Selling Advice for Borchardt C-93

prm297 · August 4, 2012, 01:11 AM

Hi all,

I recently inherited what I believe to be, after doing some research, a Borchardt C-93. The information on the gun is as follows:

It's marked Waffenfabrik Loewe Berlin over the chamber.
The toggle is marked D.R.P. No 75837
Left side of the barrel has B U G and the number 17223.
The number 43 is on the bottom of the grip, the trigger, the bottom of the magazine, and the shoulder stock lug.
The right side of the barrel reads "System Borchardt Patent"
The stock itself doesn't seem to be matched to the gun in any visible way.

I've posted some pictures so that you can see the condition of the gun and stock. I wanted to see if anyone could give me advice on how much they think this gun is really worth. Also, what is the best way to sell something like this. I've never done this before but I do know enough to recognize the value of this gun and want to make sure that it ends up in the right hands for the right price.

Any advice would greatly be appreciated.

http://flic.kr/p/cKc3Dd
http://flic.kr/p/cKc3Kw
http://flic.kr/p/cKc3Rd
http://flic.kr/p/cKc3Zw
http://flic.kr/p/cKc48s
http://flic.kr/p/cKc4cS
http://flic.kr/p/cKc4ju
http://flic.kr/p/cKc4r7

Scorch · August 4, 2012, 03:00 AM

Definitely a Borchardt C93. Don't know about the shoulder stock, I have never seen an original for a Borchardt, just photos. Last fleeting glimpse of one I saw, the price was into serious money, north of the $30,000 mark. Check out this site, they had one for sale, perhaps they can advise.
http://phoenixinvestmentarms.com/His...rchardtDWM.htm

gyvel · August 4, 2012, 04:37 AM

Agree with scorch. The stock is not the pattern of Borchardt stock that I have seen, but if it fits the gun, it was obviously made for it. As far as value, I also concur with scorch that the value is going to exceed 30k. You have a very early production gun, and the condition is pretty decent.

I bought a Borchardt back in the mid 60s that I eventually sold in 1972 for about a thousand dollars, and it was basically trashed.

You got a nice inheritance. If you decide to keep it for a while, it is only going to keep escalating in value.

mapsjanhere · August 4, 2012, 12:51 PM

As for the best way to sell something like that - a top grade auction. People who pay the price of a decent car for a collectible gun want it in hand to inspect (or have a true professional inspect it if they're phone bidders), and you're not going to get that kind of crowd on gunbroker or at the local gun show.

Winchester_73 · August 4, 2012, 03:30 PM

The gun "sounds" mismatched to me, but even still this design was the first mass produced commercially successful semi auto pistol ever made. On second thought, the one that Scorch provided has two different 5 digit SNs , one on barrel and one on toggle. The gun that he showed us is a different collector category than the gun of the OP. Its a complete cased set, and all original with condition. Although I am sure, the OPs gun is valuable itself. Also remember retailers such as Phoenix investments and Simpson LTD always get more than what most people are able to get. Its what they do.

The borchardt is a very important part of pistol history. Arriving in 1893, this gun was 3 years before the C-96, and about 6 years or so before the luger and the FN 1900. This design also was the inspiration for the Luger pistol. Georg Luger took the toggle action and fit the concept to a better design to invent the Luger pistol aka Parabellum.

I would post this to the Jan Still forum and see what info you can find:

The area of 1900 to 1918 would probably be best. The gun is unusual enough that it does not seem to fit any of their categories lol. Nice piece btw.

http://luger.gunboards.com/forumdisp...s-amp-Holsters

James K · August 5, 2012, 12:48 PM

Here is a picture of a Borchardt with an original stock. The leather holster is attached to the other side. I have no idea who made the stock in the OP's pictures, but it does not resemble any pistol stock I have ever seen, and looks vaguely oriental.

Jim

Webleymkv · August 5, 2012, 10:33 PM

Even if it's mismatched, I'd still think that a gun of that vintage and rarity would be worth thousands, if not tens of thousands, of dollars particularly when it's in as good condition as yours appears to be. Given the potential value of such a gun, I'd be looking into a professional appraisal were it mine (this would also be very helpful for insurance purposes).

prm297 · August 6, 2012, 12:45 AM

Thanks everyone for all the advice, I really appreciate it. I definitely understand now how rare and special this item is! Unfortunately, along with this gun I also inherited a bit of other expenses that need to be taken care of! Furthermore, I have a feeling that this gun will bring a lot more joy in someone else's hands.

That being said, some of you mentioned that the best place to sell this gun would be through professional services or an auction house. Does anyone have any specific recommendations? In particular, I'm now located in the Bay Area. Does anyone have any advice on auction houses or alternative venues that would be appropriate?

As always, any help would be greatly appreciated.

thickice · August 6, 2012, 10:37 AM

I used this auction to dispose of my brother's Remington collection, found him trustworthy and very knowledgeable. He is located in Anaheim CA, just down the road. http://www.littlejohnsauctionservice.com/auctions.html

**Mike Irwin** · August 6, 2012, 10:40 AM

Wow. Pretty spectacular.

As for the stock holster, it appears to be tiger stripe maple. Definitely not a common wood for making the stock holsers for these things.

carguychris · August 6, 2012, 03:57 PM

I agree with the others, particularly W73 and Mike Irwin. Even with the mismatched numbers, this pistol appears exceptional. If I were you, I would use an auctioneer that is world-renowned and is watched by leagues of collectors with very deep pockets.

Although it's out of your area, I would recommend Heritage Auctions in Dallas, TX:

http://historical.ha.com/armsarmor/?...ical-armsarmor

prm297 · August 7, 2012, 01:18 AM

Here is a link to my flickr photo album that has much higher resolution photos. Let me know if there is anything in particular you would like to see close up.

http://flic.kr/ps/26Qd4j

Any additional information gleaned from these photos?

Thanks again for all the help and advice, I really appreciate it.

PetahW · August 7, 2012, 10:52 AM

IMHO, you need to get outside your area of local comfort, and put it in the hands of a world-famous auction house, that can/will realize the maximum return for it - like, James D. Julia , Christie's, Manion's, Sotheby's, Cowan's Auctions, Rock Island Auction Co, etc - all of which have websites (google).

You can send your pics to a few, then legally under Federal Law send (UPS/FEDEX) the pistol directly to the house of your choice (they're all FFL's) with confidence (they're also bonded).

Some may even have a CA office.

.

James K · August 8, 2012, 01:24 PM

FWIW, I dug into some old information and couldn't find any mention of a stock of that design or of any Borchardt stock that contained the gun (like the Mauser stock/holster). That one appears well made and functional; if it was not factory, it apparently used the attaching iron from a factory stock.

Jim

pitfighter · August 10, 2012, 01:49 AM

There is one for sale at a Gunstore, in Burbank, CA - without holster and missing the rear sling swivel for $18K.
It has been there for a year or so, yours with the stock/holster is nicer.

I agree, you should take to an auction house where it will get in front of the right potential buyers.

Pit.

James K · August 10, 2012, 11:52 AM

Items like that rarely sell at local gun shops because the exposure is too small. They need nationwide advertising and the resources of a big auction house, and that almost always means a quicker sale.

The down side is that items sold at auction just won't usually bring anywhere near a retail price* because most of the bidders are dealers who want to resell the item and need to buy at wholesale.

*Most value quotes on this and other sites will be the retail price, that is what a gun might bring on a direct sale, or what a dealer would sell the gun for, not what he would give for it.

Jim

kilimanjaro · August 10, 2012, 11:43 PM

That certainly appears to be a truly rare and outstanding piece. I would think something like a Christie's auction house in NYC would be able to give you some education on a potential sale process.

You will want to have it appraised and insured appropriately, immediately, as well as securely stored.

DWM C93 guy · July 18, 2016, 10:34 AM

Belongs to a friend that has it stored in a deposit box at his bank.

A couple of images are attached.

And perhaps this link works for a few more:
https://www.flickr.com/gp/145284455@N07/Nk7toM

mapsjanhere · July 18, 2016, 02:28 PM

Comment from above still applies. Top condition Borchardts need a high grade auction to bring the $10,000 + prices. Call Julia's or Rock Island auctions.

rightside · July 18, 2016, 08:38 PM

Wow! Just wow! Thanks for posting the eye candy.

Winchester_73 · August 7, 2016, 11:32 PM

I love that C-93! I would get it appraised and then go from there. Its a beautiful package!

Since my last post in this thread, 4 years ago,

I sold a few of my better guns through Jackthedog on Gun Auction. He is very good, honest, knowledgeable, etc. He gets a premium for most of what he sells. He has been selling guns online as consignment for 15 years and he has earned himself quite a reputation. I sent him two of my guns and I have no complaints - just a thought. He is a FFL. Although on the other hand, this gun might have to go to Julia, RIA, Amokseag, etc. for obvious reasons!

Google him and his contact info will appear. Despite it being 4 years ago, I stand by what I said in my other post in this thread

James K · August 7, 2016, 11:59 PM

If the rest of the gun is as good as what I can see, that C-93 Borchardt should run at least $40k, maybe more. Read what I said in my original post on the original gun. All Borchardts are antiques under the GCA.

Jim

**Mike Irwin** · August 8, 2016, 08:16 AM

If that's the original shipping box, and still has recognizable markings on it, the price of the gun in a well-advertised auction could be significantly more than $40,000.

Borchardt factory shipping boxes are virtually unknown, and are more uncommon than factory presentation cases.

Emerson Biggies · August 8, 2016, 10:24 PM

I had a chance to buy one in the original wooden case for $6500 back in 1971. Suson Park gun show in St. Louis.
I had never seen that much money in my life and chuckled at the high price.
Now I need to grow an extra joint in my leg so I can kick myself in the rear over not selling my firstborn to buy it.
NICE PIECE!

Ozzieman · August 10, 2016, 07:15 PM

The history of that gun from the first buyer onward would be fascinating.
That sir is no gun, that is a work of art.

August 4, 2012, 01:11 AM	#1
prm297 Junior Member Join Date: August 4, 2012 Posts: 3	Selling Advice for Borchardt C-93 Hi all, I recently inherited what I believe to be, after doing some research, a Borchardt C-93. The information on the gun is as follows: It's marked Waffenfabrik Loewe Berlin over the chamber. The toggle is marked D.R.P. No 75837 Left side of the barrel has B U G and the number 17223. The number 43 is on the bottom of the grip, the trigger, the bottom of the magazine, and the shoulder stock lug. The right side of the barrel reads "System Borchardt Patent" The stock itself doesn't seem to be matched to the gun in any visible way. I've posted some pictures so that you can see the condition of the gun and stock. I wanted to see if anyone could give me advice on how much they think this gun is really worth. Also, what is the best way to sell something like this. I've never done this before but I do know enough to recognize the value of this gun and want to make sure that it ends up in the right hands for the right price. Any advice would greatly be appreciated. http://flic.kr/p/cKc3Dd http://flic.kr/p/cKc3Kw http://flic.kr/p/cKc3Rd http://flic.kr/p/cKc3Zw http://flic.kr/p/cKc48s http://flic.kr/p/cKc4cS http://flic.kr/p/cKc4ju http://flic.kr/p/cKc4r7

August 4, 2012, 03:00 AM	#2
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	Definitely a Borchardt C93. Don't know about the shoulder stock, I have never seen an original for a Borchardt, just photos. Last fleeting glimpse of one I saw, the price was into serious money, north of the $30,000 mark. Check out this site, they had one for sale, perhaps they can advise. http://phoenixinvestmentarms.com/His...rchardtDWM.htm __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

August 4, 2012, 12:51 PM	#4
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	As for the best way to sell something like that - a top grade auction. People who pay the price of a decent car for a collectible gun want it in hand to inspect (or have a true professional inspect it if they're phone bidders), and you're not going to get that kind of crowd on gunbroker or at the local gun show. __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

August 4, 2012, 03:30 PM	#5
Winchester_73 Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2008 Location: Pittsburgh PA Posts: 2,863	The gun "sounds" mismatched to me, but even still this design was the first mass produced commercially successful semi auto pistol ever made. On second thought, the one that Scorch provided has two different 5 digit SNs , one on barrel and one on toggle. The gun that he showed us is a different collector category than the gun of the OP. Its a complete cased set, and all original with condition. Although I am sure, the OPs gun is valuable itself. Also remember retailers such as Phoenix investments and Simpson LTD always get more than what most people are able to get. Its what they do. The borchardt is a very important part of pistol history. Arriving in 1893, this gun was 3 years before the C-96, and about 6 years or so before the luger and the FN 1900. This design also was the inspiration for the Luger pistol. Georg Luger took the toggle action and fit the concept to a better design to invent the Luger pistol aka Parabellum. I would post this to the Jan Still forum and see what info you can find: The area of 1900 to 1918 would probably be best. The gun is unusual enough that it does not seem to fit any of their categories lol. Nice piece btw. http://luger.gunboards.com/forumdisp...s-amp-Holsters __________________ Winchester 73, the TFL user that won the west

August 6, 2012, 10:40 AM	#10
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	Wow. Pretty spectacular. As for the stock holster, it appears to be tiger stripe maple. Definitely not a common wood for making the stock holsers for these things. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

August 4, 2012, 04:37 AM	#3
gyvel Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2009 Location: Northern AZ Posts: 7,172	Agree with scorch. The stock is not the pattern of Borchardt stock that I have seen, but if it fits the gun, it was obviously made for it. As far as value, I also concur with scorch that the value is going to exceed 30k. You have a very early production gun, and the condition is pretty decent. I bought a Borchardt back in the mid 60s that I eventually sold in 1972 for about a thousand dollars, and it was basically trashed. You got a nice inheritance. If you decide to keep it for a while, it is only going to keep escalating in value.

August 5, 2012, 10:33 PM	#7
Webleymkv Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2005 Location: Indiana Posts: 10,446	Even if it's mismatched, I'd still think that a gun of that vintage and rarity would be worth thousands, if not tens of thousands, of dollars particularly when it's in as good condition as yours appears to be. Given the potential value of such a gun, I'd be looking into a professional appraisal were it mine (this would also be very helpful for insurance purposes).

August 6, 2012, 12:45 AM	#8
prm297 Junior Member Join Date: August 4, 2012 Posts: 3	Thanks everyone for all the advice, I really appreciate it. I definitely understand now how rare and special this item is! Unfortunately, along with this gun I also inherited a bit of other expenses that need to be taken care of! Furthermore, I have a feeling that this gun will bring a lot more joy in someone else's hands. That being said, some of you mentioned that the best place to sell this gun would be through professional services or an auction house. Does anyone have any specific recommendations? In particular, I'm now located in the Bay Area. Does anyone have any advice on auction houses or alternative venues that would be appropriate? As always, any help would be greatly appreciated.

August 6, 2012, 10:37 AM	#9
thickice Member Join Date: December 15, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 69	I used this auction to dispose of my brother's Remington collection, found him trustworthy and very knowledgeable. He is located in Anaheim CA, just down the road. http://www.littlejohnsauctionservice.com/auctions.html

August 6, 2012, 03:57 PM	#11
carguychris Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2007 Location: Richardson, TX Posts: 7,523	I agree with the others, particularly W73 and Mike Irwin. Even with the mismatched numbers, this pistol appears exceptional. If I were you, I would use an auctioneer that is world-renowned and is watched by leagues of collectors with very deep pockets. Although it's out of your area, I would recommend Heritage Auctions in Dallas, TX: http://historical.ha.com/armsarmor/?...ical-armsarmor __________________ "Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling. There are rules... MARK IT ZERO!!" - Walter Sobchak

August 7, 2012, 01:18 AM	#12
prm297 Junior Member Join Date: August 4, 2012 Posts: 3	Here is a link to my flickr photo album that has much higher resolution photos. Let me know if there is anything in particular you would like to see close up. http://flic.kr/ps/26Qd4j Any additional information gleaned from these photos? Thanks again for all the help and advice, I really appreciate it.

August 7, 2012, 10:52 AM	#13
PetahW Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2008 Posts: 4,678	IMHO, you need to get outside your area of local comfort, and put it in the hands of a world-famous auction house, that can/will realize the maximum return for it - like, James D. Julia , Christie's, Manion's, Sotheby's, Cowan's Auctions, Rock Island Auction Co, etc - all of which have websites (google). You can send your pics to a few, then legally under Federal Law send (UPS/FEDEX) the pistol directly to the house of your choice (they're all FFL's) with confidence (they're also bonded). Some may even have a CA office. .

August 8, 2012, 01:24 PM	#14
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	FWIW, I dug into some old information and couldn't find any mention of a stock of that design or of any Borchardt stock that contained the gun (like the Mauser stock/holster). That one appears well made and functional; if it was not factory, it apparently used the attaching iron from a factory stock. Jim

August 10, 2012, 01:49 AM	#15
pitfighter Junior Member Join Date: August 10, 2012 Posts: 14	There is one for sale at a Gunstore, in Burbank, CA - without holster and missing the rear sling swivel for $18K. It has been there for a year or so, yours with the stock/holster is nicer. I agree, you should take to an auction house where it will get in front of the right potential buyers. Pit.

August 10, 2012, 11:52 AM	#16
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Items like that rarely sell at local gun shops because the exposure is too small. They need nationwide advertising and the resources of a big auction house, and that almost always means a quicker sale. The down side is that items sold at auction just won't usually bring anywhere near a retail price* because most of the bidders are dealers who want to resell the item and need to buy at wholesale. *Most value quotes on this and other sites will be the retail price, that is what a gun might bring on a direct sale, or what a dealer would sell the gun for, not what he would give for it. Jim

August 10, 2012, 11:43 PM	#17
kilimanjaro Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2009 Posts: 3,963	That certainly appears to be a truly rare and outstanding piece. I would think something like a Christie's auction house in NYC would be able to give you some education on a potential sale process. You will want to have it appraised and insured appropriately, immediately, as well as securely stored.

July 18, 2016, 02:28 PM	#19
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	Comment from above still applies. Top condition Borchardts need a high grade auction to bring the $10,000 + prices. Call Julia's or Rock Island auctions. __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

July 18, 2016, 08:38 PM	#20
rightside Senior Member Join Date: February 4, 2012 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 419	Wow! Just wow! Thanks for posting the eye candy.

August 7, 2016, 11:32 PM	#21
Winchester_73 Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2008 Location: Pittsburgh PA Posts: 2,863	I love that C-93! I would get it appraised and then go from there. Its a beautiful package! Since my last post in this thread, 4 years ago, I sold a few of my better guns through Jackthedog on Gun Auction. He is very good, honest, knowledgeable, etc. He gets a premium for most of what he sells. He has been selling guns online as consignment for 15 years and he has earned himself quite a reputation. I sent him two of my guns and I have no complaints - just a thought. He is a FFL. Although on the other hand, this gun might have to go to Julia, RIA, Amokseag, etc. for obvious reasons! Google him and his contact info will appear. Despite it being 4 years ago, I stand by what I said in my other post in this thread __________________ Winchester 73, the TFL user that won the west

August 7, 2016, 11:59 PM	#22
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	If the rest of the gun is as good as what I can see, that C-93 Borchardt should run at least $40k, maybe more. Read what I said in my original post on the original gun. All Borchardts are antiques under the GCA. Jim

August 8, 2016, 08:16 AM	#23
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	If that's the original shipping box, and still has recognizable markings on it, the price of the gun in a well-advertised auction could be significantly more than $40,000. Borchardt factory shipping boxes are virtually unknown, and are more uncommon than factory presentation cases. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

August 8, 2016, 10:24 PM	#24
Emerson Biggies Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2014 Posts: 163	I had a chance to buy one in the original wooden case for $6500 back in 1971. Suson Park gun show in St. Louis. I had never seen that much money in my life and chuckled at the high price. Now I need to grow an extra joint in my leg so I can kick myself in the rear over not selling my firstborn to buy it. NICE PIECE! __________________ Keep your guns clean.... the kids may put them in their mouths!

August 10, 2016, 07:15 PM	#25
Ozzieman Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2004 Location: Northern Indiana Posts: 6,117	The history of that gun from the first buyer onward would be fascinating. That sir is no gun, that is a work of art. __________________ It was a sad day when I discovered my universal remote control did not in fact control the universe. Did you hear about the latest study.....5 out of 6 liberals say that Russian Roulette is safe.