Noob to straight wall cases needs help with .45-70

jeo556 · September 16, 2009, 07:15 PM

Like the title says, I've never reloaded a straight wall case until this evening. From what I was previously told it's an easy task but I'm having trouble anyway.

So here goes, I'm working withe a Lee three die set(full length sizing die, patented powder through expanding die, bullet seating die) and I also purchased the lee factory crimp die as well.

I set the full length sizing die per Lee's recomendations, no problem there.

I set the expanding die as per Lee's specs, possible problem here. I think.

I set the seating die as per Lee's spec's, possible problem here as well.

When I expand the neck of the case, I only flare maybe the first 16th. of an inch, maybe less. The instructions say just to flare enough so that the bullet can seat.

So here's the problem, the bullet seats but it seats with a bulge on one side of the case. Say 40-60% of the circumfrence of the case, and they do not cycle properly in my Marlin GG. You can see the bulge and feel it as well.

Should I be expanding more of the neck? A pic of a properly flared case would be great if anyone could provide. Should I flare the case about the length of the bullet that is in contact with the brass? The bulge isn't consistent around the whole case, could my dies be off center? I'm kinda at a loss here and any help would be greatly appreciated. Additional info below.

Bullet: Speer 300 gr. UC FNHP .458 Cal(obviously)
Press: RCBS rock chucker
Dies: As stated earlier, LEE three die set.

RKG · September 16, 2009, 08:05 PM

The problem is not with the depth of your "flare" (what we call "bell"), but with the diameter of the expander plug versus the diameter of your bullets.

Start by miking your expander (the cylindrical part, not the belling part) and your slugs. If you're shooting cast slugs, inquire as to their sized spec. Nominal slug diameter for a .45-70 is 0.458".

Note, just to pick a small nit, that the .45-70 Government case is not technically a "straight wall" case, but, rather, a tapered case. The nominal spec for case diameter immediately in front of the rim of 0.505", while that for the OD at the case mouth is 0.480".

SQUAREKNOT · September 16, 2009, 10:09 PM

Mic your bullets? Also it sounds like your seating die is not centering the bullet. Try seating it about 1/3 and then rotating the round 1/3 and seating a bit more. The OAL in a lever gun is critical, at least on my Marlin.
A friend one time tried to GIVE me a bunch of .38 and .357's that were as you are seeing. They would not chamber at all. even with a hammer I would bet so be sure you got the right dia bullets. My friends must have never been sized

Christchild · September 16, 2009, 10:37 PM

Make sure Your cases are uniform in length to get a uniform bell and uniform crimp. The belling should be along the lines of 1/16" and 1/8" of case length. You should see a slight flare. As said previously, check to make sure You received bullets of correct diameter.

You can use a little Mica or Powdered Graphite on the bullet so it doesn't produce quite as much friction.

Try belling a case mouth a little more (1/8"), prime and charge, and seat another bullet. Set the bullet on the case mouth, raise it up to the Seater Die, feel it just touch, back it down, turn the cartridge a Half Turn, raise it up again 'til it touches, apply a little pressure, seat it A LITTLE more, back it down again. Each time You back the cartridge out after slightly seating, turn about a quarter turn, seat a little bit more. Repeat this until You're at the top of Your Ram Stroke, but always making sure You're not seating too deep, as Lever Guns (if You have a Lever Action Rifle) are critical to Cartridge OverAll Length, which I'm sure You know.

bfoosh006 · September 16, 2009, 10:48 PM

Sounds like your seating die is off center, or your shell holder is goofed up. Try setting up your seating die with a factory round,...

Remove the bullet seater, raise the "ram" ( with the factory round inserted )screw the die down to the factory rounds crimp line ( you may need to adjust this 1/4 to 1/2 a turn later ), lock down the dies lock ring, insert the bullet seating die, thread 'er down to the bullets tip or ogive, secure it... remove the factory round completely...

Now try seating one of you reloads.

Does it still do it ?

jeo556 · September 17, 2009, 09:05 AM

Thanks for the responses guys. I appreciate them.

So far I did mic the bullets, out of the 20 that I had loaded(I've since taken everything apart) all miked at .458" like they are supposed to. Every case that I loaded was trimmed to the trim-to length. When I looked at the cases after the "belling" with the expander die, all the cases looked uniform. A slight bell of the case mouth approximately 1/16". And finally I was really slow and deliberate when pulling the press' arm. Much more careful then when I reload for my .25-06. The only thing that I have yet to check is the expander plug, I'll get to that later this evening. BTW, I also measured the overall length of every completed cartridge and they were all balls-on at 2.530" like the manual stated. I'm pretty sure that the lack of cycling was due to the bulge.
Please let me clarify as well, the cases did cycle, but it was very difficult and required a two-stage motion of the lever.

What are the chances that the expander plug isn't the correct diameter? What are the chances that the seating die is off-center?

P.S. I'm using a lee shellholder with a RBCS press, could that be the culprit?

BigJakeJ1s · September 17, 2009, 08:10 PM

Quote:

What are the chances that the expander plug isn't the correct diameter?

For an expanding die, do yourself a favor and get a Redding or Lyman M-type expander die. You won't regret it. The M type expander has a profile that expands and bells the case mouth with specific sections of the plug, shaped accordingly:

Compare that to the shape (and finish) of the Lee expander:

Quote:

What are the chances that the seating die is off-center?

My experience with Lee seating dies has not been good. I don't know about their 45-70 seater plug, but many of their seaters share the same exact plug for multiple calibers (bullet diameters, not just cartridges). That can't be doing any good for centering.

I've had much better results with Hornady and Forster seating dies. Forster does not make a 45-70 die, but Redding makes a similar (and more expensive) seater in their Competition Seating die. Hornady has the same kind of sliding alignment sleeve, except it only engages the case neck, not the shoulder and part of the body like a Forster or Redding Comp seater. On the other hand, for a straight taper cartridge like the 45-70, I doubt there's much difference in effect (no shoulder, etc). You can add the optional micrometer adjuster to the Hornady if desired. It comes with a great cross-bolt lock ring (similar to Forster), and it also disassembles for cleaning with no tools, while still on the press, and goes back together with messing up the settings. What's not to like?

Keep your Lee FCD; the collet style ones for rifle and bottleneck pistol cartridges are great; the straight wall cartridge CFCDs, not so much. But I'd replace the Lee lock-less ring with a Forster or Hornady cross-bolt lock ring.

I doubt your Lee shell holder is part of the problem.

Andy

September 16, 2009, 07:15 PM	#1
jeo556 Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2007 Location: Southwestern, PA Posts: 268	Noob to straight wall cases needs help with .45-70 Like the title says, I've never reloaded a straight wall case until this evening. From what I was previously told it's an easy task but I'm having trouble anyway. So here goes, I'm working withe a Lee three die set(full length sizing die, patented powder through expanding die, bullet seating die) and I also purchased the lee factory crimp die as well. I set the full length sizing die per Lee's recomendations, no problem there. I set the expanding die as per Lee's specs, possible problem here. I think. I set the seating die as per Lee's spec's, possible problem here as well. When I expand the neck of the case, I only flare maybe the first 16th. of an inch, maybe less. The instructions say just to flare enough so that the bullet can seat. So here's the problem, the bullet seats but it seats with a bulge on one side of the case. Say 40-60% of the circumfrence of the case, and they do not cycle properly in my Marlin GG. You can see the bulge and feel it as well. Should I be expanding more of the neck? A pic of a properly flared case would be great if anyone could provide. Should I flare the case about the length of the bullet that is in contact with the brass? The bulge isn't consistent around the whole case, could my dies be off center? I'm kinda at a loss here and any help would be greatly appreciated. Additional info below. Bullet: Speer 300 gr. UC FNHP .458 Cal(obviously) Press: RCBS rock chucker Dies: As stated earlier, LEE three die set. __________________ Jeo556

September 17, 2009, 09:05 AM	#6
jeo556 Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2007 Location: Southwestern, PA Posts: 268	Thanks for the responses guys. I appreciate them. So far I did mic the bullets, out of the 20 that I had loaded(I've since taken everything apart) all miked at .458" like they are supposed to. Every case that I loaded was trimmed to the trim-to length. When I looked at the cases after the "belling" with the expander die, all the cases looked uniform. A slight bell of the case mouth approximately 1/16". And finally I was really slow and deliberate when pulling the press' arm. Much more careful then when I reload for my .25-06. The only thing that I have yet to check is the expander plug, I'll get to that later this evening. BTW, I also measured the overall length of every completed cartridge and they were all balls-on at 2.530" like the manual stated. I'm pretty sure that the lack of cycling was due to the bulge. Please let me clarify as well, the cases did cycle, but it was very difficult and required a two-stage motion of the lever. What are the chances that the expander plug isn't the correct diameter? What are the chances that the seating die is off-center? P.S. I'm using a lee shellholder with a RBCS press, could that be the culprit? __________________ Jeo556

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September 16, 2009, 08:05 PM	#2
RKG Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2009 Location: Boston Posts: 562	The problem is not with the depth of your "flare" (what we call "bell"), but with the diameter of the expander plug versus the diameter of your bullets. Start by miking your expander (the cylindrical part, not the belling part) and your slugs. If you're shooting cast slugs, inquire as to their sized spec. Nominal slug diameter for a .45-70 is 0.458". Note, just to pick a small nit, that the .45-70 Government case is not technically a "straight wall" case, but, rather, a tapered case. The nominal spec for case diameter immediately in front of the rim of 0.505", while that for the OD at the case mouth is 0.480".

September 16, 2009, 10:09 PM	#3
SQUAREKNOT Senior Member Join Date: July 16, 2008 Posts: 263	Mic your bullets? Also it sounds like your seating die is not centering the bullet. Try seating it about 1/3 and then rotating the round 1/3 and seating a bit more. The OAL in a lever gun is critical, at least on my Marlin. A friend one time tried to GIVE me a bunch of .38 and .357's that were as you are seeing. They would not chamber at all. even with a hammer I would bet so be sure you got the right dia bullets. My friends must have never been sized

September 16, 2009, 10:37 PM	#4
Christchild Senior Member Join Date: June 19, 2009 Location: Loadbenchville, Bolt 02770 Posts: 544	Make sure Your cases are uniform in length to get a uniform bell and uniform crimp. The belling should be along the lines of 1/16" and 1/8" of case length. You should see a slight flare. As said previously, check to make sure You received bullets of correct diameter. You can use a little Mica or Powdered Graphite on the bullet so it doesn't produce quite as much friction. Try belling a case mouth a little more (1/8"), prime and charge, and seat another bullet. Set the bullet on the case mouth, raise it up to the Seater Die, feel it just touch, back it down, turn the cartridge a Half Turn, raise it up again 'til it touches, apply a little pressure, seat it A LITTLE more, back it down again. Each time You back the cartridge out after slightly seating, turn about a quarter turn, seat a little bit more. Repeat this until You're at the top of Your Ram Stroke, but always making sure You're not seating too deep, as Lever Guns (if You have a Lever Action Rifle) are critical to Cartridge OverAll Length, which I'm sure You know.

September 16, 2009, 10:48 PM	#5
bfoosh006 Senior Member Join Date: February 17, 2009 Posts: 1,089	Sounds like your seating die is off center, or your shell holder is goofed up. Try setting up your seating die with a factory round,... Remove the bullet seater, raise the "ram" ( with the factory round inserted )screw the die down to the factory rounds crimp line ( you may need to adjust this 1/4 to 1/2 a turn later ), lock down the dies lock ring, insert the bullet seating die, thread 'er down to the bullets tip or ogive, secure it... remove the factory round completely... Now try seating one of you reloads. Does it still do it ?