Dependents in Line of Fire?

[Viceroy808]

Just good ol' me feeding logs into the fire while LASur5er is away ...

Most of you who carry CCW or don't, either way, probably have a loved one in your lives that you spend much time with. Thing is, most of these loved ones are probably unarmed, and incapable of defending themselves in high-stress situations. Even if they do have rudimentary knowledge of martial arts or self-defense skills, chances are that you are much better prepared to deal with it than they are. Not only that, but you probably do not wish to see them hurt in any way, and are thus saddled with a liability.

What changes in your routine do you accomodate when you are with a loved one (spouse, parent, friend) when you are out on the street? Different ways of walking? Entering cars? Choosing establishments? Do you think like a bodyguard? Do you tactics change? Your whole mindset?

Opinions, please.

[Viceroy808]

Agreed. But what if you're with someone who isn't used to your SOP such as a long-lost friend? Business client you just met?

My concern is (and it's run through my mind many, many times) that a dependent changes the equation of a hostile encounter. Instead of doing the utmost to survive, you end up doing the utmost to ensure the dependent survives - thereby making it likely that instead of walking away (easier to do when just yourself is at danger) you accelerate the confrontation when the dependent is threatened - thereby increasing your chances of injury/death. I'd think it's more likely that you'd be much more willing to draw a gun on a BG if a loved one was threatened, as opposed to just yourself alone. Call it emotional response.

Is this something that is unnecessary? Should one go into an encounter and subvert one's survival instincts, or one's protective instincts? What's your take on it?

[twist996]

every situation is different, so you plan as you can, train as much as possible, and try to be ready....have tried to work something out with the wife, but she doesn't take this kind of thing to seriously....my friends know how i am, so if i tell them to go/stay/duck they will...i carry, but for my protection, and that of a loved one...my goal is to avoid a situation, escape if i cannot, and confront only if i must....

[atlctyslkr]

Wife and I both carry and we have worked out a set of rules. Basically who gets to be primary and who gets to be secondary. (we've done alot of practicing at home with snap caps!). Since I can't get her off of purse carry I am usually set in primary mode because I can draw quicker (except when using ankle holster). The secondary is also going to draw but the main job of the secondary is to backup primary from covered position and call police. Primary chooses cover and escape plan. Both of us are responsbile for having good SA and alerting the other to potential issues. Fortunately we haven't had a chance to try out our tactics yet.

Due to some of the crazy rules here about carrying it's alot easier for a woman to get away with a gun in a purse and claim "I forgot it was in there". Sometimes she just isn't the primary she is the only!

[NRAhab]

My wife is a pretty decent sprinter when she needs to be. One thing that comes to mind is that she likes to hold hands when we walk together (and I am fine with this), but I usually have her hold my "off" hand, so my strong side is free.

This gets complicated if you abide by the old rule of chivalry that a woman should not walk closer the curb than a man.

[armedandsafe]

The idea that the woman walks away from the curb started to protect the woman's clothes from being splashed with mud and such as carriages passed by in the street. I have always walked on the inside, as I have felt that the woman is in more danger of being accosted from an alley or dark doorway than being splashed by passing horses.

If a BG reaches out from a dark alley and grabs one of us as a hostage, there is always the thought of taking the aimed shot at the BG's head, over the shoulder of the captive. My wife is a better shot at this than am I, so...

Pops

[mete]

Your family members should be educated .I've always told my GF that if it happens she is to get away from me and behind cover immediately.

[Don H]

Thread start date 11-21-2000, 09:31 PM. Wouldn't it be easier to start a new thread since some of the original posters are no longer here to carry on the conversation? Maybe include a reference link?

[atlctyslkr]

Thread start date 11-21-2000, 09:31 PM. Wouldn't it be easier to start a new thread since some of the original posters are no longer here to carry on the conversation? Maybe include a reference link?

Let's let a jury of our "peers" decide.
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=216629

[Winston007]

This post has brightened my day!

I DO NOT GO FOR TACTICAL WALKS WITH MY WIFE.



Guys get a life!

[tony pasley]

family knows to stay left side i go thru the door first and i get to the vechile and look in before opening. they grew up with this way of life and now are using the same things with thier families

[TooTall]

Here are 2 true stories. I'll try to condense as much as possible.

#1: An L.A. County Sheriff Reserve Deputy walked into a "Mom & Pop's"-type store, not knowing that an armed robbery was in progress. The Reserve Deputy had his 3-year old son along as he entered the store.

From what I was able to find out, the Reserve Deputy felt that it was unsafe for him and his son to exit the store, so he pushed his son onto the ground and told him to stay there, then the Deputy pulled out his off-duty weapon. The Deputy thought that he had gotten the "drop" on the suspect, but a gunfight quickly ensued. The shoot-out ended quickly when the suspect was able to run out of the store. At that point, the Deputy found that his son had been shot in the head by the suspect! The Deputy had THOUGHT that his young son would be safe on the ground, but one of the suspects rounds had ricocheted off a steel display case, then struck the 3-year old on the ground.

#2: An off-duty LAPD officer and his wife had gone out for dinner with another married couple. At the end of the evening, while dropping off the other couple, all of them were out of the car talking on the sidewalk when a ski masked armed robber jumped from behind a nearby bush.

The armed robber took the officer's wife as a hostage, and demanded the wallets from the two men and the ladies purses. The demands were met, but the robber didn't release his control hold of the officer's wife. The suspect, with the 2 purses and 2 wallets stuffed into his shirt, started backing away from the 2 males and the other lady.

Two things went through the off-duty officer's mind as he stood there, watching helplessly, while his wife struggled but was unable to free herself.
The officer feared for her life if the suspect was able to kidnap her. The second thing was that every step away from him meant a longer shot, if he resorted to drawing and firing his off-duty "snub-nose" revolver. The officer TRIED to prompt his wife to drop to the ground as he pulled out his revolver, but she was unable to do so. In a flash of a milli-second, the suspect forced his hand by turning his weapon in the direction of the officer and his friends. The officer took aim and fired one round which, at first, appeared to have struck the suspect in the head. The suspect and his hostage fell to the ground, and the suspects firearm skittered into the street.

This second incident also turned out sorrowful, for the officer's single round had hit his wife in the head, not the suspect! Even though the officer took what he thought was a "careful" aim, the struggle that his wife was putting up caused her to move in front of the suspect.

The officer SOMEHOW remained professional, not knowing whether his wife was still alive or deceased. He kept the suspect at gunpoint until on-duty officers arrived and took charge. His wife was rushed to the hospital, but she didn't make it to surgery. The suspect's firearm? A "replica" gun! He was convicted of murder, but was spared from the death penalty! Sad story, especially since I had known that officer since high school, and I knew his wife!

My personal belief is that there are NO set "plans" that you can make with a loved one! Sure, you can discuss certain things, but when REAL LIFE enters the picture, all of the plans and scenario playing will go to the way-side. As far as being the "CCW" person of the family, it's best that you work on your "situational awareness" skills and perception. It may boil down to a "judgement call" on your part, coupled with an instantaneous reaction....or maybe even INACTION! Sure, it will piss you off by having to comply with the demands of a suspect, but I'm sure that you will agree that the safety of you and your loved ones is worth ANY amount of money or valuables!

Lastly, about the only thing that I've "coached" my wife and daughter about, pertaining to being confronted with an armed robber, is to "faint" and stay put! After that, it will be up to me to react in one way or another. If my "fainted" family members are between me and the armed suspect, I'll just have to "eat crow" until I can do anything else!

[revjen45]

I pack 24/7 even though we live the most boring lives in the world. I realize from earlier experience that the world is full of crazy people, and you don't know who they are until they wig out. My wife and I have not done any sophisticated tactical drills, but we have discussed that if assaulted we will not give up, and if she is taken hostage to duck because there will be a lot of lead in the air real soon. We walk with her on my left so my strong hand is free. When we take a long car trip we always have more than 2 guns, so if we have problems we are both armed.

[silicon wolverine]

Personally if my loved one was hosatge with a gun to head i probably wouldnt take the headshot and would go for a shoulder level shot. One, its generally not lethal to get shot in the shoulder. Two, the bullet will likely pass though the hostage (if it hits them) and end up in the perp. Getting shot will likely put both of them off balance, giving you a chance to exploit the opening for a second shot or a HTH scenario. JMHO

SW

[Mr. James]

My God, Too Tall, those stories are simply horrible. I'm not sure how much fight I'd have left in me in either scenario.

My son is the primary dependent in my life at present - sadly, I don't have to provide for my wife's protection. My son won't be much of a partner at this point. My greatest concern would be he'd try to kick the bad guy's butt (ten-year-olds can have slightly unrealistic expectations). If accosted, I would try to put distance between my son and me, drawing the goblin's attention and affections as I went. Circumstances permitting, I'd shove my son under a vehicle or behind cover as I moved in the opposite direction. If said BG goes for my son, all bets are off. As long as I'm making way on my own steam, I'm not letting my son be taken.

[meanoldman]

I have trained to use my wife as a shield and I keep her between me and the bad guys.

[Raptor5191]

To back up TooTall's stories on the importance of making an intelligent move and decision:

LASD Deputy (offduty) has his kids with him, witnesses bad guys coming out of a just comitted robbery (I think it was a bank, but could have been a convenience store....I don't remember any more).

He feels that he MUST act. So, he IDs himself, moves away from his POV, and engages the bad guys. He gets 2 of them. The third one surrenders as backup arrives.

Fight ends. He finds that one of his kids had taken a round to the head.

When they interviewed the shooter, he stated he did it on purpose. He knew that if the deputy saw that his child was shot he would disengage and they could escape.

[Ledbetter]

Knee shot is an alternative to head or shoulder shots when a "shield" is involved. Sorry to read these stories.

[TooTall]

I'll add something else: If you ARE going to go through some sort of pre-planning with family members, I'd suggest that you make it a "clue" word of some sort AND some sort of movement to be taken by the non-gun members.

As a LEO, I worked out "code" words with partners. The main "code" word was simply "gun", and that meant that a gunfight was going to immediately begin. An off-shoot of that would be during an officer that was compromised and taken as a hostage, and the hostage would give the "code" word "gun", to let his partner know that he (the hostage) would be hitting the deck. Upon hearing "gun", the UN-compromised officer would immediately start firing rounds at waist level, or higher.

A number "code" was very efficient, too. Simply, one of the officers would say "One", "Two" or "Three". The "One" took the place of the word "go", and meant that the suspect was "GO-ing" to be arrested. "Two" meant "no", that everything checked out okay, and no reason to arrest. "Three" meant "further", as in "I think we need to investigate this person a bit further". In a family situation, you could use "One" to covertly tell them to move to the left, "Two" would mean to move to the right, and "Three" would mean to get behind you. Heck, you could use additional numbers to denote such things as "get back in the car", "get behind the car", "run like HEQQ", etc.

Communication skills come in QUITE handy during all "tactical" situations....and communicating with a "number system", so that no one else knows what you mean might come in very handy. Hand signals also work, but they'd be compromised when a bad guy yells "Hands UP!"

[odessastraight]

We were thinking along the same lines, mean'oldude, except I was thinking more as using her for concealment instead of cover. Maybe she could be trained to lie down and provide some cover like those troopers' horses in the Indian wars. Of course if you have the kids along they'll whine and beg for stuff and drive the BG nuts anyway.

[Raptor5191]

TooTall...

Funny you mentioned this stuff. I related some of these exact same tips in another thread here last week.

Outstanding advice, sir!

[Edward429451]

Different ways of walking? Entering cars? Choosing establishments? Do you think like a bodyguard? Do you tactics change? Your whole mindset?

Of course! But it's not (necessarily) a tactical walk par se. It's a gentelmenly thing that just happens to afford a bit of tacticality. Walk between her and the road. Used to be so she wouldn't get splashed or hit by a car but it also allows access to cw for modern day scenario. Other points are situational.