Reloading .380 with heavy heads

CatmanDoes · January 20, 2011, 06:05 AM

Apologies if this has come up before, I did search around here, found a few threads and posts but have yet to find an answer to my specific question.

First up, my big problem is I'm not in the States and getting bullet heads can be a nightmare and expensive (especially in shipping) I also have extremely limited options on what I can get my hands on in terms of reloading supplies.

Now I'm looking to buy a .380 pistol (not sure which one yet, probably a Sig P232). I currently reload all my ammo for .45, 9mm and .357 with bought hard-cast lead heads, which for the 9mm come in 125gr flavour, so I'm wondering as I currently have a large stock of these; can I make up a .380 round with these heads? And I'll only be using these rounds at the range (max distance of 25 yards) before anyone asks, I'm not looking for any kind of self-defense round. I know that the lighter the head the better but I'm hoping to find a compromise here

From what I've read, I understand there'll be very little room in the case for the powder with such a large bullet. I did find a recipe floating around on the internet for 125gr using AA-5 that claimed to achieve 800 FPS but I'd like to have confirmed this with more sources/recipes/opinions before considering this route any further. Oh, I currently have Hodgdon Universal and HP-38 in stock but I can get hold of most powders.

Of course my other option is to cast my own heads but I'm not at all set up for this and am considering it a last resort at this stage.

Thanks in advance for any comments/advice.

spacecoast · January 20, 2011, 06:15 AM

Not saying it wouldn't work, but I don't think it's worth the risk of a kaboom. I'd work harder at finding some 95 or 100 grain bullets if I were you, or stick with 9mm.

Sevens · January 20, 2011, 08:02 AM

One of the problems you may face (besides the obvious!) is that the case itself is designed around bullets of a certain length. The heavier bullet you use, the longer it is. (obviously!) You will get to the point whee regardless of the amount of leftover internal space needed for combustion, the brass will be too thick the closer you get to the case head.

You may not be able to seat these heavy bullets deep enough in the case to allow for a workable COAL of the loaded round.

I know what my answer would be in your position -- I'd simply get over my desire for a .380. For sure, that's pretty easy for me to do and I can get the bullets quickly, cheaply and easily!

fhwiggins · January 20, 2011, 08:33 AM

Not being in the states may prevent you from loading 380's safefully. Surely you have someone in the states that can get what you need and forward them on to you. Where there is a will there is a way but I would not fool around with untried weights or methods. My manual shows 115gr. as the biggest pre made fmj round. Mine have worked fine but only after checking ALL tolerances and manual chambering checks with the barrell removed. I have shot quite a few 115gr jhp in my 380 with no jams but again as with all reloading, there is no such thing as checking to much or being too carefull.

jmortimer · January 20, 2011, 09:26 AM

What everyone else said. Don't go over 100 grains.

overkill0084 · January 20, 2011, 09:56 AM

I've got a bunch of 115 gr bullets for my 9mm, That's about as heavy as I would prefer to go. I've actually been meaning to try some. I don't think I would want to go any heavier. I would think that size limitations become a factor. I currently use 95 & 100 gr cast. I didn't have spectacular results with Accurate #5 in my wife's PPK/S. To be fair, I didn't really work that hard building loads. I've found that Bullseye in works well for me toward the warmer end of the spectrum. I still have more work to do however. My real problem is that I really don't enjoy loading for the .380. If .380 acp ammo was cheaper, I probably wouldn't bother.

CatmanDoes · January 20, 2011, 10:48 AM

I'm on the lookout for .380 heads but the only ones I can find are copper jacketed/washed but these are over twice the price of the hard-cast lead stuff for 9mm.

If it comes to it I'll cast my own 'boolits', I see that Lee do a .380 mould at around 100gr. But if I do go for the cast-your-own route I may as well consider other calibres (.32 or .25 for example) it's not for self-defense/conceal carry just making holes in paper for a bit of fun.

reloader28 · January 20, 2011, 12:12 PM

The Lyman cast books only go to 120gr, which is close in weight, but the RCBS cast book has 2 different 124gr bullets with several different powders.

I use 125gr Lyman truncated cone homecast and they work great in both my 380's. I'm using 2.2gr Bullseye and they shoot good, but that is over the book max. You'll want to start lower than that of course.

WESHOOT2 · January 20, 2011, 09:11 PM

While i do not personally load 380, I am aware of numerous others using 115g bullets.
They load them over AA2, TiteGroup, Bullseye, W231, Power Pistol, and 3N37.

Sierra offers published data.

jpsshack · January 22, 2011, 04:39 PM

My personal preference is to keep .380 bullets at 100 grains or lower. That said, I've done 115 gr. jacketed bullets for .380. They bulge the cases quite a bit, but shoot straight. Getting them the right OAL resulted in some case bulging, and I needed to run them through a Lee factory crimp die to restore them to spec. These were Rose 115 grain FMJ bullets.

Quote:

I see that Lee do a .380 mould at around 100gr.

I have that mould (Lee 356-102 1R) A very nice, versatile little "boolit"
great in the .380 as well as the 9.

goodspeed(TPF) · January 22, 2011, 07:48 PM

Get a mold and cast your own.

pelo801 · January 22, 2011, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Get a mold and cast your own.

yeah, this ^^^^. i have loaded 115 gr in my .380. like already said, the cases bulged and i was not happy at all with the accuracy.

Clark · January 23, 2011, 03:44 AM

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

I have some hours into 380 hot hand load experiments, mostly 158 gr.

Two weeks ago I was working with 115 gr JHP.

The 380s with long magazines for longer OAL, heavy slides, thick chamber walls, and good case support, can exceed the power of 357 magnum with the same barrel length.

The 380s with short magazines, light slides, thin chamber walls, and poor case support over the feed ramp, can not catch up to standard 9mm performance. These are the Kel-Tec P3AT and Ruger LCP class of 380s.

And there are lots of 380s in between that reach 9mm +P performance.

Unfortunately, some limitations are not just the brass.
Don't try to get 357 mag performance with a WWII bring back with a .095" chamber wall.
Ask me how I know

What does it all mean?
Don't experiment beyond conventional procedures unless you know what you are doing so no one gets hurt.
Don't experiment on any hardware you are not emotionally prepared to throw away.

Xfire68 · January 23, 2011, 03:53 AM

My favorite for the .380 is a 90g Hornady XTP but, in your case where your not able to get what you want I would cast your own and not go over 102g.

I have tried to go higher with a 115g and the cases buckled badly.

Sevens · January 23, 2011, 09:22 AM

We know that your experiments run the rough edge of sanity, Clark, and for most of us, there is no practical application of your findings. But I would be interested to hear specifically which firearms... manufacturers and models are capable of handling your nuclear 158 grain and/or "beyond .357 Mag performance" rounds.

I'm trying to think of a solid .380 and I'm coming up short. Walther PPK? Beretta 84?

Which .380 will contain that blast?

Clark · January 23, 2011, 11:39 PM

The 1903 Browning 380 when built for the 9mmBrowning, can take a cartridge in 380 that will take a cartridge that is 1.090" instead of .984". It has thick chamber walls, good case support and a heavy slide used in blow back mode.
With it's 5" barrel, it will push 158 gr from 1158 ~ 1187 fps.

In contrast a 357 mag with 3.4" barrel and a 1.6" cylinder length cannot push a 158 gr bullet that fast without the cases getting very stuck in the chamber.

There is not much practical application for the 1903, because the 100 year old pistol weighs 33 ounces empty.

Contrast that with little locked breech 380s that weigh 6 ounces empty, that can't get half way from 380 up to 9mm.

What does it all mean?
At 33 ounces, you could carry a 357 mag, so why bother with the hot heavy 380?

CatmanDoes · January 24, 2011, 02:22 PM

Thanks for all the replies guys

I'm going to go down the casting route - as soon as I decide which pocket pistol calibre to go with

spacecoast · January 24, 2011, 02:27 PM

Quote:

The 380s with long magazines for longer OAL, heavy slides, thick chamber walls, and good case support, can exceed the power of 357 magnum with the same barrel length.

No way I'm going to try that <stuff> with my 1921 Colt Hammerless

January 20, 2011, 06:05 AM	#1
CatmanDoes Junior Member Join Date: June 18, 2010 Posts: 7	Reloading .380 with heavy heads Apologies if this has come up before, I did search around here, found a few threads and posts but have yet to find an answer to my specific question. First up, my big problem is I'm not in the States and getting bullet heads can be a nightmare and expensive (especially in shipping) I also have extremely limited options on what I can get my hands on in terms of reloading supplies. Now I'm looking to buy a .380 pistol (not sure which one yet, probably a Sig P232). I currently reload all my ammo for .45, 9mm and .357 with bought hard-cast lead heads, which for the 9mm come in 125gr flavour, so I'm wondering as I currently have a large stock of these; can I make up a .380 round with these heads? And I'll only be using these rounds at the range (max distance of 25 yards) before anyone asks, I'm not looking for any kind of self-defense round. I know that the lighter the head the better but I'm hoping to find a compromise here From what I've read, I understand there'll be very little room in the case for the powder with such a large bullet. I did find a recipe floating around on the internet for 125gr using AA-5 that claimed to achieve 800 FPS but I'd like to have confirmed this with more sources/recipes/opinions before considering this route any further. Oh, I currently have Hodgdon Universal and HP-38 in stock but I can get hold of most powders. Of course my other option is to cast my own heads but I'm not at all set up for this and am considering it a last resort at this stage. Thanks in advance for any comments/advice.

January 20, 2011, 08:02 AM	#3
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	One of the problems you may face (besides the obvious!) is that the case itself is designed around bullets of a certain length. The heavier bullet you use, the longer it is. (obviously!) You will get to the point whee regardless of the amount of leftover internal space needed for combustion, the brass will be too thick the closer you get to the case head. You may not be able to seat these heavy bullets deep enough in the case to allow for a workable COAL of the loaded round. I know what my answer would be in your position -- I'd simply get over my desire for a .380. For sure, that's pretty easy for me to do and I can get the bullets quickly, cheaply and easily! __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

January 20, 2011, 08:33 AM	#4
fhwiggins Member Join Date: July 14, 2009 Posts: 36	Not being in the states may prevent you from loading 380's safefully. Surely you have someone in the states that can get what you need and forward them on to you. Where there is a will there is a way but I would not fool around with untried weights or methods. My manual shows 115gr. as the biggest pre made fmj round. Mine have worked fine but only after checking ALL tolerances and manual chambering checks with the barrell removed. I have shot quite a few 115gr jhp in my 380 with no jams but again as with all reloading, there is no such thing as checking to much or being too carefull. __________________ "Law abiding citizen" is not a synonym for "Sheep to the slaughter." CCW!

January 20, 2011, 09:56 AM	#6
overkill0084 Senior Member Join Date: August 7, 2010 Location: Northern, UT Posts: 1,162	I've got a bunch of 115 gr bullets for my 9mm, That's about as heavy as I would prefer to go. I've actually been meaning to try some. I don't think I would want to go any heavier. I would think that size limitations become a factor. I currently use 95 & 100 gr cast. I didn't have spectacular results with Accurate #5 in my wife's PPK/S. To be fair, I didn't really work that hard building loads. I've found that Bullseye in works well for me toward the warmer end of the spectrum. I still have more work to do however. My real problem is that I really don't enjoy loading for the .380. If .380 acp ammo was cheaper, I probably wouldn't bother. __________________ Cheers, Greg “At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child – miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied, demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless. Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats.” — P.J. O’Rourke

January 20, 2011, 12:12 PM	#8
reloader28 Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 2009 Location: nw wyoming Posts: 1,061	The Lyman cast books only go to 120gr, which is close in weight, but the RCBS cast book has 2 different 124gr bullets with several different powders. I use 125gr Lyman truncated cone homecast and they work great in both my 380's. I'm using 2.2gr Bullseye and they shoot good, but that is over the book max. You'll want to start lower than that of course. Last edited by reloader28; January 20, 2011 at 11:29 PM.

January 20, 2011, 06:15 AM	#2
spacecoast Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2009 Location: Sunshine and Keystone States Posts: 4,461	Not saying it wouldn't work, but I don't think it's worth the risk of a kaboom. I'd work harder at finding some 95 or 100 grain bullets if I were you, or stick with 9mm.

January 20, 2011, 09:26 AM	#5
jmortimer Junior member Join Date: January 24, 2010 Location: South West Riverside County California Posts: 2,763	What everyone else said. Don't go over 100 grains.

January 20, 2011, 10:48 AM	#7
CatmanDoes Junior Member Join Date: June 18, 2010 Posts: 7	I'm on the lookout for .380 heads but the only ones I can find are copper jacketed/washed but these are over twice the price of the hard-cast lead stuff for 9mm. If it comes to it I'll cast my own 'boolits', I see that Lee do a .380 mould at around 100gr. But if I do go for the cast-your-own route I may as well consider other calibres (.32 or .25 for example) it's not for self-defense/conceal carry just making holes in paper for a bit of fun.

January 20, 2011, 09:11 PM	#9
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	"head" = bullet While i do not personally load 380, I am aware of numerous others using 115g bullets. They load them over AA2, TiteGroup, Bullseye, W231, Power Pistol, and 3N37. Sierra offers published data. __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

January 22, 2011, 07:48 PM	#11
goodspeed(TPF) Senior Member Join Date: January 19, 2009 Location: WI Posts: 1,162	Get a mold and cast your own. __________________ It's a trick. Get an axe. http://www.thepiratefleet.com/index.shtml

January 23, 2011, 03:44 AM	#13
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information. I have some hours into 380 hot hand load experiments, mostly 158 gr. Two weeks ago I was working with 115 gr JHP. The 380s with long magazines for longer OAL, heavy slides, thick chamber walls, and good case support, can exceed the power of 357 magnum with the same barrel length. The 380s with short magazines, light slides, thin chamber walls, and poor case support over the feed ramp, can not catch up to standard 9mm performance. These are the Kel-Tec P3AT and Ruger LCP class of 380s. And there are lots of 380s in between that reach 9mm +P performance. Unfortunately, some limitations are not just the brass. Don't try to get 357 mag performance with a WWII bring back with a .095" chamber wall. Ask me how I know What does it all mean? Don't experiment beyond conventional procedures unless you know what you are doing so no one gets hurt. Don't experiment on any hardware you are not emotionally prepared to throw away.

January 23, 2011, 03:53 AM	#14
Xfire68 Senior Member Join Date: March 31, 2010 Location: Communist State of IL. Posts: 1,562	My favorite for the .380 is a 90g Hornady XTP but, in your case where your not able to get what you want I would cast your own and not go over 102g. I have tried to go higher with a 115g and the cases buckled badly. __________________ NRA Life Member, SAF Member

January 23, 2011, 09:22 AM	#15
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	We know that your experiments run the rough edge of sanity, Clark, and for most of us, there is no practical application of your findings. But I would be interested to hear specifically which firearms... manufacturers and models are capable of handling your nuclear 158 grain and/or "beyond .357 Mag performance" rounds. I'm trying to think of a solid .380 and I'm coming up short. Walther PPK? Beretta 84? Which .380 will contain that blast? __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

January 23, 2011, 11:39 PM	#16
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	The 1903 Browning 380 when built for the 9mmBrowning, can take a cartridge in 380 that will take a cartridge that is 1.090" instead of .984". It has thick chamber walls, good case support and a heavy slide used in blow back mode. With it's 5" barrel, it will push 158 gr from 1158 ~ 1187 fps. In contrast a 357 mag with 3.4" barrel and a 1.6" cylinder length cannot push a 158 gr bullet that fast without the cases getting very stuck in the chamber. There is not much practical application for the 1903, because the 100 year old pistol weighs 33 ounces empty. Contrast that with little locked breech 380s that weigh 6 ounces empty, that can't get half way from 380 up to 9mm. What does it all mean? At 33 ounces, you could carry a 357 mag, so why bother with the hot heavy 380?

January 24, 2011, 02:22 PM	#17
CatmanDoes Junior Member Join Date: June 18, 2010 Posts: 7	Thanks for all the replies guys I'm going to go down the casting route - as soon as I decide which pocket pistol calibre to go with