

I think that the reason we appear to be talking past each other is because the word "diagnosis" is being misused.

I really don't think that's it at all. I think I've used up enough of this thread. I hope the OP found any of my comments helpful. Have a nice day.

[Walt Sherrill]

Originally Posted by JohnKSa

Adjusting the sights without determining the underlying cause of the POA/POI discrepancy is treating the symptoms without making a diagnosis.

Doctors treat symptoms all the time, and also make incorrect diagnoses.

The OP made a diagnosis -- he saw that he was hitting to the left and that made him think the sights were misaligned. He adjusted the sights and that seemed to solve the problem.

Your concern is that the OP may have made an incorrect diagnosis and fixed the wrong problem; we may never know.

[Blindstitch]

Your concern is that the OP may have made an incorrect diagnosis and fixed the wrong problem; we may never know.

Oh believe me you will know. Originally when I purchased the gun the front sight wasn't centered and I thought that was the initial problem till I finally centered it. And that was a pain trying to get it to move. Then once it move it went to far so it took a while.

As soon as I know the solution to the problem so will you guys.

I would also like to thank everyone helping.

[TunnelRat]

And that was a pain trying to get it to move. Then once it move it went to far so it took a while.

Drifting sights with a punch can be a hassle. There are a number of universal tools of varying utility:

http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&key...l_3s73mpjit2_b

Model specific pushers, such as those by MGW, usually make drifting sights both easier and are often of better quality allowing for finer adjustments. Still $55 + shipping or so isn't too bad. My experience with the universal pushers is eventually the aluminum pusher block deforms, but that was after a lot of hard use. Something to consider maybe.

As soon as I know the solution to the problem so will you guys.

Thanks! It's good to hear back if ideas like other shooters, snap caps, different grips, etc actually work or help. A lot of time folks ask for feedback and disappear and we never know what was of use.

[Blindstitch]

Drifting sights with a punch can be a hassle. There are a number of universal tools of varying utility:

Yeah I ran across a lot of those tools but couldn't see it in my budget. At first I tried to drift the sights but It's just short of impossible without a sledge hammer.

I ended up modifying some C clamps and you should have heard the crack sound when it finally came free and skipped a hair further. I eventually removed it and put superlube in the dovetail and that made moving a lot easier but still very snug.

Now the front is centered but the rear has a top down screw that applies tension. Way easier.