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February 3, 2011, 12:19 PM | #76 | |
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While I love the pre type II H-Ps for their lovely finishes I prefer the type III for the cast frame and especially the more easily operated safety. The non humped feed ramp too. If I was just going to keep it in the safe and take it to the range once in awhile the T or C series would be fine but for possible carry use I prefer the later model's features. My 2 bits.
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February 4, 2011, 09:04 AM | #77 | |
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I noticed you didn't answer my question. I asked for evidence to support your claim that Browning (really FN) made a business decision to use castings rather than forgings in their frames for their newer guns. Do you have any evidence to support that claim? None of the new material you provided addressed the topic.
As for your following comment: Quote:
As for your claim that forged metal is more rust-resistant than cast metal -- I'd be interested in non-anecdotal evidence for that claim. I've never heard that before, and find it interesting. . . Last edited by Walt Sherrill; February 4, 2011 at 10:29 AM. |
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February 4, 2011, 09:06 AM | #78 |
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Gunnotes - that was a very interesting post on cast v forged guns. I enjoyed reading it.
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February 4, 2011, 09:17 AM | #79 |
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Wow, lots of crap in this thread already.
The old forged frame Browning High Powers will not last past @5000 (give or take) rounds of "major-9" ammunition without battering the frames to death. I know, I went through three of them. The newer cast frames are in fact slightly stronger than the older forged frames and will last quite a bit longer. This is in fact common knowledge these days. This is NOT new information. Anyone who really knows about the history of the Browning High Power, and I don't just mean the "romanticized" version, would know this.
Hey guys, this is getting a WEEEEE bit off topic here. Lets try to bring it back, shall we? To the O.P.: What have you decided to do with your High Power? |
February 4, 2011, 12:21 PM | #80 | |
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goodspeed(TPF):
Quote:
Inquiring minds want to know. Evan, get back to us.
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February 4, 2011, 01:13 PM | #81 |
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Goodspeed,
I do not think that you are correct in saying that old High Powers will not last more than 5k of hot loads without giving in. I have been shooting one of my 3 Belgian C series regularly in practice and competition for 17 years without any issues. These loads are hot enough to take a bowling pin clean off the table. Please be sure of your information before mentioning them as fact. There are newbies that will believe what you have said.
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February 4, 2011, 01:34 PM | #82 | |
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I've got Blake Stephen's book,"The Browning High Power Automatic Pistol." If a guy wants a detailed history of the Hi-Power and/or is a collector of same it is a good read and good to have around for future reference IMO.
I also have the latest version of Stephan Camp's book,"The Shooter's Guide To The Browning Hi Power." IMO the title describes the contents perfectly. If the reader is looking for a greatly readable treatise based on the man's forty years of experience with the venerable pistol it is well worth the price of admission. For me it is more valuable than the Blake Stephens book but YMMV.
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Last edited by Jimmy10mm; February 4, 2011 at 03:07 PM. Reason: clarification |
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February 4, 2011, 01:49 PM | #83 | |
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February 4, 2011, 09:24 PM | #84 | |
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The examples you cite could have been two different types of steel (with dramatically different carbon or other contents). That could have had more to do with presence of rust than whether the pieces were cast or forged. I would not expect a bell housing and a crankshaft, for example, to be made from the same stuff, to withstand physical stress in the same manner, or to resist corrosion in the same way. Can you cite some technical sources? |
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February 5, 2011, 08:35 AM | #85 |
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As I noted before, these are examples of anecdotal evidence. In the cases you cited, you tell us nothing about the types of metal being compared. The composition of the metal contributes to its rust-resistance and is very important. We don't know that the steels being compared are, in fact, similar.
Can you cite any technical sources that support your contention that forged steel is more rust resistant than cast steel? I've searched high and low and can find nothing that supports your claim. This is a subject that I've looked at before. (I've found all sorts of stuff about how forged steels can be stronger than cast steel, along one axis; those same sources note, however, that if the forged piece is stressed in multiple directions, cast steel will often be much stronger and more suitable. And these same sources say that cast steel is not necessarily more porous than forged steel -- it depends on the care and processes used in their creation. I've also found that the composition of the steel is the critical component in determining it's resistance to corrosion. But, again, nothing about how forging might contribute to rust resistance.) Last edited by Walt Sherrill; February 5, 2011 at 08:48 AM. |
February 5, 2011, 08:59 AM | #86 | |
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Did some googling on cast versus forged and came up with this from a fellow who worked for Ruger and wrote about the virtues of cast parts here. Might be helpful to add to the discussion.
I don't know about automotive parts or firearm parts but I do have a couple of decades of experience with both iron and steel tattoo machine frames both sand and investment castings. I can tell you for sure that either method produces castings which behave like any other malleable iron or steel product in terms of susceptibility to corrosion. IOW, in that particular application forged or cast would amount to the same resistance level in terms of rust. I imagine the castings FN are making are equal to the Ruger castings described in the above link.
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February 5, 2011, 11:15 AM | #87 | ||
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Quote:
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February 5, 2011, 01:37 PM | #88 | |||
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Quote:
You made the following statement: Quote:
I think you owe Mr Camp an apology.
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February 5, 2011, 02:08 PM | #89 | ||
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Quote:
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Need a FFL in Dallas/Plano/Allen/Frisco/McKinney ? Just EMAIL me. $20 transfers ($10 for CHL, active military,police,fire or schoolteachers) Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE |
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February 5, 2011, 03:43 PM | #90 | |
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Don't panic or stroke out when you find put about the MIM parts. Again, you owe Mr Camp an apology for your misstatement of fact.
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February 5, 2011, 03:54 PM | #91 |
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I'm glad Evan was able to get the info on his Hi Power he was looking for.
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February 5, 2011, 04:20 PM | #92 |
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^^^
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February 5, 2011, 04:38 PM | #93 | |
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Yeah but does he have a ...... shudder.....cast frame ?? Better get rid of it now ..... send me a PM
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February 5, 2011, 04:42 PM | #94 |
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Looking closer the gun is worth more than $700 I stated originally due to its made in Belgium marking. This ups its blue book value by 50%. I would rate this gun at 95% because it has been shot and has handling marks in the silver chrome. BB of Guns 39th edition puts it value at $550 + 50% = $825. That assumes he has original mags. This gun was made in 1980.
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February 5, 2011, 04:57 PM | #95 | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt when I (and Mr. Sherrill) asked that you provide verification of your claim that gun steel castings rust faster and more aggressively than gun steel forgings, specifically requesting that you not reference anecdotal experiences (which isn't to say that experience, intuition and common sense can't be right; it's just not "proof"). And you reply with personal experiences and what passes for "common sense" I guess (the porosity of cast steel collects and holds water more than forged steel does). Everything you allege could certainly be correct. All I was asking is that you provide hard data supporting a claim that I've never heard of before and was genuinely interested in hearing the evidence for same. If you can't come up with the empirical data (I know I tried and couldn't) proving your case, just say so. Because you (or I) can't come up with the "proof" doesn't necessarily invalidate your claim; it just leaves it at the doorstep of hearsay until the facts are provided.
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February 5, 2011, 05:00 PM | #96 | |
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FN had to build a stronger gun to handle the .40 S&W round, and it would appear that using a cast frame was the most cost effective way to do so. That didn't make the new gun cheaper, nor did it mean that the gun was in any away less robust than the prior models. In fact, it was stronger. How is that a "cheapening" of the product? Most companies call that a good business decision. |
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February 5, 2011, 05:03 PM | #97 |
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My advice if you want to sell it is to put it on gunbroker and start bidding at $700 and see what happens. I'll bet it pulls over 1k easily.
If you're not a handgun connoisseur sell it. I know I'd rather have the money than a painting I could sell for $2,500, art's not my bag. |
February 5, 2011, 05:12 PM | #98 | |
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February 5, 2011, 09:25 PM | #99 |
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Some people would argue a black cow was white while they look at it.
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February 5, 2011, 11:06 PM | #100 | ||
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Prodded by your comments about how you believe the market values the older forged guns, I used the newest Blue Book to examine prices. I understand that Blue Book prices aren't what you'll always find in a gun store, but every gun shop I've done business with seems to have a BB on hand to help them set prices on trade ins. BB prices aren't absolute, but they are one measure of value. I was surprised with what this quick review showed. The price cited in the BB for the T-series BHP in 95% condition, in today's dollars, is $525. The BB price for a MKIII (.40) made in 2000, also in 95% condition, is $550 That older T-series sold for around $1000 in 1955 dollars, while the MKIII sold for about $1000 in 2000 dollars. There's a big difference in the "real" costs of those guns, with the newer BHP being much less expensive in terms of buying power. There are also many other post T-series BHPs that sell for more than T-series guns; Browning/FN has built a lot of different guns using the BHP pattern. But, no matter how you look at it, the market seems to be saying something quite different than what you would have us believe. Quote:
As for the differences in prices paid between the two types of guns -- I cited some examples of the differences above, and I cited my sources. Upon what do you base your claims? |
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