Knife in a Gun Fight

[Frank Ettin]

Dennis Tueller's original article - http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/T.../How.Close.htm

Thank you. That's a good resource.

I notice that Tueller talks about how being able to recognize what your danger zone is and that someone in it is a credible threat allows one to take early, appropriate defensive, risk mitigating actions.

[zincwarrior]

Little knives - I know two cases where a man was stabbed once with a paring knife (the little guy you use to slice an apple) and proceeded to just drop dead right there.

Thats one unlucky dude.

[zincwarrior]

We also have to remember that we may think someone is a threat a good way out, but that doesn't mean you can draw and plug them at that distance.

its a factor on why BGs can get close.

[ClydeFrog]

I think all TFL members can agree that threat recognition is an important factor. Being alert & aware of any knives, big or small, can make a serious difference.
There is a old training saying too; "distance equals safety".
I wouldn't negate a small blade either. In 2011, I had a incident doing security work where a street guy jabbed another vagrant with a small folder in the chest.
There was a large amount of blood that came out rapidly. The victim was treated by EMTs & went to a local hospital.
The attacker saw me & fled the scene. He was arrested by police with the help of a K9/working dog. All the charges were later dropped.

[csmsss]

There's a major assumption being made here, one that I don't find particularly valid. And that assumption is that a useful fighting knife is somehow much easier to bring into action from a position of concealment than a concealed firearm. Can anyone show evidence that it takes appreciably longer to draw and bring a firearm to bear than a knife?

[kraigwy]

There is being "prepared" and there is "brandishing".

There is a difference, I teach you can be prepared and not brandish.

Brandishing could get you thrown in jail if the perceived there turns out not to be a treat. Then not being able to be prepared because of the fear of a brandishing charge could get you hurt.

Lets say you're at an ATM late and night. A flaky looking guy approaches the ATM. Is he a threat or is he waiting to use the ATM. Flaky looking guys use ATM's also. I do, many think I'm flaky looking.

One should adjust his carry where he can be prepared, or ready, and no one but he knows it.

I carry a 642 in my pants pocket. I constantly walk around with my hands in my pocket.

I demonstrate to my students that just because you don't have your firearm out, doesn't mean you can't have the advantage.

Its practice and method of carry. I want to see one present the handgun from concealed, firing and hitting center mass on an USPSA target at 3 yards.

Its doable, in demonstrating last night, using a shot time I did it in 0.34 seconds. I think I could do it faster but I was reacting to the shot timer instead of acting.

I don't think there is a man alive that can cover 21 feet in 1/3 seconds.

I good method of practice is to use a "blue training gun", the same type you carry. Have someone face you with their arms bent at the elbows. Elbows at the side, and hands body with a part.

Your training partner is to clap his hands when he sees you start to draw. The idea for him is to clap his hands before the gun gets there. Your idea is to have him clap his hands with the gun between the hands.

I know lots will say its BS. Its not. Its how you carry the gun. And it takes a bit of practice.

The theory is you can act faster then you can react. You are acting, the hand clapper is re-acting.

But you have to find a method of carry that allows you to present the handgun instantly.

As I said, I pocket carry. Another good method is carrying in the front pocket of a "hoodie" (we use to call them sweat shirts".

You also have to thing about the pistol/revolver. Exposed hammers can and will hang up.

With a non-hammer exposed J-frame also has the advantage of being fired from inside the sweatshirt (or coat) pocket. Pistols don't give you that advantage.

Keep the treat or possible treat beyond arms length. Its simple just take a step backwards.

Threats are like grenades. If a grenade lands a meter or more away, hit the ground. If a grenade lands with in a meter, take a step then hit the ground.

In short being "ready" doesn't mean you have to walk around with gun in hand. We cant do that, nor do we need to do that.

[ClydeFrog]

From a training/alertness standard too, Id be aware of this important factor too;
street people or violent criminals can be alert or key into danger signs too.

Doing security work in some "less desirable" locations I can tell you, it's not uncommon for thugs or crooks to size up a possible target or be leery of any possible weapons or danger signs.
If see any "danger signs" or problems, more than likely they already saw you too.

[DT Guy]

There's a major assumption being made here, one that I don't find particularly valid. And that assumption is that a useful fighting knife is somehow much easier to bring into action from a position of concealment than a concealed firearm. Can anyone show evidence that it takes appreciably longer to draw and bring a firearm to bear than a knife?

I think it's because one of the primary advantages of a knife is its ability to attack with extreme stealth. Since we're (presumably) discussing defense, rather than attacking knife owners, the assumption is that you will be drawing your gun against an already drawn knife.

Larry

[Bartholomew Roberts]

This past "Knife-wielding man vs. five officers with guns" should make a mandatory appearance in every "knife vs. gun" thread.

As far as carry goes, I don't actually even think of knives as weapons generally because I haven't ever used them that way or trained to use them that way. I mean, I understand that they can be used that way in a pinch; but it isn't my primary purpose in carrying them.

Having said that, I usually have anywhere from 3-4 knives on me. So I've generally got one accessible to either hand. Right now, I'm carrying a keychain SAK, an M4 Sebertool (also on keychain), a Benchmade Rift folder and a CRKT SPEW on the belt (accessible to either hand). The SPEW is just so darn handy, light and fast that I use it frequently (despite needing to resharpen the soft Chinese steel all the time); but I've been carrying a folder in my pocket since Junior High and it just bugs me not to have one with me. So I end up carrying two knives with 3-4" blades.

[Nanuk]

The guy you have to worry about with a knife is not the guy you see coming. It is the knife you do not see coming.

One of the times I was stabbed we were clearing up a fight at the EM's club. There were 8 MP's and 300 people fighting. As we worked our way into the melee a guy came out of the shadows and stabbed me in the back. I did not even realize i had been stabbed until after the fight.

The Tueller drill is great, but it is only ONE tool. Offline,shoot, offline shoot.... Whatever you must do, even to the point of taking defensive cuts.

[kraigwy]

The guy you have to worry about with a knife is not the guy you see coming. It is the knife you do not see coming.

You can't protect from everything. We can also be struck by lightning or a car driven by a texting driver crossing the center line.

In reality, if we are confronted by someone with a knife, or other weapon its in a mugging, car jacking, home invasion, type incident.

In these cases the bandit makes a demand and expects you to follow that demand.

In that case, you are at an advantage, you act, he has to re-act to your action.

Go back top the "clapping hands" drill I mentioned. You can easily get to the point where you can get your (training) gun out fast enough where he claps, ending up with the gun between his hands.

In this case the one clapping the hands KNOWS you are going to draw and still cant beat you. How can someone who isn't expecting you to draw going to beat you?

[Nanuk]

You can't protect from everything. We can also be struck by lightning or a car driven by a texting driver crossing the center line.

Well put, It is basically what I was saying. I was stabbed, We both went to the hospital. Only difference is he then went to Leavenworth.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Don't bring a gun or knife to a truck fight. If you watched the latest Justified, a DEA agent and crook square off for a Tueller drill shootout or stabfest.

At that point, they are both run over by another crook in a truck. Next week, Raylan and the crook face off in what they call the 21 foot rule.

Raylan is a shooting demon - my money is on him.

[kraigwy]

I love Justified. That old DEA agent won me over. "Three seconds to drop the gun" BOOM, was that really three seconds.

I like the show, but it made me cross Kentucky off my list of states I would live in.

[YeshuaSaves]

Title is a bit confusing, but I always carry (firearm) on my right side, as I am right handed. I also rarely carry my knife around.....maybe I should though!

[FireForged]

You cant be serious. Those same ladies would likely do far worse in their NATURAL HABITAT than in the confines of YOUR DEMONSTRATION where they have an idea of what is coming and what specifically they must do. I would love to see how they fare as they are fishing for their car remote in a busy Walmart parking lot or as they hold the door for a little old lady.

I think you miss the point entirely. Its not that a knife wielding person cant successfully win at 21 feet.. its the false premise that they will [always] win first strike at that distance.

And your assertion that it takes years of training to be good with a knife is ridiculous. A knife is simple tool. Even a novice can be lethal.

it takes years to be good at [any] fighting discipline.. fist, spear, sword, gun, knife ..whatever. You can call it ridiculous but unless you can qualify that assertion with something more than a quip, its not likely to hold much merit.

[Skadoosh]

it takes years to be good at [any] fighting discipline.. fist, spear, sword, gun, knife ..whatever. You can call it ridiculous but unless you can qualify that assertion with something more than a quip, its not likely to hold much merit.

How many people have been attacked and killed by a knife-wielding person? Now, how many of those knife-wielding people spent years training in the art of knife fighting?

Like I said before, anyone can be lethal when they pick up a knife. Or a gun. Or a spear.

[Blue Duck]

Getting back to the original OP's question. My answer is yes, it makes sense to carry a knife or some other weapon on the weak side or shall I say opposite side of the gun hand.

This was driven home to me in a training video I seen where the student was being confronted by a man wanting money from him, at an ATM. The ATM was located in such a way that the student didn't have an escape route, he was cornered due to the layout of the ATM.

The student, did not attempt to draw his weapon (strong side from under a jacket) until the robber was close enough to quickly step forward and grab the student's hand and arm before the student could clear leather. The robber (instructor in this case) grabbed the students hand with both if his to control and disarm the student. The student's other hand was free. This is exactly where an off side weapon could save the day, and one reason I often carry a 6.5 inch Bowie knife in an inside the pants holster on my off side. All it takes is very gross motor skills to grab the handle of that Bowie Knife, and deliver a devastating cut or several in a split second, that can sever tendons, etc, while the bad guy is still trying to control my gun hand.

This is the question the OP was asking. He wasn't asking if he was better off bringing a knife to gun fight, as per the 21 foot rule, etc.

In this training video, I think the instructor was trying to show the problem with letting someone get too close before acting, and obviously the defender waited too long to draw, but we can get into these situations so easy, because, among other things, sometimes it hard to evaluate the danger, and we can't just go pulling on everyone that says hello and gets a little too close.

[HiBC]

I'm reminded of a scene in "Raiders of the Lost Arc"

For one point,in Colorado,only handguns are authorized for concealed carry.Its likely different in other states,but checking is a good idea.

What I do not understand:

OK,I put a buck in a soda machine,I lean over to get my soda,and,a knife wielding crazy launches himself from 21 ft away....I got that part...so,if I have A Fairbairn or a Randall or a Texas Bowie,and a 1911,I'm supposed to(according to some) pull my knife because it is alledgedly faster?HMM,no,because then I'll be in a knife vs knife fight .I think I'll dial 1-911.Andsome level of vigilance needs to be up all the time.A bit like the Green Hornet could be jumped by Cato at any time.
Maybe sometimes if you are really wrapped up.like,surprise,a mountain lion lands on your back,is biting your head/neck and ripping youreyes out with his claws...its whatever your hand,any hand,can find and use.

[Blue Duck]

No you don't pull your knife instead of your 1911, if someone pulls a knife on me, I intend to shoot him ASAP if the situation warrants.

Carrying a knife on the opposite side is the same principal as carrying a backup gun, almost. It's about having options if your first and best option (the 1911) gets compromised in some way.

What I carry, changes somewhat, based on the time of year, and the clothes I want to wear. Dressing around your weapons can be a pain at times.