What to look for in a bear defense shotgun?

[arentol]

Originally Posted by Gehrhard

And 10 hard .36 caliber pellets' KO? What's the value of most hitting your target simultaneously vs. a miss with a slug?

This is an invalid argument because by definition if you would miss with a slug then best case scenario only half your pellets would hit the target, and odds are only about 35% of the pellets will hit the target. Then on top of that odds are that all of those hits will be flesh wounds.

The real problem with your argument Gehrhard is that it is only valid if the person firing the gun misses. I am sorry, but no option is good if you miss, so it is better to take the option that is 10 times better if you hit than the one that is a little better if you happen to just barely miss.

[hogdogs]

If a bear is runnin' in my general direction at 100 yards, the gun goes to mount and if I still feel a threat I am immediately droppin' the hammer... I hope he is still 80 yards out in case I need another shot.

That distance requires a big heavy gob of lead.

I am a chicken...If he gets within buck shot range, I won't need a gun at all... just step back as he leaps and he will slip and fall in my various waste matter and break his fool neck just like on cartoons!

Brent

[Alaska444]

100 yards may seem like a long distance in between, but in reality, it is only a few seconds away from you at that distance. Take a look at a charging grizzly hugging the tree line for cover.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3VdxHvQqsk

Black bears that are predatory are noted for slow persistent stalking approaches. In that situation, I know what to do. The grizzly is a scary critter in full charge and I hope to NEVER see it up close and personal even with my trusty woods guns.

But yes, I agree, a big chunk of heavy lead flying towards the critter is good medicine to stop a bear charge.

[Gehrhard]

I'll use large copper-plated lead pepper-spray at closer range instead of relying on multiple accurate shots at 80 yards or more to stop a charging bear.

[shortwave]

^^^...and put salt and pepper on my tush so I'll be nice and tasty for Mr Brown Bear...

There, finished it for ya Gehrhard. ...

...Me thinks your just promoting the vid. you shot that was posted by duelist1954 over on the 'Black Powder and Cowboy Action Shooting' forum titled 'Totally Politically Incorrect'. That was you in the vid wasn't it???

FWIW,
buckshot for 'teddy' bears , slugs for 'real' bears.

[Alaska444]

Well, when we get a 12 ga buckshot that can do what the Garrett Hammerhead does, then we might have something to debate:

"This grizzly was killed in Spatsizi Plateau Wilderness Park in the Eagle Nest Mountain Range of Northern British Columbia. He squared over 8 feet and the skull measured 23 13/16'', which is very good size for an interior mountain grizzly bear. When I shot the bear, he had started a charge from about 70 yards away, and by the time I had a sight on him, he was 40 yards. The 540 Hammerhead hit him right between the front legs, and he did a complete front-wards flip after the bullet hit him. That bullet completely penetrated him lengthwise and exited. I made a follow up shot (which was unnecessary, just instinct) after he rolled which angled through the chest, took out a section of spine, and exited the top of his skull (if you look closely at the photo you can see the exit hole in his head). Very impressive bullet performance."

- Tyler Serle, Albuquerque, British Columbia

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/4570reviews.html

[Gehrhard]

From another thread...
"I lived in Alaska for seven years. (1969-76) When it came to bear protection and after using a .44 mag on a large moose, I was totally unimpressed with it. Know they now have much more powerful handguns today.

What I carried when fishing was a over the shoulder slung, 18 1/4" barreled two row 12 loaded with triple ought buck in 3 inch shells. One could carry slugs, but at close range, I wanted to be able to take out all a bears sensory apparatus with one front on shot. To include it's sight, hearing and smell..."

By the way, I defy any American here who isn't in prison to admit they shot and killed a "charging" bear that was 40 yards away where it wasn't in season and they had a stamp...

[shortwave]

^^^Proves Nothing^^^

You say you found A post from another thread agreeing with yours thoughts on 000 buck for SD against big bear.

How many hundred posts in those other threads did you skip over 'not agreeing' with this line of thought searching for the ONE that agrees with you....

...by the way, can you post the thread that says that?

Too, you also found ONE article where a guy killed a bear with a 22lr. Why not just carry a 22 for SD against bear.

[hogdogs]

I am highly doubtful that a jury of my peers would find me guilty if my mouthpiece shows them how far the encounter began, how far away bear was when threat has ceased...

But I challenge you to show me how many have ever been incarcerated (not arrested) for shooting a bear in self defense at or beyond 40 yards.

Brent

[shortwave]

By the way, I defy any American here who isn't in prison to admit they shot and killed a 'charging' bear that was 40 yards away...

You can believe one thing, if yours truely is ever out in the tundra and a bear starts charging me from afar and doesn't cease from a distance in which I feel comfortable with, damn the law, I'm gonna try to kill it.

The reason' I ' is darkened is the fact that the judge and jury probably won't be out there in the tundra at the time to help me with the legal aspects of saving my butt.

I'd rather answer question in a court room than get eaten alive by any animal.

[Willie Lowman]

Biggest bears around our neck of the woods are black bears, Shortwave. I saw one dead on 33 last summer.


I don't know about you but that's as big a bear as I need to be around. Brown bears? Grizzly bears? I'll stay in Ohio, thanks.

[shortwave]

[shortwave]

+1 Willie on black bears around here.

Where abouts on 33 was the dead bear? Didn't hear of that one.

Friend of mine lives on Murphy Rd. off of Pleasant Valley. Murphy dead ends into Lake Logan on the back side of the lake. Anyway, they saw a blacky bent over in a 55gal. trash drum the park keeps on the road at the turn around by the lake. A lot of people go there to fish but mostly young kids drinking. Bear was probably drunk when it left.

Too, several sightings and tracks over the years around 'Ole Mans Cave' and Clearcreek Metro Park area's and I've found tracks here on our property last fall just below the house here, but have never seen any bears. Don't really care to.

Did see a momma with two cubs down below Junction City, Ohio in a mowed corn field when I was a kid on a family deer hunting trip though. We were spotlighting at night(used to be legal here as long as you had no weapons in your vehicle).
When we reported this to ODNR the next day, they denied bears were in the area at first but when they found out that four of us saw them and that my two brothers and I were humming ears of corn at them, a ranger finally told us they knew the bears were there but didn't want it publicized for fear of poaching.

[Willie Lowman]

[Willie Lowman]

It was between 328 and 595 on the side headed toward Nelsonville. Just past the Hocking Valley Concrete plant. It was August when I saw it.

I have heard of tracks being found near Rockbridge but I have never seen them for myself.

[shortwave]

Know right where your talking about. Shame he got hit. Probably will account for another 'sasquatch' sighting from whomever hit it.

[Nnobby45]

Bear defense with a rifle is all about penetration. Sorry, but I would not trust buck shot for deep penetration and be able to crash through bone after going through the tough hide of a bear.

Only chance you have with heavy buckshot is if the bear is so close the shot is so close together that you might as well be using slugs-----which is what you should be using. I'm talking about big bears.

Interesting that a number of people have recommended buckshot who never shot a bear using the stuff. I think the Alaska State Troopers got it right if they're using 3" Black Magic Brennekes, as has been indicated.

Brennekes are hard. Fosters are soft. Which one do you want if your projectile must penetrate tough hide, heavy bone, and reach the vitals?

[TheKlawMan]

The Alaska Department of Fish & Game, which is obvioulsy against the use of firearms for bear protection, says if you use one make it a .300 Magnum rifle or a 12 gauge with rifled slugs.

[Alaska444]

Yes, buckshot should work well if you can get it right next to the bear's ear. Just have the bear pose for a couple of seconds and put it right in the ear and pull the trigger. You could probably kill it with a .22 using that technique as well. Should be 100% fatal every time.

[Gehrhard]

Who said never shot a bear with buckshot? And not necessarily even plated 000 3". You're kidding -- you know it is common, right!?

Really time to start the He Man Woman Haters Mall Ninja Arms & Ammo Forum here...

[hogdogs]

gehr, You go srtart your new forum right up...

You are the one who refuses to accept consensus on this issue
I was going to get the Thunder 5 for a hog self defense gun. But I figure by ther time a threat is realized (few pigs want to run you through when confronted), I wouldn't get it drawn and then it will be me trying to singe his hair with the muzzle blast. Since I would be in this compromised position, I would just get my buck 110 up in his boiler room and pump house...

But for a real bear (not a 250-300# fla blackie)... I will be engaged in a risk assessment as soon as I know the bear is headed my way. As I verify readiness of my weapon he might get a single "I DON'T THINK SO YOGI!!!" yell but then I go slinging slugs...

So few folks suggest buckshot and the ones who are giving advice with bear experience of more than sight-seer hunt guide status always suggest slug or big powerful rifle rounds...

I wouldn't even consider a tungsten buckshot at any price over the cheapest rifled slugs I am familiar with.

Using an old water tank as my current lead sponge, I find that even my soft slugs go in with a clean hole about the size of the slug and exit at more than an inch in diameter...

Only a hardened buck ball could possibly even penetrate the front side at 20 yards from a 2 3/4" shell...

Brent

[shortwave]

Who said never shot a bear with buckshot

Again, if I'm out in the tundra in big bear country , didn't properly prepare myself with slugs for my shotgun and the only thing I had was buckshot, sure I'd shoot a charging bear with it. Hell, for that matter, if all I had was a knife or stick,I'd have to defend myself with whatever I had.
Course, I'd have to wait till the charging bear was nearly on top of me using the buckshot, knife or stick.

But, if I knew I was going into big bear country and my choice of firearm was a shotgun for defense against big bear, I would properly prepare for my trip and the ammo for the shotgun would be hardcast slugs.

[shortwave]

Gehrhard,

This thread is 6 pages long and from the onset you have promoted buckshot for big bear defense. But you have yet to recommend a reliable source that would back your claim.

You have been given credible sources that recommend slugs. I.E. Alaska Fish and Game, Alaska State Troopers and actual posts on this thread of members that actually live in regions with big brownies. These sources actually live where big bears roam and have ample experience and opportunity dealing with them.

Since your giving advice to anyone that clicks on and reads this thread... and the fact that this whole topic of slugs versus buckshot for defense against big bear is a life threatening situation:

1. Could you please explain what gives you the experience/knowledge or qualifies you to rebut what these credible sources that have years of dealing with big bears advise?

2.Also, Could you cite just one credible source that recommends your buckshot load for defense against big bears over a slug?

Too, you earlier posted of a post you said you found on another forum agreeing with you. Not hardly a reputable source. Just another ill-informed person that's more subject to be 'Mr. Browny's' supper.

The earlier 'post' you cited was from:
The Highroad(THR)...

...the thread was titled:
'Alaska Fishing Safety'....
...which is mostly about where and times to fish in Alaska (i.e. local fishing spots or remote, charter trips,etc.)

You really need to go back and read the whole, two page closed thread because as suspected, there are four other posts on that thread that recommend to use slugs in a shotgun for bear defense while out fishing.

One of which is from a native Alaskan that has been charged twice by browny's....

...and this is coming from your source!

[Gehrhard]

I didn't want to mention a competitior's site. And seems but for one of you, you've never actually even BEEN to Alaska. All hat.

[Alaska444]

Hmmmm, I grew up there. How about you. When was the last time you went to the state?