Boxing as a martial art

seeker_two · November 23, 2002, 02:36 AM

I've seen a lot of discussion on a lot of different martial arts, but I've only seen one thread where boxing is mentioned.

Is boxing (non-Marquis-of-Queenbury-rules) an effective martial art for SD? Is it effective against other styles? What are its strengths & weaknesses?

I've taken two styles of Karate (Shotokan & Shorin-ryu), but boxing has always held interest for me. Is it worth trying?

Thanks in advance...

Santino · November 23, 2002, 03:22 AM

Yes.........learn to box and you will most certainly seperate yourself from the sheep. I don't think it would be effective against the hybrid mixed martial artist in UFC but it is most definitly something to add to your arsinal.

I have been boxing for close to 25 yrs and have only had to use my abilitys a few times as an adult and believe me it's over in a blink of the eye.

The look of suprise in someones face when you have the ability to keep your head in there and avoid blows is quite intimidating when and if you have to fight.

It's a great workout as well ..........give it a shot!

Coronach · November 23, 2002, 11:22 AM

Its biggest advantage is probably its ability to teach you how to take a punch (or punches) and keep in the fight. There's nothing more disconcerting than punching a guy in the head really really hard and have him just get even more POed.

Mike

KSFreeman · November 23, 2002, 01:49 PM

My Mexican clients turned me on to boxing. Boxing keeps you lean and mean. Plus, if you hit me in the face, you only make me prettier.

hdm25 · November 23, 2002, 02:53 PM

I've always considered boxing a legitimate and very effective martial art. Emphasis on simple hand techniques, footwork, distance, and physical conditioning is hard to beat. Being able to take a hit is a prerequisite of being a good fighter and SO MANY martial arts schools never even let any of their students do more than light contact. Getting hit is more a function of an accident than legitimate training in these schools.

Hell, take boxing over any regular martial art...you'll probably get more out of it...and this is from someone with 16 years in oriental martial arts.

mons-meg · November 23, 2002, 05:10 PM

The Kali school I went to had "traditional" Western boxing class on Mondays, with jump ropes and everything. Dovetails nicely when you see how much of the modern (20th century) American boxing borrows from Filipino Panantukan, which we did on Tuesdays.

American boxing also helps you cross train with Muay Thai. IMO the better MMA type school will include a boxing curriculum.

gryphon · November 23, 2002, 07:31 PM

Anything that seperate you from the group known as the "flailing idiots" is a step up in my opinion. Boxing is good because they teach you reaction to situations, to go on instinct. It also goes a long way on teaching the right wa to punch, which in and of it self is a very under rated skill.

Ifa punch is thrown correctly, there will be very few that can take it, especially bare handed.

Glock40 · November 24, 2002, 04:27 PM

I asked Rickson Gracie the same question. He had incredible respect for boxers. More than the traditional martial arts. He did point out the downside of boxing training. The human brain is not meant to consistently take the pounding you will receive as a boxer long term.

Makes sense to me. Boxing is a costly, yet effective standing art. Of course, standing skills are 1/2 of your martial arts requirement. You have to know how to grapple to be complete.

hdm25 · November 24, 2002, 11:32 PM

"I asked Rickson Gracie the same question. He had incredible respect for boxers. More than the traditional martial arts. He did point out the downside of boxing training. The human brain is not meant to consistently take the pounding you will receive as a boxer long term.

And I suppose Rickson thought it was perfectly natural for the human brain to be deprived of oxygen from being choked out time after time...

Glock40 · November 25, 2002, 11:14 AM

hdm, there is a big difference between the shock of a punch to the human brain and the effect of a choke.

Several medical doctors have determined that there were no damaging side effects to being "choked out" in a judo choke. It is an established fact that too many hits to the head is damaging. Football, soccer, and boxing all have this known problem.

Besides, haven't you heard? You tap before you pass out.

kungfool · November 25, 2002, 12:44 PM

Just about everyone should learn at least the basics of boxing and if possible, train at least to some degree to hone those basics. Boxing teaches good footwork, strong stances and some devastating strikes. It as mentioned, if properly trained, teaches one the realities of dealing with jolting strikes to the body and head.

Add to this that it is comparitively easy to learn than many martial arts, that since the techniques are more refined, a practiotner will develope adequate skills at a quicker pace than most martial arts progress.

Though it has limited applications, one may well still prevail against a common ruffian, especially when the aspiring pugilist is also schooled to watch for many of the common "dirty tricks" employed by people thugs who don't make the commitment to really defend themselves as opposed to simply employing a good "sucker punch" .

"A closed fist cannot shake a hand"...David Allen Coe

igor · November 25, 2002, 04:09 PM

Western Boxing is definitely an art in its own right and a great one too. It's ergonomic, economic, pure and simple and gets the job done very well.

It complements any other art perfectly, as mentioned by many; to cover the essential in SD, boxing itself needs some complementing. Grappling, weapons and groundwork need to be covered as well, to a minimum. The movement, angles, distances and timing technique in boxing leave nothing to be desired, not to mention the conditioning part. Good common sense is required, though, with the constant head contact, to avoid too much exposure to that.

The karate style I practice has kihon practice in hook punching ("mawashizuki"), use of the higher stance and cover for mid-distance work ("jodangamae") in addition to the usual, wider and lower karate footwork and shielding ("chudangamae" or "hanmigamae") and striking of more like the competition karate persuasion. Full contact sparring is highly recommended, if only to get the feel of it.

Normal sparring in the style is non-competition-like, sensible contact stuff with no prohibited technique: it usually ends in the ground, low kicking and striking to all distances is prominent. Hardening of striking areas and learning proper contact when striking is taught; makiwaras, heavy bags and focus mitts are used extensively. Very few people get enthusiastic about real tameshiwari, though - breaking things isn't obligatory.

I took a while of regular boxing practice at a local club to learn from the specialists and still benefit from the experience, both MA- and SD-wise. My trainer was approaching 70 at the time, I was 23, with seven years of good training in store and 20 kilos bigger than him. I never scored a single good hit on him, and Lord knows I tried. But, to highlight the risks involved, he got rapidly demented and ended up with a stroke all in one winter season's downhill. Too many hits in the head during sixty years in the gym.

Every now and then I still do some German-style school boxing and light sparring to see to that the eyes remain open when being attacked. It definitely works and I recommend at least this approach to any more or less "traditional" martial artist. No style is complete without the experience of full contact and learning to be... well... somewhat comfortable with it.

madgrad · November 25, 2002, 10:42 PM

Boxing is the most underrated street effective Martial Art next to Judo. If you can get good boxing training go for it. The money, skills, and experiance are well worth it.

wingnutx · November 25, 2002, 11:20 PM

I started boxing at the same time I started kenpo, and boxing made much more of an immediate (positive) impact. It's a great basis for fighting skills in general, and will train you to be effective in a fight very quickly.

Go for it. Just getting in the ring and sparring regularly will give you a huge advantage over the average schmo.

Shmackey · November 26, 2002, 12:07 AM

Quote:

And I suppose Rickson thought it was perfectly natural for the human brain to be deprived of oxygen from being choked out time after time...

You can't tap out of an overhand right.

Boxing is tremendously effective if you are a boxer. In other words, if you really know what you're doing.

It's very true that striking is an ineffective way of ending a street fight. And it's a "high-commitment" approach (do it right or you're in a great position to get hammered). That said, if you really know how to hit someone, you can end a fight in a hurry. Be prepared to wear someone else's blood; if you do it right, it happens.

Bahadur · November 26, 2002, 02:14 PM

Quote:

hdm, there is a big difference between the shock of a punch to the human brain and the effect of a choke.

Several medical doctors have determined that there were no damaging side effects to being "choked out" in a judo choke. It is an established fact that too many hits to the head is damaging. Football, soccer, and boxing all have this known problem.

Besides, haven't you heard? You tap before you pass out.

Boxing is a great fighting system, but unfortunately the modern sports boxing does have some very bad side effects such as brain damage and retinal injuries.

I think that the classic boxing techniques (those based on wearing no gloves) are in many ways more effective for self-defense, and safer to practice, than the modern techniques with gloves that allow a boxer to continue to punch (and punch full force) hard objects like a skull without serious injuries to his knuckles.

LASur5r · November 26, 2002, 08:46 PM

I used to be a rock climber during college, we had stayed out in Joshua Tree Forest for three days climbing and camping up in the rocks so we were pretty raunchy when we stopped at a local diner.
Long story short:...my buddy was in Golden Gloves Boxing, the locals took exception to him, and another climber who had long hair at the time.The five guys that he knocked out (mostly one punch jabs) were totally senseless. Took me longer to fight 4 guys outside the diner.

Another guy...we had just gotten out of Basic after having our self-defense (8 hours?), we stopped at a local bar, gotten into a barroom brawl with other guys, he got the stuffing beat out of him. We didn't do a heck of a lot better, but when we regrouped after reminding him that he had been Golden Gloves champion for three years, we won the fight then. (He forgot the m.a. and used boxing and beat a whole bunch of bodies.)

Got about another five stories, but I'm a believer in well-trained boxers being good m.a. folks.

**4V50 Gary** · November 29, 2002, 02:42 PM

My father was a martial artist but when it came to delivering punches, it was pure boxing. A one shot KO virtually all of his bar fights except for his last one. That one he decided to break the man's nose, knock out his teeth, blacken his eyes first. I also think he broke the guy's jaw. Glad I don't hang around bars like my pop did.

pbarrick · December 5, 2002, 12:25 PM

Boxing definitely has an advantage when it comes to conditioning and the appropriate mindset for combat. It also gets you used to receiving blows. And it's important to know boxing because it's one of the few pervasive martial arts in America and, therefore, the one your most likely to encounter in the street. It's good to know how to defend against it.

For self-defense, I prefer open-handed blows and those will be directed to the head. Punching to the body isn't as effective when you're in the street (as opposed to the ring). I'm not saying that it can't be effective. I'm just pointing out that the likelihood of injury to your hand is greater with boxing blows--no wraps, no gloves. Also, Mike Tyson broke his hand in a fight on the street and he's got a lot more experience with boxing than most of us will when it comes to practical use.

hdm25 · December 5, 2002, 01:18 PM

Human bone goes against human bone with the strength of a professional boxer and bone on one side or the other will break...just physics in action.

I agree that open-hand techniques are probably best overall. I will rarely strike with a closed fist against a bony part of the human body, myself.

I would NOT want to take a body shot from Mike Tyson, though. I've seen video of him delivering mid-level hooks to 70# heavy bags that were just amazing. While on the subject, Tyson should have gotten out long ago while he was still a legend. He is rapidly becoming a has-been and has been something of a laughing-stock for a while, anyway, due to his exploits outside of the ring. Oh, well, to each his own.

November 23, 2002, 02:36 AM	#1
seeker_two Senior Member Join Date: August 31, 2002 Location: Deep in the Heart of the Lone Star State (TX) Posts: 2,169	Boxing as a martial art I've seen a lot of discussion on a lot of different martial arts, but I've only seen one thread where boxing is mentioned. Is boxing (non-Marquis-of-Queenbury-rules) an effective martial art for SD? Is it effective against other styles? What are its strengths & weaknesses? I've taken two styles of Karate (Shotokan & Shorin-ryu), but boxing has always held interest for me. Is it worth trying? Thanks in advance... __________________ Proud member of Gun Culture 2.0......

November 23, 2002, 03:22 AM	#2
Santino Member Join Date: November 10, 2002 Posts: 99	Yes.........learn to box and you will most certainly seperate yourself from the sheep. I don't think it would be effective against the hybrid mixed martial artist in UFC but it is most definitly something to add to your arsinal. I have been boxing for close to 25 yrs and have only had to use my abilitys a few times as an adult and believe me it's over in a blink of the eye. The look of suprise in someones face when you have the ability to keep your head in there and avoid blows is quite intimidating when and if you have to fight. It's a great workout as well ..........give it a shot! __________________ #####Santino#####

November 23, 2002, 11:22 AM	#3
Coronach Senior Member Join Date: March 25, 1999 Posts: 3,147	Its biggest advantage is probably its ability to teach you how to take a punch (or punches) and keep in the fight. There's nothing more disconcerting than punching a guy in the head really really hard and have him just get even more POed. Mike __________________ The axe bites into the door, ripping a hole in one panel. The maniac puts his face into the hole, cackling gleefully, "Here's Johnny...erk." "And here's Smith and Wesson," murmurs Coronach, Mozambiquing six rounds of .357 into the critter at a range of three feet. -Lawdog "True pacifism is the finest form of manliness. But if a man comes up to you and cuts your hand off, you don't just offer him the other one. Not if you want to go on playing the piano, you don't." -Sam Peckinpah "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert Heinlein

November 23, 2002, 01:49 PM	#4
KSFreeman Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2001 Location: Lafayette, Indiana--American-occupied America Posts: 5,418	My Mexican clients turned me on to boxing. Boxing keeps you lean and mean. Plus, if you hit me in the face, you only make me prettier. __________________ "Arguments of policy must give way to a constitutional command." Payton v. New York, 445 U.S. 573, 602 (1980).

November 23, 2002, 05:10 PM	#6
mons-meg Senior Member Join Date: May 13, 2002 Location: North Central OK Posts: 206	The Kali school I went to had "traditional" Western boxing class on Mondays, with jump ropes and everything. Dovetails nicely when you see how much of the modern (20th century) American boxing borrows from Filipino Panantukan, which we did on Tuesdays. American boxing also helps you cross train with Muay Thai. IMO the better MMA type school will include a boxing curriculum. __________________ What if the Hokey Pokey really is what it's all about!?!?

November 23, 2002, 02:53 PM	#5
hdm25 Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2000 Location: Paragould, AR Posts: 263	I've always considered boxing a legitimate and very effective martial art. Emphasis on simple hand techniques, footwork, distance, and physical conditioning is hard to beat. Being able to take a hit is a prerequisite of being a good fighter and SO MANY martial arts schools never even let any of their students do more than light contact. Getting hit is more a function of an accident than legitimate training in these schools. Hell, take boxing over any regular martial art...you'll probably get more out of it...and this is from someone with 16 years in oriental martial arts.

November 23, 2002, 07:31 PM	#7
gryphon Senior Member Join Date: November 21, 2000 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,069	Anything that seperate you from the group known as the "flailing idiots" is a step up in my opinion. Boxing is good because they teach you reaction to situations, to go on instinct. It also goes a long way on teaching the right wa to punch, which in and of it self is a very under rated skill. Ifa punch is thrown correctly, there will be very few that can take it, especially bare handed. __________________ Your suffering will be legendary, even in HELL!! --- PinHead, HellRaiser 2

November 24, 2002, 04:27 PM	#8
Glock40 Senior Member Join Date: August 10, 2002 Posts: 111	I asked Rickson Gracie the same question. He had incredible respect for boxers. More than the traditional martial arts. He did point out the downside of boxing training. The human brain is not meant to consistently take the pounding you will receive as a boxer long term. Makes sense to me. Boxing is a costly, yet effective standing art. Of course, standing skills are 1/2 of your martial arts requirement. You have to know how to grapple to be complete.

November 24, 2002, 11:32 PM	#9
hdm25 Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2000 Location: Paragould, AR Posts: 263	"I asked Rickson Gracie the same question. He had incredible respect for boxers. More than the traditional martial arts. He did point out the downside of boxing training. The human brain is not meant to consistently take the pounding you will receive as a boxer long term. And I suppose Rickson thought it was perfectly natural for the human brain to be deprived of oxygen from being choked out time after time...

November 25, 2002, 11:14 AM	#10
Glock40 Senior Member Join Date: August 10, 2002 Posts: 111	hdm, there is a big difference between the shock of a punch to the human brain and the effect of a choke. Several medical doctors have determined that there were no damaging side effects to being "choked out" in a judo choke. It is an established fact that too many hits to the head is damaging. Football, soccer, and boxing all have this known problem. Besides, haven't you heard? You tap before you pass out.

November 25, 2002, 12:44 PM	#11
kungfool Member Join Date: June 8, 2002 Location: heartland Posts: 76	Just about everyone should learn at least the basics of boxing and if possible, train at least to some degree to hone those basics. Boxing teaches good footwork, strong stances and some devastating strikes. It as mentioned, if properly trained, teaches one the realities of dealing with jolting strikes to the body and head. Add to this that it is comparitively easy to learn than many martial arts, that since the techniques are more refined, a practiotner will develope adequate skills at a quicker pace than most martial arts progress. Though it has limited applications, one may well still prevail against a common ruffian, especially when the aspiring pugilist is also schooled to watch for many of the common "dirty tricks" employed by people thugs who don't make the commitment to really defend themselves as opposed to simply employing a good "sucker punch" . "A closed fist cannot shake a hand"...David Allen Coe

November 25, 2002, 04:09 PM	#12
igor Senior Member Join Date: August 27, 2002 Location: Kalifornistan Posts: 155	Western Boxing is definitely an art in its own right and a great one too. It's ergonomic, economic, pure and simple and gets the job done very well. It complements any other art perfectly, as mentioned by many; to cover the essential in SD, boxing itself needs some complementing. Grappling, weapons and groundwork need to be covered as well, to a minimum. The movement, angles, distances and timing technique in boxing leave nothing to be desired, not to mention the conditioning part. Good common sense is required, though, with the constant head contact, to avoid too much exposure to that. The karate style I practice has kihon practice in hook punching ("mawashizuki"), use of the higher stance and cover for mid-distance work ("jodangamae") in addition to the usual, wider and lower karate footwork and shielding ("chudangamae" or "hanmigamae") and striking of more like the competition karate persuasion. Full contact sparring is highly recommended, if only to get the feel of it. Normal sparring in the style is non-competition-like, sensible contact stuff with no prohibited technique: it usually ends in the ground, low kicking and striking to all distances is prominent. Hardening of striking areas and learning proper contact when striking is taught; makiwaras, heavy bags and focus mitts are used extensively. Very few people get enthusiastic about real tameshiwari, though - breaking things isn't obligatory. I took a while of regular boxing practice at a local club to learn from the specialists and still benefit from the experience, both MA- and SD-wise. My trainer was approaching 70 at the time, I was 23, with seven years of good training in store and 20 kilos bigger than him. I never scored a single good hit on him, and Lord knows I tried. But, to highlight the risks involved, he got rapidly demented and ended up with a stroke all in one winter season's downhill. Too many hits in the head during sixty years in the gym. Every now and then I still do some German-style school boxing and light sparring to see to that the eyes remain open when being attacked. It definitely works and I recommend at least this approach to any more or less "traditional" martial artist. No style is complete without the experience of full contact and learning to be... well... somewhat comfortable with it. __________________ Good karateka I have known were intelligent, original, capable, unpredictable, aggressive, brave, and dangerous. Most had a dark side. Daily practice for decades at hurting other people does not make liberals. John Farnam quoting a friend, Feb. 2004

November 25, 2002, 10:42 PM	#13
madgrad Member Join Date: July 19, 2001 Posts: 58	Boxing is the most underrated street effective Martial Art next to Judo. If you can get good boxing training go for it. The money, skills, and experiance are well worth it.

November 25, 2002, 11:20 PM	#14
wingnutx Member Join Date: September 7, 2001 Location: Phoenix, Arizona, USA Posts: 93	I started boxing at the same time I started kenpo, and boxing made much more of an immediate (positive) impact. It's a great basis for fighting skills in general, and will train you to be effective in a fight very quickly. Go for it. Just getting in the ring and sparring regularly will give you a huge advantage over the average schmo. __________________ wingnutx TANSTAAFL If you choose to carry a pistol, you relinquish your ability to defend your honor from common scumbags.-GRD, thefiringline.com

November 26, 2002, 08:46 PM	#17
LASur5r Junior member Join Date: July 20, 2000 Location: pasadena,california,America Posts: 542	Boxing as an M.A.? I used to be a rock climber during college, we had stayed out in Joshua Tree Forest for three days climbing and camping up in the rocks so we were pretty raunchy when we stopped at a local diner. Long story short:...my buddy was in Golden Gloves Boxing, the locals took exception to him, and another climber who had long hair at the time.The five guys that he knocked out (mostly one punch jabs) were totally senseless. Took me longer to fight 4 guys outside the diner. Another guy...we had just gotten out of Basic after having our self-defense (8 hours?), we stopped at a local bar, gotten into a barroom brawl with other guys, he got the stuffing beat out of him. We didn't do a heck of a lot better, but when we regrouped after reminding him that he had been Golden Gloves champion for three years, we won the fight then. (He forgot the m.a. and used boxing and beat a whole bunch of bodies.) Got about another five stories, but I'm a believer in well-trained boxers being good m.a. folks.

November 29, 2002, 02:42 PM	#18
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,838	My father was a martial artist but when it came to delivering punches, it was pure boxing. A one shot KO virtually all of his bar fights except for his last one. That one he decided to break the man's nose, knock out his teeth, blacken his eyes first. I also think he broke the guy's jaw. Glad I don't hang around bars like my pop did. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

December 5, 2002, 12:25 PM	#19
pbarrick Member Join Date: September 19, 2002 Location: Baton Rouge, LA Posts: 72	Boxing definitely has an advantage when it comes to conditioning and the appropriate mindset for combat. It also gets you used to receiving blows. And it's important to know boxing because it's one of the few pervasive martial arts in America and, therefore, the one your most likely to encounter in the street. It's good to know how to defend against it. For self-defense, I prefer open-handed blows and those will be directed to the head. Punching to the body isn't as effective when you're in the street (as opposed to the ring). I'm not saying that it can't be effective. I'm just pointing out that the likelihood of injury to your hand is greater with boxing blows--no wraps, no gloves. Also, Mike Tyson broke his hand in a fight on the street and he's got a lot more experience with boxing than most of us will when it comes to practical use. __________________ Paul Barrick Instructor, OPS HQ Options for Personal Security Cutting Edge Training Across the U.S.A. http://www.optionsforpersonalsecurity.com Toll Free 1.877.636.4677

December 5, 2002, 01:18 PM	#20
hdm25 Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2000 Location: Paragould, AR Posts: 263	Human bone goes against human bone with the strength of a professional boxer and bone on one side or the other will break...just physics in action. I agree that open-hand techniques are probably best overall. I will rarely strike with a closed fist against a bony part of the human body, myself. I would NOT want to take a body shot from Mike Tyson, though. I've seen video of him delivering mid-level hooks to 70# heavy bags that were just amazing. While on the subject, Tyson should have gotten out long ago while he was still a legend. He is rapidly becoming a has-been and has been something of a laughing-stock for a while, anyway, due to his exploits outside of the ring. Oh, well, to each his own.