June 5, 2009, 03:06 PM | #76 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 14, 2007
Location: Central NC
Posts: 1,424
|
While I dont really like the idea of officers being able to CCW places that I cant, I can certainly understand why they're allowed to. Especially if their department or city has a policy that claims that they are always on duty, even after hours. Its my hope that all officers who do this keep on top of their training and qualifications.
Its the same for firefighters and EMT's. If my fire pager goes off, even when I'm at home after my shift, I am still required to respond within a fairly short time limit. Failing to do so could get me reprimanded or even cause me to loose my job. I get to drive a type-6 brush truck home after work, and some might see this as a perk, but its because somtimes I'm called out after hours. In cases like that I see the carrying a badge and gun 24/7 not so much as an extra right, but more like an added responsibility.
__________________
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. -George Orwell |
June 5, 2009, 03:12 PM | #77 | |
Junior member
Join Date: January 24, 2005
Location: SW Louisiana
Posts: 2,289
|
Quote:
|
|
June 5, 2009, 03:33 PM | #78 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 29, 2006
Location: Northern Illinois
Posts: 515
|
Quote:
__________________
bob Disclaimers: I am not a lawyer, cop, soldier, gunsmith, politician, plumber, electrician, or a professional practitioner of many of the other things I comment on in this forum. |
|
June 5, 2009, 04:01 PM | #79 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 19, 2004
Posts: 492
|
If you are required to be on duty at all times,
and required to perform the functions of your job at all times, then you should be paid 24/7/365.
The dude at Mickey D's isn't required to make me a hamburger if I'm hungry. Cops should not be required to be cops when they're off the clock. Working is a very, very simple business arrangement. I'm trading you my time for your money. If I ain't getting paid, you ain't getting any work. If I showed up at work one morning and the building was on fire, I'd clock in before I put out the fire. And if my company refused to pay for any overtime not previously authorized by management, then let that sucker burn. I'm not getting paid, so it isn't my problem. The flip side is also true. The fact that your employers are screwing you out of free work shouldn't grant you any rights or privileges that your fellow citizens, all equal before the law, don't get. And if you try to pull me over on a Saturday morning when you're not at work, I won't be stopping for you. Because you stop being a cop the instant they stop paying you to be one. Anything else is you choosing to donate free labor to the city, county, or state... which isn't my, or anyone else's, problem. Get a better deal. Don't ask for more rights. You are not special. You have a job. Be glad. Lots of people don't. --Shannon |
June 5, 2009, 04:19 PM | #80 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 8, 2006
Location: Eastern, TN
Posts: 1,236
|
Quote:
If it is a Statutory requirement, please elaborate, if it is merely a condition of employment then you are definitely accepting a raw deal.
__________________
WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska - |
|
June 5, 2009, 04:54 PM | #81 | ||
Junior member
Join Date: January 3, 2006
Location: Indpls
Posts: 1,159
|
Quote:
Quote:
to further try and make you understand...I'm a firefighter and a paramedic (different from a cop yes but the reasoning is exactly the same) and I'm driving "off duty" and witness a car crash, guess what? I'm pulling over and helping that person because on average there's a 5,6,7,8 minute response time for "on duty" personnel to get there. And those minutes CAN mean life or death, trust me I've seen it. Cops are the same way. Answer this question for me: You're getting held up and the only person around is an off duty cop in his take home car, you'd be ok with him not helping? I already know your answer. Last edited by #18indycolts; June 5, 2009 at 05:00 PM. |
||
June 5, 2009, 05:53 PM | #82 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 14, 2007
Location: Central NC
Posts: 1,424
|
Quote:
__________________
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. -George Orwell |
|
June 5, 2009, 06:02 PM | #83 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 9, 2008
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 283
|
The NRA has fought for gun rights for over 100 years.Why would it now fight to take anyones right away?
|
June 5, 2009, 06:47 PM | #84 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 668
|
Quote:
|
|
June 5, 2009, 07:10 PM | #85 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: January 8, 2006
Location: Eastern, TN
Posts: 1,236
|
An interesting article was found here; "http://www.wisegeek.com/does-an-off-duty-police-officer-have-authority.htm"
Quote:
Quote:
Also interesting was the forums on Officer.com Most LE there are decidedly "Off Duty" on their days off. But if there is a Legal duty to act (off shift) by a LEO please site a statute, I would really like to read it.
__________________
WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska - |
||
June 5, 2009, 07:57 PM | #86 | |
Junior member
Join Date: January 3, 2006
Location: Indpls
Posts: 1,159
|
Quote:
|
|
June 5, 2009, 08:12 PM | #87 |
Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: June 29, 2000
Location: Rupert, Idaho
Posts: 9,660
|
Does anyone besides me think we are arguing in circles?
|
June 5, 2009, 08:28 PM | #88 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 8, 2006
Location: Eastern, TN
Posts: 1,236
|
Quote:
I do not advocate that an officers exemption should be limited, but I would like to know where the "duty" originates. Maybe if some understood the impetus, there might be less to argue...IMHO.
__________________
WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska - |
|
June 5, 2009, 09:23 PM | #89 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 11, 2008
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 1,014
|
As soon as I take police action I am back on duty at overtime rate. Last month when there was a man with gun call I handled off duty I was immediately on duty.
We aren't talking in circles. The police bashers who don't understand the concept of duty keep coming up with more and more ways to not understand that duty does not punch a time clock. |
June 5, 2009, 09:25 PM | #90 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 24, 2005
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 2,903
|
Quote:
|
|
June 5, 2009, 09:44 PM | #91 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 16, 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 11,061
|
Quote:
Neighter my Oath as an officer of the UNITED STATES MILITARY or my oath as a Law Enforcement Officer with the Anchorage Police Department I may violate a law or regulation, but I will never violate my oath of office.
__________________
Kraig Stuart CPT USAR Ret USAMU Sniper School Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071 |
|
June 5, 2009, 11:46 PM | #92 | |||||
Senior Member
Join Date: January 8, 2006
Location: Eastern, TN
Posts: 1,236
|
Quote:
If you are in your jurisdiction, and are being compensated, then you are "Working" And I see nothing wrong with that. I think the confusion, and some of the angst comes from the fact that you are allowed to carry "outside" your jurisdiction. Granted, if you are transporting or picking up a prisoner, guarding an official, etc. then it would be logical for you to be accommodated. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
But what purpose does it serve for you to carry outside your jurisdiction? (other than the reason anyone else would) If you are a sworn officer in Chicago, and travel to Miami, are you gonna be allowed to act with legal authority? Maybe This is where I'm missing something, does this nationwide "reciprocity" also extend to your authority? Quote:
I have asked relevant questions, and have pointed to no motes, nor cast any stones. Sometimes, if we can get past the rhetoric, knowledge can lead to understanding. Chill.
__________________
WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska - |
|||||
June 5, 2009, 11:55 PM | #93 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 8, 2006
Location: Eastern, TN
Posts: 1,236
|
Quote:
I came into the game late, and the discussion thus far has not addressed the "reasoning" behind the original question. Perhaps if we were a bit clearer on just why things are the way they are, it would be a bit more logical than it appears.
__________________
WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska - |
|
June 6, 2009, 12:19 AM | #94 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 24, 2005
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 2,903
|
Quote:
|
|
June 6, 2009, 12:51 AM | #95 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: October 16, 2006
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 269
|
Quote:
Quote:
But I would advise you don't come to CT and try refusing to stop for a trooper on that Saturday morning. Me, you don't have to worry about. I don't get a take-home car and I'm not conducting a traffic stop in my Hyundai. Back on track with the thread- technically I don't have any exemption from any state law in CT that pertains to legal carry in a banned environment when off-duty. For instance, I can't go waltzing into a grammer school with my handgun. And as Conn Trooper pointed out, I can't decide to go buy an AR-15 that has the wrong number of dreaded evil features on it that are banned in CT just because I'm a cop. I have to follow the same laws. LEOSA does allow me to carry in other states which is indeed a great perk. I'm grateful to have it. But I am also of the mind that the patchwork system in place sucks for any law abiding citizen who wishes to have the means of self-defense. LEOSA barely passed in Congress and it was a long hard battle to get it through. Kind of similar to the battles we are currently involved in on gun rights. Any law that streamlines the issue is a step in the right direction. Last edited by 209; June 6, 2009 at 01:00 AM. |
||
June 6, 2009, 11:45 AM | #96 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: January 8, 2006
Location: Eastern, TN
Posts: 1,236
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska - |
||
June 6, 2009, 02:47 PM | #97 |
Member
Join Date: April 28, 2007
Posts: 83
|
Outcast, the article you quoted is just plain false (at least in my state). The statute authorizing law enforcement officers to engage in law enforcement activity does not require uniforms or punching a time clock. If it did, it would really screw a salaried, plain-clothes cop who sets his own schedule.
You can think that the ticket you get or the arrest made is null and void, but that does not make it so. Once he or she identifies themselves as a law enforcement officer, that's it. You can resist or flee if you want to, and you might get found not guilty of that particular charge if he was wearing daisy dukes and clown make-up. The original charge will stand though. Your point about traveling outside of jurisdiction is a very valid one. You and I agree though, this is a right that all law-abiding citizens should have. Instead of working to take it away from one subgroup, private citizens should work to get it themselves. |
June 6, 2009, 02:56 PM | #98 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 12, 2007
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 530
|
The take home car is a giant pain. Its a good thing for the state and the people living and working and passing through, but its a real pain for the Troopers. I have stopped for and been involved in more things off duty than I can remember. It doesn't balance out in the end, we do take a beating stopping for things while using the car. Our patrol area is so large ( I work in the sticks) that off duty cops are your closest back up the majority of the time. The CSP has the numbers ( I can't recall them right now) of how many times off duty Troopers have gotten involved in things. We have to drag the figures out every time the state attempts to take the off duty use of the car away and every time we end up keeping the car because we do so much off duty.
I have to check now because I thought we were exempt from that carrying in restricted places reg by statute. I believe we can carry on school grounds, etc. Maybe its just us and DEP because we are never off duty, now I'm not sure. I would support a national concealed carry law, it would make everything uniform across the US. I see no reason the states can't work out an acceptable level of training (I do think the vast majority of gun owners need more training to carry handguns, just my opinion from going to public ranges and watching people shoot), and licensing to allow a person to carry anywhere in the US. I think there would be some strong resistance from certain states (NJ and Cali. come to mind). |
June 6, 2009, 03:05 PM | #99 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 16, 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 11,061
|
Quote:
Check out the Sturgis Case where they tried the nail a Washington cop for having a gun in a bar and shooting the Hells Angle Dude. The Judge through out the case because of HR 218 and the off duty, out of state officer wasn't drunk.
__________________
Kraig Stuart CPT USAR Ret USAMU Sniper School Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071 |
|
June 6, 2009, 03:17 PM | #100 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 12, 2007
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 530
|
Ok, that makes sense.I never cared about a bar or alcohol and guns because I don't drink, but I have carried on a college campus off duty.
|
|
|