I need to make some hot 124gr 9mm loads (also, what is max pressure for 9mm?)

jdthaddeus · August 14, 2000, 02:17 PM

Hello all,

I am looking to make some 9mm loads that shoot similar to my carry ammo, so they need to be a bit hot.

As for powders, I tend to prefer Accurate #5, Titegroup, WST, and maybe Power Pistol. I am open to suggestions, but it would be nice to stick with what I know.

So far, looking at a couple of manuals, it looks like Titegroup might give me pretty good velocities at lower pressures than most. And, AA#5 seems to give good velocity (1200fps listed) but no pressure listing is given.

I was hoping for at least 1200fps for a 124gr bullet. Nothing nuclear, but a bit hot. I would not mind going hotter than that, but that is minimal.

I am wondering first of all what pressure max is for a 9mm, because most loads I find in manuals list around 28,000-32,000cup and I believe that 9mm can go a lot hotter than that.
Power Pistol lists the hottest load I can find which is a 125gr FMJ load at 1235fps and 34k pressure, and if I am not mistaken, that is still below pressure max for a 9mm.

Any help developing this load would be appreciated. I am shooting a G19 and tend to carry for defense 124gr +P such as Gold Dots offered by Proload or Speer, as well as Corbon. As I said, the idea is to develop a load for practice that imitates my carry ammo.

Thanks!

Ps- I will be shooting lead at times from an aftermarket barrel, as well as FMJ for practice, so loads for both are needed.

WESHOOT2 · August 14, 2000, 06:04 PM

For stupid loads please e-mail me direct.

"They call me Major Nine"

------------------
"All my ammo is factory ammo"

Stephen A. Camp · August 15, 2000, 06:10 AM

Hello. I've had excellent luck with the following: 124 gr Hornady XTP/6.0 gr Unique/Federal SP Primer/FC or WW cases, LOA ~ 1.11". Average Vel from Browning HP ~ 1243ft/sec. Average Velocity increases to 1285 ft/sec if you moly-coat the bullet. This round has proven very accurate. Best.

Clark · August 15, 2000, 09:26 PM

DESTRUCTIVE LOAD PRESSURE DATA!!!

THESE LOADS EXCEED SAAMI SPECS. THEY ARE INTENDED TO RESULT IN
CATASTROPHIC FAILURE OF THE FIREARM AND/OR THE RELOADED COMPONENTS AS
A MEANS TOWARD COMPILING LOAD PRESSURE DATA. [/B]

The book load is Hornady 124 gr FMJ FP 1.140" 6.6 gr Power Pistol.

I have done 7.6 gr 1.168" [+P+]

I have done [+P+++] with other powders.

[This message has been edited by Clark (edited August 22, 2000).]

alan · August 15, 2000, 10:40 PM

My copy of Accurate Loading Manual, #1, page 88 lists the following loads in 125 grain bullets, what apperars below are the maximum loads with Accurate #5

125 Grain lead rn 6.2 grains, 1133ft/sec 32800 cup

Hornady 124 grain rn 6.4 grains 1200 ft/sec 33,000cup

Saami maximum average pressure 33,000 cup

jdthaddeus · August 17, 2000, 09:44 PM

Thanks so far. I think I am going to go with about 6.7 gr of Power Pistol, which is max according to the Alliant manual, and it is still only 34k pressure.
I am told that the max pressure for 9mm according to American standards is 38K (SAAMI) and that Europeans usually load it higher, like American +P (42K).
I think I will be very safe at around 34k and I will be getting 1250fps from a 124gr bullet. That should give me a good lead in my attempt to find a practice load that matches my carry load.

Clark · August 18, 2000, 01:51 AM

DESTRUCTIVE LOAD PRESSURE DATA!!!

THESE LOADS EXCEED SAAMI SPECS. THEY ARE INTENDED TO RESULT IN
CATASTROPHIC FAILURE OF THE FIREARM AND/OR THE RELOADED COMPONENTS AS
A MEANS TOWARD COMPILING LOAD PRESSURE DATA. [/B]

Tonight I shot 8.7 gr AA#5 124 gr FMJ FP Hornady, 1.169" 9mm [48,000 cup].

I also shot 8.4 gr Power Pistol 124 gr FMJ FP Hornady, 1.169" 9mm [51,000 psi].

[This message has been edited by Clark (edited August 18, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Clark (edited August 18, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Clark (edited August 22, 2000).]

BMiracle · August 18, 2000, 08:24 AM

Before you decide, look into BlueDot. I have some loads with 124 gr GoldDots that are pushing 1300 fps out of my Beretta 92. (Little lower with a 4" barrel) Can't remember off hand how much powder. BlueDot is a slower burning powder that is used for magnum loads. I guess these are 9mm Magnums! Either way, they shoot good with not too much recoil. Look it up in the books.

Clark · August 19, 2000, 01:21 AM

DESTRUCTIVE LOAD PRESSURE DATA!!!

THESE LOADS EXCEED SAAMI SPECS. THEY ARE INTENDED TO RESULT IN
CATASTROPHIC FAILURE OF THE FIREARM AND/OR THE RELOADED COMPONENTS AS
A MEANS TOWARD COMPILING LOAD PRESSURE DATA. [/B]

I can only get 10.1 gr of Blue Dot in a 9mm case before seating the bullet to compress it. At 1.169" 124 gr, 42k psi is all the more I can get.

At 147 gr only 8.7 gr of Blue Dot is needed to get 51k psi. The bulky slow powder does well in the heavy wieght class.

Power Pistol wins at 124 gr and Blue Dot beats Power Pistol at 147 gr.

[This message has been edited by Clark (edited August 22, 2000).]

jdthaddeus · August 19, 2000, 04:16 AM

Clark, thanks for the tips.

How can you measure pressure anyway, without expensive equipment?

What were the velocities on those loads?

Lastly, if I am shooting 124gr hardcast lead bullets, and I only have data for FMJ bullets, then how much powder do I use? Is there a "formula" to firgure out how much powder to use in a lead bullet? Like "increase the powder charge by X% weight when switching from FMJ to lead"?

I know that 124gr FMJ takes 6.7gr of Power Pistol to get 1250fps and a little more than 34k psi. So...how much Power Pistol should I load if I am using a 125gr lead bullet instead?

[This message has been edited by jdthaddeus (edited August 19, 2000).]

Clark · August 19, 2000, 08:38 AM

I used the ratios from Lee's "Modern Reloading":
1) If a bullet gets 10% then the velocity looses 4% and the pressure gains 8%.
2) If powder gains 10%, then the velocity gains 8%, and the pressure 20%.
3) If the powder space goes up 10% then the velocity looses 4% and the pressure looses 13%.

Lead bullets should take approximately the same amount of powder. They might need a litle more becuse of less friction and force to deform. The difference would be small compared to the change when you go +P+.

Rocky Road · August 25, 2000, 02:16 AM

CAUTION: The following entry contains load data which exceeds published values.
USE AT YOUR OWN RISK!

jd--

I can only echo the load suggested by Steve Camp, above: Hornady 124 gr. XTP with 6.0 gr. Unique. Quite good accuracy and function in one Browning High Power and several Kel-Tec P- 11 pistols. I have used the same information with other bullets, as well--Zero brand FMJ and Ranier plated, both old single-strike (not near so accurate) and later double-strike versions. Oh, yeah, also in a Mark II Sten Gun, a Madsen SMG, and two different MP-5s.

My chronograph results closely follow Steve's, except that I never messed with the moly coating.
PLEASE NOTE: Speer factory 124 Gold Dot HP loads chronographed at 1115 fps from my Inglis No. 2 Mk. 1* High Power. The 124/6 Unique load betters this noticibly. Instrumentation: Oehler Model 43 with third, check screen.

I obtained this load from Mr. Camp when I first got my Dillon 550B loader in 1991. My experience is limited to perhaps 3,000 such loads. This is a drop in the bucket compared to Steve's background with the 9x19. He has long been the local guru of SANE niner mike mike information.

The Power Pistol load you found sounds as if it would be satisfactory. If you just want to duplicate the Speer Gold Dot factory load, though, you don't need to go near that warm.

From your other, closely related, topic--- have you reached any conclusions about the 125 LEAD 9 mm load?
Best regards--
RR
CAUTION: The foregoing entry contains load data which exceeds published values.

------------------
---The Second Amendment ensures the rest of the Bill of Rights---

alan · August 27, 2000, 05:20 PM

Just a brief word about the 9mm round, based on my experence shooting a browning hi-powewr and a star model 30. The browning is somewhat the worse for wear, having sheared a cam block at one time.

Seems as if the 10 twist is not the best for lead bullets. When S & w changed from 1 in 10 to 1 in 18.75, group size in their old model 39's was cut sharply.

Also, lead bullets start to strip if pushed to hard, barrels foul rather quickly, and accuracy seems to go to hell.

Perhaps others have had different experiences, the above are mine.

Stephen A. Camp · August 27, 2000, 06:30 PM

Hello all and thanks for the nice words, RR.
Alan, your experience exactly mirrors mine when using cast bullets in the HP! When I cast my own out of pure linotype, the leading went away from the form before only to remanifest itself in the form of "stalactites" hanging down in my bbl after but a few shots! Cast bullet loads will work in the HP, but expect some leading. I have never found a cast load that will match the grouping ability of several better jacketed loads. IF you really want to shoot cast bullets in the HP, I suggest going with the BarSto bbl. It's lands and groove dimensions are said to be more tolerant of lead and I know that the 1:16 twist is better for such rounds. I do shoot cast bullets in my HPs, but only when shooting in bulk for practice at larger targets such as self-defense practice at IPSC targets. For a match, I'd go with an accurate jacketed load at the same power level or more. Coating lead bullets with sprayed-on moly has helped reduce leading, but has done nothing to help (or hurt) group size. Best.

August 14, 2000, 02:17 PM	#1
jdthaddeus Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 1999 Location: Az Posts: 470	Hello all, I am looking to make some 9mm loads that shoot similar to my carry ammo, so they need to be a bit hot. As for powders, I tend to prefer Accurate #5, Titegroup, WST, and maybe Power Pistol. I am open to suggestions, but it would be nice to stick with what I know. So far, looking at a couple of manuals, it looks like Titegroup might give me pretty good velocities at lower pressures than most. And, AA#5 seems to give good velocity (1200fps listed) but no pressure listing is given. I was hoping for at least 1200fps for a 124gr bullet. Nothing nuclear, but a bit hot. I would not mind going hotter than that, but that is minimal. I am wondering first of all what pressure max is for a 9mm, because most loads I find in manuals list around 28,000-32,000cup and I believe that 9mm can go a lot hotter than that. Power Pistol lists the hottest load I can find which is a 125gr FMJ load at 1235fps and 34k pressure, and if I am not mistaken, that is still below pressure max for a 9mm. Any help developing this load would be appreciated. I am shooting a G19 and tend to carry for defense 124gr +P such as Gold Dots offered by Proload or Speer, as well as Corbon. As I said, the idea is to develop a load for practice that imitates my carry ammo. Thanks! Ps- I will be shooting lead at times from an aftermarket barrel, as well as FMJ for practice, so loads for both are needed.

August 14, 2000, 06:04 PM	#2
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	For stupid loads please e-mail me direct. "They call me Major Nine" ------------------ "All my ammo is factory ammo"

August 15, 2000, 06:10 AM	#3
Stephen A. Camp Staff In Memoriam Join Date: April 16, 1999 Posts: 2,570	Hello. I've had excellent luck with the following: 124 gr Hornady XTP/6.0 gr Unique/Federal SP Primer/FC or WW cases, LOA ~ 1.11". Average Vel from Browning HP ~ 1243ft/sec. Average Velocity increases to 1285 ft/sec if you moly-coat the bullet. This round has proven very accurate. Best.

August 15, 2000, 09:26 PM	#4
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	DESTRUCTIVE LOAD PRESSURE DATA!!! THESE LOADS EXCEED SAAMI SPECS. THEY ARE INTENDED TO RESULT IN CATASTROPHIC FAILURE OF THE FIREARM AND/OR THE RELOADED COMPONENTS AS A MEANS TOWARD COMPILING LOAD PRESSURE DATA. [/B] The book load is Hornady 124 gr FMJ FP 1.140" 6.6 gr Power Pistol. I have done 7.6 gr 1.168" [+P+] I have done [+P+++] with other powders. [This message has been edited by Clark (edited August 22, 2000).]

August 15, 2000, 10:40 PM	#5
alan Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Posts: 3,847	My copy of Accurate Loading Manual, #1, page 88 lists the following loads in 125 grain bullets, what apperars below are the maximum loads with Accurate #5 125 Grain lead rn 6.2 grains, 1133ft/sec 32800 cup Hornady 124 grain rn 6.4 grains 1200 ft/sec 33,000cup Saami maximum average pressure 33,000 cup

August 17, 2000, 09:44 PM	#6
jdthaddeus Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 1999 Location: Az Posts: 470	Thanks so far. I think I am going to go with about 6.7 gr of Power Pistol, which is max according to the Alliant manual, and it is still only 34k pressure. I am told that the max pressure for 9mm according to American standards is 38K (SAAMI) and that Europeans usually load it higher, like American +P (42K). I think I will be very safe at around 34k and I will be getting 1250fps from a 124gr bullet. That should give me a good lead in my attempt to find a practice load that matches my carry load.

August 18, 2000, 01:51 AM	#7
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	DESTRUCTIVE LOAD PRESSURE DATA!!! THESE LOADS EXCEED SAAMI SPECS. THEY ARE INTENDED TO RESULT IN CATASTROPHIC FAILURE OF THE FIREARM AND/OR THE RELOADED COMPONENTS AS A MEANS TOWARD COMPILING LOAD PRESSURE DATA. [/B] Tonight I shot 8.7 gr AA#5 124 gr FMJ FP Hornady, 1.169" 9mm [48,000 cup]. I also shot 8.4 gr Power Pistol 124 gr FMJ FP Hornady, 1.169" 9mm [51,000 psi]. [This message has been edited by Clark (edited August 18, 2000).] [This message has been edited by Clark (edited August 18, 2000).] [This message has been edited by Clark (edited August 22, 2000).]

August 18, 2000, 08:24 AM	#8
BMiracle Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2000 Posts: 159	Before you decide, look into BlueDot. I have some loads with 124 gr GoldDots that are pushing 1300 fps out of my Beretta 92. (Little lower with a 4" barrel) Can't remember off hand how much powder. BlueDot is a slower burning powder that is used for magnum loads. I guess these are 9mm Magnums! Either way, they shoot good with not too much recoil. Look it up in the books.

August 19, 2000, 01:21 AM	#9
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	DESTRUCTIVE LOAD PRESSURE DATA!!! THESE LOADS EXCEED SAAMI SPECS. THEY ARE INTENDED TO RESULT IN CATASTROPHIC FAILURE OF THE FIREARM AND/OR THE RELOADED COMPONENTS AS A MEANS TOWARD COMPILING LOAD PRESSURE DATA. [/B] I can only get 10.1 gr of Blue Dot in a 9mm case before seating the bullet to compress it. At 1.169" 124 gr, 42k psi is all the more I can get. At 147 gr only 8.7 gr of Blue Dot is needed to get 51k psi. The bulky slow powder does well in the heavy wieght class. Power Pistol wins at 124 gr and Blue Dot beats Power Pistol at 147 gr. [This message has been edited by Clark (edited August 22, 2000).]

August 19, 2000, 04:16 AM	#10
jdthaddeus Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 1999 Location: Az Posts: 470	Clark, thanks for the tips. How can you measure pressure anyway, without expensive equipment? What were the velocities on those loads? Lastly, if I am shooting 124gr hardcast lead bullets, and I only have data for FMJ bullets, then how much powder do I use? Is there a "formula" to firgure out how much powder to use in a lead bullet? Like "increase the powder charge by X% weight when switching from FMJ to lead"? I know that 124gr FMJ takes 6.7gr of Power Pistol to get 1250fps and a little more than 34k psi. So...how much Power Pistol should I load if I am using a 125gr lead bullet instead? [This message has been edited by jdthaddeus (edited August 19, 2000).]

August 19, 2000, 08:38 AM	#11
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	I used the ratios from Lee's "Modern Reloading": 1) If a bullet gets 10% then the velocity looses 4% and the pressure gains 8%. 2) If powder gains 10%, then the velocity gains 8%, and the pressure 20%. 3) If the powder space goes up 10% then the velocity looses 4% and the pressure looses 13%. Lead bullets should take approximately the same amount of powder. They might need a litle more becuse of less friction and force to deform. The difference would be small compared to the change when you go +P+.

August 25, 2000, 02:16 AM	#12
Rocky Road Retired Screen Name Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 167	CAUTION: The following entry contains load data which exceeds published values. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK! jd-- I can only echo the load suggested by Steve Camp, above: Hornady 124 gr. XTP with 6.0 gr. Unique. Quite good accuracy and function in one Browning High Power and several Kel-Tec P- 11 pistols. I have used the same information with other bullets, as well--Zero brand FMJ and Ranier plated, both old single-strike (not near so accurate) and later double-strike versions. Oh, yeah, also in a Mark II Sten Gun, a Madsen SMG, and two different MP-5s. My chronograph results closely follow Steve's, except that I never messed with the moly coating. PLEASE NOTE: Speer factory 124 Gold Dot HP loads chronographed at 1115 fps from my Inglis No. 2 Mk. 1* High Power. The 124/6 Unique load betters this noticibly. Instrumentation: Oehler Model 43 with third, check screen. I obtained this load from Mr. Camp when I first got my Dillon 550B loader in 1991. My experience is limited to perhaps 3,000 such loads. This is a drop in the bucket compared to Steve's background with the 9x19. He has long been the local guru of SANE niner mike mike information. The Power Pistol load you found sounds as if it would be satisfactory. If you just want to duplicate the Speer Gold Dot factory load, though, you don't need to go near that warm. From your other, closely related, topic--- have you reached any conclusions about the 125 LEAD 9 mm load? Best regards-- RR CAUTION: The foregoing entry contains load data which exceeds published values. ------------------ ---The Second Amendment ensures the rest of the Bill of Rights---

August 27, 2000, 05:20 PM	#13
alan Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Posts: 3,847	Just a brief word about the 9mm round, based on my experence shooting a browning hi-powewr and a star model 30. The browning is somewhat the worse for wear, having sheared a cam block at one time. Seems as if the 10 twist is not the best for lead bullets. When S & w changed from 1 in 10 to 1 in 18.75, group size in their old model 39's was cut sharply. Also, lead bullets start to strip if pushed to hard, barrels foul rather quickly, and accuracy seems to go to hell. Perhaps others have had different experiences, the above are mine.

August 27, 2000, 06:30 PM	#14
Stephen A. Camp Staff In Memoriam Join Date: April 16, 1999 Posts: 2,570	Hello all and thanks for the nice words, RR. Alan, your experience exactly mirrors mine when using cast bullets in the HP! When I cast my own out of pure linotype, the leading went away from the form before only to remanifest itself in the form of "stalactites" hanging down in my bbl after but a few shots! Cast bullet loads will work in the HP, but expect some leading. I have never found a cast load that will match the grouping ability of several better jacketed loads. IF you really want to shoot cast bullets in the HP, I suggest going with the BarSto bbl. It's lands and groove dimensions are said to be more tolerant of lead and I know that the 1:16 twist is better for such rounds. I do shoot cast bullets in my HPs, but only when shooting in bulk for practice at larger targets such as self-defense practice at IPSC targets. For a match, I'd go with an accurate jacketed load at the same power level or more. Coating lead bullets with sprayed-on moly has helped reduce leading, but has done nothing to help (or hurt) group size. Best.