Going too far … where is the line?

[Scott Evans]

In a self defense situation where by you have made every attempt to avoid a confrontation and you still find it necessary to take physical action at what point do you stop? Where is the line?

As I ponder this I am forming the opinion that if it becomes necessary to put someone down at all then it is just as necessary to insure that he stay down long enough for the defender to make good a retreat from the area of danger. I say this because I have come to the conclusion that a 2nd attempt by an attacker is probably MORE dangerous that the first. With the first attack the attacker may have made assumptions that lead him to believe that the victim was not as capable of self defense as he actually was. By thwarting the initial attack the victim loses any advantage of surprise in defending subsequent attacks. In getting up the Bad Guy now realizes that he underestimated you and he will not make the same mistake again. His second attack will be as focused and as intense as he can make it. His perspective will not only be to get the best of you but to punish you for your initial success. If he has or can find within reach a weapon he will use it. In allowing him to get up you remove the best (and possibly the only) advantage and or chance that you once had to survive …

This scenario goes primarily in instances where you are most likely unarmed and out matched physically. I’m not advocating finishing someone off but I am looking for a prudent and reasonable place to stop the defensive action that will best allow me a retreat from the danger area while not making me one of the bad guys as well.

Help me out with this …

[U.F.O.]

If you're unarmed and outmatched physically.....how did you put the BG down in the first place?

U.F.O.

[JSandi]

A lot of people here assume that if you encounter a B/G on the street he will be trained, disciplined and ready to take whatever action is necessary to follow thru with his original intent, to rob, rape etc…

When in most cases the attacker (assuming he’s not doped up) is just a sacred or more scared than you are.

Most cases I’ve seen and worked involving assaults where the one being attacked resisted a lone attacker both weaponless once the one being attacked landed a good hit or two it was over, attacker fled.

Where the one being attacked was armed with any weapon, one that jumps to mind involved a guy how grabbed a shovel out of the back of his truck and the attacker immediately unassed the place.

If you had a gun I’m sure the attacker would flee like the wind.

Now if it’s weapon vs. weapon it’s anyone guess but at that point IMHO it’s a deadly force situation you know what you gotta do.

Groups of attackers up the ante you can go to deadly force quicker especially if they telegraph to you an intent to do harm such as encircle you make overt threats or gestures you must assume the worst and act accordingly.

[Lawyer Daggit]

This is always a tough call- I do not know if there is a practical way of measuring it.

If you have got a person on the ground and commence beating their face to a pulp in a frenzy- this is clearly not reasonable, but how do you measure the effect of an initial act of defence afterwhich an attacker will either run off, give up, or be really pissed off and come after you again in an attack that you correctly say is likely to be more violent than the first.

It is in this situation where non fatal sprays like mace are really useful.

[Sneevil]

I think the notion that somebody will get up again after you 'put them down' is Hollywood movie fiction. If they've been shot, they may still be conscious, but there is no way they're going to attack you again. Just keep your eye on them.

[Scott Evans]

If you're unarmed and outmatched physically.....how did you put the BG down in the first place?

U.F.O.

I said out matched not helpless. Surly you can imagine how it is possible get the drop on someone who is not expecting it; even if they would normally mop up the floor with you.

Example: they grab your shirt and you respond with an arm bar locking their wrist, elbow and shoulder. Technically you stopped the attack. Do you let go now or break the arm? If the guy is bigger, stronger, and younger and in better shape then you it may not go to well. Dog by the ears or tiger by the tail; take your pick, I don’t like my choices.

[CB3]

In most civilian self defense situations, stopping the attack is all you are allowed to do. However, that is a subjective judgment.

In order to use "in fear of your life" as justification for shooting in self defense in Utah (and probably many other jurisdictions), you must believe the attacker has the ability and means to take your life.

If you shot an armed attacker and he went down, paused, and then started to get up again, still armed, if you had time you could try a verbal warning, but you could be within your rights to shoot again. What witnesses saw and reported might be different than what you saw and felt.

There would also be a difference between the attacker having a contact weapon or a gun. Could distance alone protect you once he had been knocked down?

An additional question at this point is, if you did not kill him, but the attack was stopped, what do you do? Hight tail it out of there? Cover him or even restrain him while someone calls the police? Wait for police? What if there are one or more other potential attackers (armed or not) who will not leave the scene, who are not hit and are capable of coming after you?

CB3

[U.F.O.]

O.K. Scott.....I'm with you now.

Let's say a rather large, unarmed brute grabs you unjustly and is drawing back his fist for the K.O. and you knee him in the nads, putting him temporarily on the mat. You don't possess the ability, for whatever reason, to run away like Bob Hayes in his prime, you're also unarmed and Mr. Mongo is looking like he could shake off the shot you gave him and totally ruin your day. Here's my thought.

Everyone.....especially those who carry firearms concealed.....needs to carry O.C. (pepper spray) No exceptions. 5.3mm SHU's out of a 2oz. container would put Godzilla out of action for 15-30 minutes.

http://www.selfdefenseproducts.com/sprays.htm

While slappy is rubbing his crotch, you unload right in his eyes and just bought yourself much needed time to make your escape.

The reason CCW holders need to carry O.C. is this product could enable you to defuse a situation before it escalates to the life or death stage. For $12.00 it's worth the price of admission. I don't leave the house without a Fox Labs in my front shirt pocket. I think everyone needs to carry O.C., a good quality folding knife and a gun.....with a valid CCW permit of course.

U.F.O.

[Dwight55]

I think you have the idea UFO, . . . paraphrasing it would follow along the lines of gunfight rule #19: Decide to be aggressive ENOUGH, quickly ENOUGH.

Having the pepper spray gives you an in between platform from fist to .45 and may either completely stop it, . . . or if he is a real baddy, . . . give you time to exit stage left.

I hadn't given much thought about some kind of spray, but you make a very valid point (or 2).

May God bless,
Dwight

[abelew]

Pepper spray is a good idea, and down here in FL, a concealed weapons permit means any weapon (baton,etc). I would always carry a nonlethal means of protection also, and attempt to use it. It would have the benifit of not killing, and if you did have to kill the BG, you could show that you had exhausted other means of protection, and they were unsucessfull. OC spray dont always work on everyone. Seen this happen. It can also get in your face, which would be bad. Im a big fan of extendable batons, but then again, I have been trained in their useage.

[JohnKSa]

Like any self-defense situation, you stop when there's no longer a threat.

When it comes to tooth and nail, the threat stops when he can't get up to try to hurt you. If he can stand, he can resume trying to hurt you. While he's down he can't. Once he's down, your job is to make sure he stays there--long enough that you can get away safely. The instant that you are sure you can get away safely, you need to break off and get away.

[Timulator]

...and if you did have to kill the BG, you could show that you had exhausted other means of protection, and they were unsucessfull.

This is true even if you didn't have time to resort to less-lethal means of defense and had to go straight for your gun. Just the fact that you HAD such means with you can show a jury of latte-sipping ninnies that you are not, contrary to popular progressive thinking :barf: , some blood-thirsty nutjob.

[Timulator]

Everyone.....especially those who carry firearms concealed.....needs to carry O.C. (pepper spray) No exceptions. 5.3mm SHU's out of a 2oz. container would put Godzilla out of action for 15-30 minutes.

I've carried OC-10 for years, in size B (OC10-4F) as seen at: http://www.counterassault.com/Law_En...forcement.html. I'd carry it more religiously if I went with smaller Size E (OC10-2F).

These are 10% OC, 2.0m SHU. The Fox Labs stuff is 5.3m SHU?! Gads! If it's not too far off topic, is Fox Labs considered the most effective from what you've heard? Maybe I'll replace that OC10 sooner than later.

[LAK]

Common thugs are, in the majority, cowards. If there is an immediate consequence of injury they will usually retreat. The real problems are the nuts; whether they be a nut because of mental instability, some obsession, emotionally charged, or well saturated with some substance(s) or a combination of any and all of these.

Of course the defender may not be immediately able to discern the difference in a sudden confrontration. While the fighting mindset aids the defender in prevailing during a fight, a cool head in general makes for better judgement as things are in progress. One of the easiest ways to lose a cool head is to be caught by surprize. Not getting caught by surprize can make for a smoother thought process and better judgement in how far to carry the fight.

[CB3]

" . . . the threat stops when he can't get up to try to hurt you. If he can stand, he can resume trying to hurt you."

Unless of course he has a gun. He can still shoot you while he's on the ground. The threat may not be over just because he drops. Also, he may appear incapacitated, even unconscious, and still get a gun back into action from the ground in a second.

Your obligation as a civilian is to preserve your life, not kill or arrest a perpetrator. You may need to take into account others near you who are defenseless, such as children or wife, and get them out of the area before you, but getting a safe distance away as fast as possible and continuing to watch the scene until authorities arrive might be a good idea.

It ain't over 'til its over. CB3

[Double Naught Spy]

U.F.O. believes it is okay to commit assault with pepper spray after an opponent is not longer a threat, so as to assure that he won't be a threat anytime soon, 15-30 minutes I believe was his time.

If you are going to break the law, why not just go ahead and finalize things. The bad guy will never be a threat if his head is separated from his body by a distance of at least 4 feet. People get over pepper spray after a while and given that the big guy has seen you, maybe knows you, then obviously you are dead meat and he will hunt you down. You don't shake off losing your head by a distance of 4 feet.

Sarcasm off. Assault and murder or not good things to commit. If the threat is down and no longer a threat, you are no longer involved in self defense if you press on the attack.

LAK notes that most bad guys are cowards. This is not a proper way to consider things and it is a value statement that isn't relevant. Bad guys are cowards like the pilots of Stealth Bombers. In short, they wish to get the most benefit possible with enduring the least amount of risk. When such schemes are by Stealth pilots, it is called taking a 'tactical advantage.' It is used by the police, military, bad guys, and even in nature. Lions won't risk the injury of a kick to the face (which can be fatal) from a zebra if there is a dead carcass of a hippo to scavenge. The dead carcass poses less threat to the lion than the zebra.

You can call it being a coward, but it is a tried and true plan and the good guys use it whenever they have the opportunity.

What is relevant? Simple. Bad guys will exploit weakness just like when the lions do hunt. They will prey on the old, young, the infirm, or those singled out who don't have the benefit of the herd for protection, using whatever available resources are available including landforms and camoflage, whenever the opportunity is presented.

[U.F.O.]

Double Naught Spy,

U.F.O. believes it is okay to commit assault with pepper spray after an opponent is no longer a threat

Is that so? That's what you think I believe? Where, exactly, in my post did you get the idea that the BG was no longer a threat? Some a-hole who terribly overmatches you is trying to beat your brains in. You get in a lucky knee to the nutz and have no effective way to rapidly exit. I follow in my post with:

Mr. Mongo is looking like he could shake off the shot you gave him and totally ruin your day

In case interpretation is not one of your strong suits, that quote above doesn't mean that "Mr. Mongo" is unconscious and "is no longer a threat." It means the BG is shaking off the knee and possibly already giving you his most onerous "dead meat" look.
You're outgunned in a street fight with someone who "started" the festivities, not you. There's not a DA in America who would hand an assault charge against you for a shot of pepper spray and a peaceful evacuation from the premises. As long as you didn't do something stupid like stomp his face while he was down after the O.C. and, at THAT time, no longer a threat.

U.F.O.

[DT Guy]

It seems common enough knowledge that there is no handgun round that will reliably stop an attacker with one shot...I would urge you NOT to rely on OC, any OC, to do so.

I've been sprayed and continued fighting in training, and I've sprayed people who took 2oz. in the eyes and kept fleeing/fighting/whatever.

OC is no magic bullet, whatever the brand.


Larry

[U.F.O.]

Good advice DT Guy. Still, when it works, it works well.

U.F.O.

[LAK]

DoubleNaughtSpy,

Actually, they are by and large cowards. This is why they generally target the weak, the old, the infirm, whether in the bodily context or the mental. This does not just apply to robbers. They are also moral cowards, as they fail to resist the impulse to commit immoral acts regardless of what their perceived needs and final objectives are.

The military arm of a nation engaged in a just war has some moral high ground, which in turn is carried by the individuals that make up the fighting arms of that nation. Naturally the concept of the bomber or strike aircraft attempts to maximize the safety of the pilots. For the same reason tanks have armor.

[Mannlicher]

Scott,

I find this all very confusing.

[Ozzieman]

The reasion that it is, is becouse in America today if some one shoots some one in self defence the chances of there lawyers coming to take your home away from you is very high.
SO what do you do?
Make sure that they cant come back to sue you, thats no answer but what do you do?
I have never shot any one and I hope to God that I am never put in that position. But if it ever happnes I will make sure that I and my family are safe from the bad guys.

[Arc Angel]

I know of two occasions where something like this has occurred: In the first instance the attacker was knocked to the ground and momentarily stunned. The defender realized that he'd soon be back up; and (I thought) rather cleverly stomped his shin. Thereafter, the guy didn't get back up; he couldn't because his leg was broken.

In the other situation, lacking pepper spray, the defender grabbed one of his attacker's fingers and broke it off. (That works, too!)

[crashresidue]

OK, Guys - this is my first post on your forum. I'll be nice - YOU be gentle - OK?

Scott asked "where to draw the line" - when you feel SAFE!

I haven't fired a weapon in "anger or fear" in 30 something years. That doesn't mean that I'm not prepared, it just means that, so far - I've been lucky.

"Pepper spray", well thats like CS gas to me - sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. The most memorable thing about "gases" is that it WILL shut down a turbine engine if she eats enough of it. Oh Yea, I LOVE the sound of an "engine out horn!"

If you are un-armed, the best physical response is - immediate! Don't be dumb and mutter "What?" or "Hey!" Start your attack instantly! Like I said, I'm "out of date" but I was taught that the throat is the priority attack area. Even a slight hit there will make him grab for it, then you follow up with a knee in the nads, or a side knee kick that shatters the joint.

What ever you do - don't stop and "catch your breath" in the response - keep doing what ever you have to to keep him from getting back up again! If you pause, then it's "retaliation" if you continue to attack "Honest Officer, he stopped kicking him and then started again" - said the witness.

My three "laws" of carry: 1) Don't carry unless you think you're going to need it (Yea, right!)!
2) NEVER pull it unless you INTEND to use it!
3) NEVER use it unless you intend to kill!

The only time I don't have a weapon on me or close by is when I'm on a commercial flight. They get REALLY upset about that stuff now.

For about $270 US, you can get the NAA mini .22Mag - it's tiny! It fits in pockets - and at point blank range, it'll work wonders!

As that Montana sheriff said: "If you shoot an invader and he falls back out of the house, call me, and I'll help put him back in." Not ALL LEO's are against you - just give them a chance, and an excuse that they can live with.

Anyway, it's a great post - made me THINK - and Lord knows, I don't do enough of that.

Gentle winds,
cr

[Don Gwinn]

If I think he's not stopping (and I don't think the average idiot is going to stop at an armlock) I might let it go, but how does he convince me that he's stopping? If he doesn't convince me, then you're darn right I break the arm.

I'll be screaming for him to stop and calling for help the whole time, though. I want it clearly understood that whatever I do, I do to stop him from hurting people, and if he gets hurt in the process, it's only because that's what had to be done to keep everybody safer.

My CPI training beat into my head the mantra that I take action to "protect the health, well-being, safety and security of everyone involved." However, CPI is designed for people who have some obligation to the person they confront--guards, medical workers, teachers on the job. It doesn't take into account that sometimes you have to choose between the health and safety of good people vs. the health and safety of a bad guy.

Also, I made the decision a long time ago that I don't care if he was a nice guy yesterday or will be tomorrow. If he wants to hurt me, he has to stop.