Best long gun for bear defense... the verdict is in!

brmfan · October 22, 2009, 08:24 PM

I always see discussions about what is the best rifle/ caliber for a defensive long gun in bear country. Well, I was just watching that new show about Alaska State Troopers, and one guy had the unenviable job of checking (by himself) the bear bait stations out in the sticks. If you watch the show, you will have noticed that this agency has the latest and greatest of all equipment at their disposal. So what did he end up choosing for his personal protection against hungry Kodiak brown bears? An 870 stuffed with slugs! I respect the you-know-what out of those folks, so if that's what they rely on then to me that settles the debate!

Mello2u · October 22, 2009, 11:01 PM

I'd rather have a 18.5" barreled Marlin lever action with either a 45-70 loaded up to max or a .450 Marlin loaded with 400 grain hard cast slugs at about 2000 fps.

dreamweaver · October 22, 2009, 11:41 PM

Quote:

I'd rather have a 18.5" barreled Marlin lever action with either a 45-70 loaded up to max

+1

tranks · October 23, 2009, 12:58 AM

i watched that too. i don't remember if they said what they were using for shells.

either way, a 1 oz slug is about 430 grains. so if you get some strong rds, you'll have about the same as the 45-70 anyway.

riggins_83 · October 23, 2009, 01:46 AM

I'd rather have a 18.5" barreled Marlin lever action with either a 45-70 loaded up to max

+2

HiBC · October 23, 2009, 02:04 AM

Not all shotgun slugs are created equal.The old standard,pure soft lead ,common rifled slug is a poor penetrator.When I really needed some to work on Mr Bear,I was disappointed.
Properly loaded,I'll agree his 870 is an OK choice,Words like "Best" always inspire comment.
Seems I recall some form of Cov employees in AK being issued Sako .375 H+H's
It might depend on the moment you need one.

GojuBrian · October 23, 2009, 02:19 AM

Take a "friend" and all you'll need is a pocket .22lr.

.22lr bear defense

1) See bear coming at you and friend

2) Draw your .22lr

3)shoot 'friend' in the thigh

4)leave area asap

Powderman · October 23, 2009, 03:15 AM

Friends, a 1 1/4 oz. slug weighs 547 grains--which is right about the weight of the old 45-70 round. Now, the slug has a muzzle energy of 2805 pounds--which is actually equivalent to the full load of a .45-120 Sharps.

Step up to the 3 inch slug at the same weight, and you're throwing over 3000 lb of energy at Brother Bear. That beats a .45-70 all to hell and gone.

I'll take a semi auto, chambered for 3" slugs, with a CompStock on the back, and Vang-Comped on the front, thank you very much. Actually, for Bro Bear, I believe the ideal arm would be a Saiga 12, loaded with full power slugs and a couple of 10 round mags. If not that, then a Remington 1100 with an 8 round capacity will fit the bill well.

troy_mclure · October 23, 2009, 04:02 AM

i feel safe with my ruger sbh in .44mag, load 'er up hot with 300gr hard cast full wad cutters.

sourdough44 · October 23, 2009, 05:21 AM

375 H&H.

Dutchmano1 · October 23, 2009, 05:57 AM

I've heard soft slugs are poor penetrators as well. What would constitute an excellent high quality slug/excellent high quality penetrator?

Falcon5NZ · October 23, 2009, 06:25 AM

What about those 300 gr jacketed Hornadys with the SST Ballistic Tip

Jimro · October 23, 2009, 06:25 AM

You know the Parks service did a study on long arms for bear country in Alaska a few decades ago, and their choice for "best stopper" was the 458 Win Mag.

Evidently a 500 grain pill at 1950 fps is a good choice.

Jimro

brmfan · October 23, 2009, 06:38 AM

I think the total package is more important than caliber alone. Like Powderman alluded to, speed of follow ups, overall handling, and reliability are key just like any other firearm. I guess my point was when these folks have every kind of gun & catridge imaginable (including those mentioned) at their disposal, it's interesting that they opt for the 870.

Zhillsauditor · October 23, 2009, 07:08 AM

Nuke 'em from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

moosemike · October 23, 2009, 07:51 AM

A 12 gauge Foster style slug would absolutely be my choice. Forget .45-70's, up close and personal the 12 gauge rules.

Al Thompson · October 23, 2009, 08:23 AM

Dutchman, the Brenneke slugs are considered to be very hard. Kent cartridge loads them for a decent price.

crimsondave · October 23, 2009, 08:29 AM

+1 on .375 H&H

bamaranger · October 25, 2009, 12:00 AM

Don't know about Park Service study regards .458. Certainly could have been done.

Have worked w/ one guy who stated he kept a Rem 870 folder on his person when working afoot in Alaska in the early 90's, loaded w/ slugs, but he did not advise load.

During a big oil spill a few years later, a number of NPS LEO were detailed to Alaska to act as bear guards for personnel actually doing the cleanup.
A guy assigned to that detail told me they took 870's which are agency std loaded w/ slugs, again I never thought to inquire regards load. Agency std is 1 oz, 2 3/4 inch, but there may be exceptions in bear country. There is for carry handgun.

.300 Weatherby Mag · October 25, 2009, 12:06 AM

I have family that live in bear country... The preferred weapon is a shotgun with slugs.. Centerfire rifles, a .375 works well and so does a hot .45-70 load from a guide gun... No matter what you guys think, unless it's an extremely lucky shot all a .44 mag will do is make the bear mad... If confronted by a bear, a double rifle .470 nitro express would be my choice....

blhseawa · October 25, 2009, 01:01 AM

+2 .375 H&H Magnum

YMMV

roklok · October 25, 2009, 01:04 AM

The Alaska State Troopers use Brenneke slugs. The soft Foster style are poor performers on large game where penetration is required. Troopers are issued two long guns, an 870 and either an AR-15 or M16. Given those choices, which would you take into the brush in bear country ? Some of the wildlife Troopers do use a variety of different rifles they take from the stockpile of weapons confiscated in wildlife cases. I have a friend who is a wildlife Trooper, he took a Remington 600 .350 Rem Mag to use on duty and I know of another who uses a Pre-64 Model 70 in .338 Win Mag.

Personally, I would agree with those who say 45-70. My favorite 45-70 handloads throw a 405 grain bullet at 2060 FPS, giving 3815 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle and deeper penetration than slugs. This combined with a trim, lightweight lever rifle is a hard combination to beat.

stevelyn · October 25, 2009, 01:14 AM

Quote:

i watched that too. i don't remember if they said what they were using for shells.

AST uses Brennekes same as us.

I've done 3-4 DLP kills in the last 8 years all but one were done with Brenneke slugs. They leave and innie and an outie.

The one I did with a .375 last fall was a complete waste of a good 300 grain Nosler Partition.

Quote:

A 12 gauge Foster style slug would absolutely be my choice. Forget .45-70's, up close and personal the 12 gauge rules.

Fosters are fine for back bears since there isn't as much to them as you think, but you aren't getting me to crawl around in the alder bushes with them for brown bears especially late in the fall after they've fattened up and there is more mass to penetrate. Fosters are nothing more than lead thimbles and flatten out quick.

Quote:

What about those 300 gr jacketed Hornadys with the SST Ballistic Tip

Too frangible. Hardcast is best.

sc928porsche · October 25, 2009, 01:43 AM

I still prefer my 378WBY.

4sixteen · October 25, 2009, 02:34 AM

Famed Alaskan hunting guide Andy Runyan's caliber of choice was the 416 Remington magnum loaded with 300gr Barnes X bullets at 2800+ fps.

October 22, 2009, 08:24 PM	#1
brmfan Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2008 Posts: 557	Best long gun for bear defense... the verdict is in! I always see discussions about what is the best rifle/ caliber for a defensive long gun in bear country. Well, I was just watching that new show about Alaska State Troopers, and one guy had the unenviable job of checking (by himself) the bear bait stations out in the sticks. If you watch the show, you will have noticed that this agency has the latest and greatest of all equipment at their disposal. So what did he end up choosing for his personal protection against hungry Kodiak brown bears? An 870 stuffed with slugs! I respect the you-know-what out of those folks, so if that's what they rely on then to me that settles the debate!

October 22, 2009, 11:01 PM	#2
Mello2u Senior Member Join Date: February 21, 2009 Location: Georgia Posts: 1,424	I'd rather have a 18.5" barreled Marlin lever action with either a 45-70 loaded up to max or a .450 Marlin loaded with 400 grain hard cast slugs at about 2000 fps. __________________ NRA Life Member - Orange Gunsite Member - NRA Certified Pistol Instructor "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." Frederic Bastiat

October 23, 2009, 12:58 AM	#4
tranks Senior Member Join Date: June 22, 2008 Location: MN Posts: 272	i watched that too. i don't remember if they said what they were using for shells. either way, a 1 oz slug is about 430 grains. so if you get some strong rds, you'll have about the same as the 45-70 anyway. __________________ -Mike "Stan, what did I tell you about watching the Osbournes? It's going to make you retarded!" Stan's Mom (south park)

October 23, 2009, 01:46 AM	#5
riggins_83 Senior Member Join Date: January 19, 2009 Location: Wherever I may roam Posts: 1,506	I'd rather have a 18.5" barreled Marlin lever action with either a 45-70 loaded up to max +2 __________________ l've heard police work is dangerous. Yes, that's why l carry a big gun. Couldn't it go off accidentally? l used to have that problem. What did you do about it? l just think about baseball. -Leslie Nielsen

October 23, 2009, 03:15 AM	#8
Powderman Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2001 Location: Washington State Posts: 2,166	Friends, a 1 1/4 oz. slug weighs 547 grains--which is right about the weight of the old 45-70 round. Now, the slug has a muzzle energy of 2805 pounds--which is actually equivalent to the full load of a .45-120 Sharps. Step up to the 3 inch slug at the same weight, and you're throwing over 3000 lb of energy at Brother Bear. That beats a .45-70 all to hell and gone. I'll take a semi auto, chambered for 3" slugs, with a CompStock on the back, and Vang-Comped on the front, thank you very much. Actually, for Bro Bear, I believe the ideal arm would be a Saiga 12, loaded with full power slugs and a couple of 10 round mags. If not that, then a Remington 1100 with an 8 round capacity will fit the bill well. __________________ Hiding in plain sight...

October 23, 2009, 02:04 AM	#6
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,286	Not all shotgun slugs are created equal.The old standard,pure soft lead ,common rifled slug is a poor penetrator.When I really needed some to work on Mr Bear,I was disappointed. Properly loaded,I'll agree his 870 is an OK choice,Words like "Best" always inspire comment. Seems I recall some form of Cov employees in AK being issued Sako .375 H+H's It might depend on the moment you need one.

October 23, 2009, 02:19 AM	#7
GojuBrian Senior Member Join Date: April 16, 2009 Posts: 303	Take a "friend" and all you'll need is a pocket .22lr. .22lr bear defense 1) See bear coming at you and friend 2) Draw your .22lr 3)shoot 'friend' in the thigh 4)leave area asap

October 23, 2009, 04:02 AM	#9
troy_mclure Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2008 Location: gulf of mexico Posts: 2,716	i feel safe with my ruger sbh in .44mag, load 'er up hot with 300gr hard cast full wad cutters. __________________ There is only one tactical principle which is not subject to change. It is to use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wound, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time."

October 23, 2009, 05:21 AM	#10
sourdough44 Senior Member Join Date: October 17, 2007 Location: WI Posts: 621	375 H&H.

October 23, 2009, 05:57 AM	#11
Dutchmano1 Junior Member Join Date: October 21, 2008 Posts: 9	I've heard soft slugs are poor penetrators as well. What would constitute an excellent high quality slug/excellent high quality penetrator?

October 23, 2009, 06:25 AM	#12
Falcon5NZ Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2008 Location: Somewhere North of the Roaring 40's...Just Posts: 275	What about those 300 gr jacketed Hornadys with the SST Ballistic Tip __________________ It is New Zealand's role to send out its bright young men and women to help run the rest of the world. And they go, not hating the country of their birth, but loving it. From this loving base they make their mark on the world. Pro-1080 Poison and proud of it!!

October 23, 2009, 06:25 AM	#13
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	You know the Parks service did a study on long arms for bear country in Alaska a few decades ago, and their choice for "best stopper" was the 458 Win Mag. Evidently a 500 grain pill at 1950 fps is a good choice. Jimro __________________ Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.

October 23, 2009, 06:38 AM	#14
brmfan Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2008 Posts: 557	I think the total package is more important than caliber alone. Like Powderman alluded to, speed of follow ups, overall handling, and reliability are key just like any other firearm. I guess my point was when these folks have every kind of gun & catridge imaginable (including those mentioned) at their disposal, it's interesting that they opt for the 870.

October 23, 2009, 07:08 AM	#15
Zhillsauditor Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 2008 Posts: 635	Nuke 'em from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

October 23, 2009, 07:51 AM	#16
moosemike Senior Member Join Date: July 4, 2009 Location: Lebanon PA Posts: 535	A 12 gauge Foster style slug would absolutely be my choice. Forget .45-70's, up close and personal the 12 gauge rules. __________________ et cognoscetis veritatem et veritas liberabit vos

October 23, 2009, 08:23 AM	#17
Al Thompson Staff Alumnus Join Date: May 2, 1999 Location: South Carolina Posts: 3,611	Dutchman, the Brenneke slugs are considered to be very hard. Kent cartridge loads them for a decent price. __________________ http://www.scfirearms.org/

October 23, 2009, 08:29 AM	#18
crimsondave Senior Member Join Date: September 30, 2009 Location: North Augusta, SC Posts: 490	+1 on .375 H&H

October 25, 2009, 12:00 AM	#19
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,308	NPS bear defense Don't know about Park Service study regards .458. Certainly could have been done. Have worked w/ one guy who stated he kept a Rem 870 folder on his person when working afoot in Alaska in the early 90's, loaded w/ slugs, but he did not advise load. During a big oil spill a few years later, a number of NPS LEO were detailed to Alaska to act as bear guards for personnel actually doing the cleanup. A guy assigned to that detail told me they took 870's which are agency std loaded w/ slugs, again I never thought to inquire regards load. Agency std is 1 oz, 2 3/4 inch, but there may be exceptions in bear country. There is for carry handgun.

October 25, 2009, 12:06 AM	#20
.300 Weatherby Mag Senior Member Join Date: September 6, 2008 Posts: 1,777	I have family that live in bear country... The preferred weapon is a shotgun with slugs.. Centerfire rifles, a .375 works well and so does a hot .45-70 load from a guide gun... No matter what you guys think, unless it's an extremely lucky shot all a .44 mag will do is make the bear mad... If confronted by a bear, a double rifle .470 nitro express would be my choice....

October 25, 2009, 01:01 AM	#21
blhseawa Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2008 Location: Des Moines, WA Posts: 220	When I hunt Alaska ... +2 .375 H&H Magnum YMMV __________________ Buy and hold is my method of gun ownership! Last edited by blhseawa; October 25, 2009 at 01:02 AM. Reason: spelling

October 25, 2009, 01:04 AM	#22
roklok Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2008 Location: Fort Yukon, Alaska Posts: 735	The Alaska State Troopers use Brenneke slugs. The soft Foster style are poor performers on large game where penetration is required. Troopers are issued two long guns, an 870 and either an AR-15 or M16. Given those choices, which would you take into the brush in bear country ? Some of the wildlife Troopers do use a variety of different rifles they take from the stockpile of weapons confiscated in wildlife cases. I have a friend who is a wildlife Trooper, he took a Remington 600 .350 Rem Mag to use on duty and I know of another who uses a Pre-64 Model 70 in .338 Win Mag. Personally, I would agree with those who say 45-70. My favorite 45-70 handloads throw a 405 grain bullet at 2060 FPS, giving 3815 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle and deeper penetration than slugs. This combined with a trim, lightweight lever rifle is a hard combination to beat.

October 25, 2009, 01:43 AM	#24
sc928porsche Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 2008 Location: now living in alabama Posts: 2,433	I still prefer my 378WBY. __________________ No such thing as a stupid question. What is stupid is not asking it.

October 25, 2009, 02:34 AM	#25
4sixteen Senior Member Join Date: March 7, 2009 Location: Up North Posts: 145	Famed Alaskan hunting guide Andy Runyan's caliber of choice was the 416 Remington magnum loaded with 300gr Barnes X bullets at 2800+ fps.