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September 11, 2013, 08:29 PM | #51 |
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Don't trustees still get filed with the ATF in some fashion? Or do they JUST see the trust and not know there's 200 trustees listed unless they go out and actually look it up? I'd think they'd automatically look into any trust with >x number of trustees. That'd be a better start to limiting misuse of trusts than adding more procedures.
Related, does every trustee need to go through any type of background check? |
September 11, 2013, 10:12 PM | #52 | ||
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http://thegunwriter.blogs.heraldtrib...f-a-gun-trust/ http://mrsilencer.com/GUN_TRUSTS.html They don't have to process fingerprints and do an individual background check.
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September 11, 2013, 11:19 PM | #53 |
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I think that's a bigger isssue than trying to get some CLEO who has the right to refuse based on his personal opinion sign off on everything.
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September 12, 2013, 08:48 AM | #54 | ||
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September 12, 2013, 09:41 AM | #55 |
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My trust has two trustees. Me and my lovely lady. When I send in new form 4(s) the amendment that names her as a trustee goes with the trust to ATF.
My dealer used to attach photos of us with the trust. Some of my trust's approved form 4s have my photo attached when they were sent back. A few months back, my dealer got a call from his inspector (Nickie) telling him to stop sending the photos because they were confusing the temporary help that they had there.
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September 13, 2013, 11:26 AM | #56 | |
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I'm hearing this one a lot:
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September 13, 2013, 01:04 PM | #57 | |
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September 13, 2013, 02:11 PM | #58 | |
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September 16, 2013, 12:53 PM | #59 |
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Yeah, I was reading recently how they, the ATF considers trusts to be a loop hole that allows convicted felons to own NFA firearms, and they are (have) taken measures to change it.
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September 16, 2013, 04:00 PM | #60 |
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That is nonsense. Even more nonsense because the measure they are taking doesn't solve the problem they claim exists. It just creates an additional barrier for legal ownership.
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September 16, 2013, 04:33 PM | #61 | |
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However, this new proposal , while it might stem some unintended uses of trusts is by FAR about the most backward and inefficient way to do so. Now, IF there was a CLEO for every area (heard there isn't always?) and IF that CLEO could only refuse to sign if there was documented evidence the applicant had or was planning to stray outside the law, then the proposal wouldn't be so terrible. As to the separate proposed tax increase, what they should do is offer an expedited service for that $500. You want it in 1-3 months, pay $500. Don't mind a 6-9 month wait, $200. Honestly, I'd bet that arrangement could really impact the national debt... |
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September 16, 2013, 05:27 PM | #62 | ||
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September 16, 2013, 06:57 PM | #63 | ||
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September 16, 2013, 09:16 PM | #64 | |
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September 16, 2013, 09:22 PM | #65 | |
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Further, requiring CLEO sign-off on all trustees does not solve this problem since a trust can legally be amended after it has been approved by ATF. It is like every other gun control law proposed by this Administration. The law does nothing to solve the problem they claim they are trying to solve but it creates giant burdens for good, law-abiding citizens who are trying to stay law-abiding but still own firearms. |
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September 17, 2013, 08:37 AM | #66 | |
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September 17, 2013, 11:40 AM | #67 |
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Some of the last few comments are really troubling to me. First off, if a felon or prohibited person were to try and circumvent any law by being on a Trust they would still be in violation of the law - i.e. breaking the law.
A prohibited person (Felon) in possession of an NFA item or any firearm for that matter is already AGAINST the law. It does not matter how that item was obtained. Why do we need any more laws, Executive Orders, Executive Actions, etc ??!?!?!? It is plain simple language that is already in place. Second point. Why should I or anyone have to pay a fee for an "expedited" BATFE approval - i.e. Tax Stamp. Absolutely not, and one can make a strong argument that will all the taxes already in place, and the 2nd Amendment there should not even be a $200 tax stamp requirement to own NFA items. Bottom line. This proposed action, be it law, Excecutive this or that, is a stupid feel good proposal that will - once again - ONLY effect us law abiding citizens. Regards, Rob
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September 17, 2013, 01:26 PM | #68 | |
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And ATF seems uncertain on that rule yet. They discussed something like that in the proposal but were specifically asking for comments regarding how feasible that was. Realistically, I don't think it is that feasible - if you define responsible person broadly enough to make it useful in excluding the odd felon, you will blow away the ATF estimate of 2 people per trust by a large factor (In my trust it would be 7 responsible persons - and this is a fairly simple trust). If you limit "responsible persons" to only those who can alienate trust property, then there are still several loopholes that can still be abused by felons who are desperately seeking ATF attention that would allow them to escape the "Unregistered possession of NFA item" charge; but not the 20 other charges. And for what? Hell, a Form 3 between dealers is taking months as it is right now. I could probably add a felon to a trust, submit the appropriate form to ATF notifying them of the fact in the exact fashion ATF wishes to be notified and it might be a year or more before they noticed it. |
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September 20, 2013, 03:09 PM | #69 |
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This all sounds like a giant pain in the arse for all parties involved.
I'd like to see them drop 'ol Cleo from the requirement and grandfather current tax stamps and trusts. If they are hell bent on making changes then make the rookies getting their first NFA gun jump through the hoops or anyone wanting to add a new person to their trust or a new gun. Just my 2 cents. Serbu Super Shorty 12ga (my skeet gun) Rock River SBR AR-15, 5.56mm, Sig red dot, GI sling Yankee Hill 9mm suppressor (for my G-19) |
September 20, 2013, 03:21 PM | #70 |
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NFATCA just had to go over and poke their finger in the Hornet's nest...
NFA firearms collectors group initiated ATF gun trust rule change http://www.examiner.com/article/nfa-...st-rule-change If you are a member of NFATCA (which I am not), I would drop my membership like a hot potato. |
September 20, 2013, 09:54 PM | #71 |
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Re: ATF Extending CLEO Sign Off to Trusts and Corporations
See, I never understood the process to begin with. Once you go through the process once, it should be a relatively simple process to just verify everything's still valid. So, have thorough background checks, 6 month wait time, etc... Everytime after that should be able to be processed in a matter of weeks.
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September 22, 2013, 11:52 PM | #72 |
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I am a newbie in the NFA area, and I have been working on learning more about the rules and regulations as I already have a Class 01 FFL. I have strongly considered obtaining my Class 03 tax stamp to be able to sell/transfer NFA items with my Class 01 FFL, but this has made me step back. The last thing I want to do is make a bad business decision with jumping in on that while these proposed changes are in the works.
I agree that it looks like they are trampling on our 2nd Amendment rights yet again and trying to make an already trying process even more difficult to push people away from NFA items including dealers... |
September 23, 2013, 12:39 AM | #73 | |
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September 23, 2013, 01:11 AM | #74 | ||
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September 23, 2013, 09:24 AM | #75 |
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Not only would this cut back on demand for NFA items, there is also the issue of what happens to all the already paid-for but still pending NFA applications when this goes into effect. A giant cut in demand + a huge dump of NFA items at the same time is going to hurt. It almost looks like this regulation was designed to put people out of business as its primary goal.
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