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Old April 1, 2006, 11:47 PM   #26
Pointer
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The point is that if he'd used a 9 or .45 there would be more people dead.

It is also a point that the dead MIGHT have died faster.

Read the original message of the thread-start... PLEASE.
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Old April 3, 2006, 01:34 AM   #27
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Pointer wrote:

Quote:
The point is that if he'd used a 9 or .45 there would be more people dead.
How can you say that? That doesn't make sense. If he hit 5 people in the right spot to result in a kill, it doesn't matter if he hit them with a .22, .45, an rpg, or a freakin howitzer.....dead is still dead.

It would stand to reason that a .22 would give you greater range, more ammo capacity before reloading, and much greater accuracy due to little or no recoil.

So there is absolutely no fact to your statement that a larger caliber results in more deaths.
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Old April 3, 2006, 03:55 AM   #28
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In reference to Mark Coats, he was tragically unlucky but also made one critical tactical error. Trooper Coats asked his murderer if he had any weapons. The murderer responded in the affirmative, but Coats didn't hear/listen. Such a small error, which any of us could have commited, cost a brave young life.
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Old April 3, 2006, 08:06 PM   #29
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Quote:
dead is still dead.
There are only three ways a bullet kills...

Bleed out - requires time

Nerve center shock - incapacitates immediately

Destruction of vital organs - speed of death falls somewhere between the first two.

I can't help but wonder why the other 5 victims didn't die??

Please see my post #24 above


That's how I can say that...
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Old April 3, 2006, 08:44 PM   #30
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What you want to do is hit between the upper lip and the top of the eyes, this area is soft tissue leading directly to the brain. No fancy angles needed, just good shot placement.
Blackwater OPS,

How do you know that? I said almost the exact same thing awhile back and got into quite a debate with someone on this forum because he replied with this:
Quote:
Then you were told by a person who enjoys blatant over-simplification or has an amazingly poor understanding of terminal ballistics.
Actually this is what I said:
Quote:
I was told once that a sniper will aim for a spot just below the nose and that will shut off a man like a light switch.
And it turned into a not so nice discussion and I have not heard a peep out of him since. I know I was correct but I was just wondering where you got your information.
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Old April 3, 2006, 09:12 PM   #31
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Pointer, while I am in agreement personally that a higher caliber weapon tends to be a bit more destructive percentage wise, (which is why I carry a .45) I can't honestly say that I know for a fact hitting a guy 2x com with a .45 would kill him any quicker than 2x com with a .22. I mean, it stands to reason that the .45 would kill more efficiently, but I couldn't call it an etched in stone fact. Not when people have survived both, for unknown reasons.

I just can't buy into the idea that a higher caliber weapon automatically results in more deaths.....
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Old April 3, 2006, 10:01 PM   #32
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How do you know that?
Well the way I said it, it is a medical fact. I am not claiming to know all possible results of such a shot, but the area I mentioned is "soft tissue", in other words not bone, and behind that is the brain. That is an objective statement, but as to it being an instant kill everytime or something, thats conjecture.
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Old April 3, 2006, 10:22 PM   #33
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Quote:
automatically results in more deaths.....
I don think so either...

I simply believe in taking every edge I can get...

That's why I want MOA... and bolt action... and non-shiny rifles... and camo quiet clothing... and a bigger drill when I'm looking for a gusher...
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Old April 3, 2006, 10:47 PM   #34
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After following this thread I feel compelled to share my "real life experiences" about the effects of larger caliber weapons. Having witnessed many men shot during my two tours in Vietnam some with the M-14 (7.62/.308) the smaller M-16 (5.56/.223) and myself with the AK47 (7.62x39). I can say the larger round is definately more destructive. While the 5.56/.223 bullet enters the body, it quickly turns sideways after passing through only 4" of flesh, then breaks in two major pieces, as well as many smaller fragments. On many occasions shooting an enemy soldier with the M-16 did not kill as quickly as the 30 caliber weapons. Instead we would follow a massive trail a blood a few feet away from where the enemy soldier had been hit to find him dead from massive blood loss.
On the other hand the 7.62/.308, upon entering a fleshy target, the 7.62 bullet travels straight nearly six inches before the massive shock wave ahead of the bullet transfers incredible energy into the target as the bullet begins to tumble. Thus the bullet can exit before the maximum shock wave expansion can occur. The 30 caliber rifle bullets of this type are known to knock men down, and throw them off their feet back some distance and make an incredible wound. During my entire tour in country I chose to carry the M-14.
The 7.62x39 while not quite as devastating as the 30 caliber rounds is still quite deadly having an unusual tendency to remain intact even after taking unusual deviations upon contact with bone.
A remarkable story is about my son's father-in-law who was a medic with the 5th Special Forces Group when he was shot by a sniper behind the right ear and the bullet (a 7.62x39) exited thru the roof of his mouth! He recovered and returned to Vietnam for his second tour of duty. In fact he has written several books about his experiences in Vietnam including this one HERE.

Now as far as using a .22, well it's been known that "hitmen" have used .22's as the weapon of choice. Ya know, a couple in the ear or in the back of the head, up close and personal. That would do the job and not get real messy.

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Old April 4, 2006, 10:37 AM   #35
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Out in the country we all know all bullets can kill.

I hunt a lot, kill a lot of large animals. Most with a .22

Hunted wild pigs years ago with a pack of dogs, they would hold a large pig until Icould shoot him with my yep .22

I was about 11 or so when I got my first .22, a single shot, I went out and shot a deer, killed him one shot. Dad kicked my butt and took it away.

I am a big fan of the .22, love it, seen a bear killed with one. Tricky but it is done all the time.
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Old April 4, 2006, 01:40 PM   #36
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Pointer.....point taken.

Markj, while I do believe in the killing power of the .22 and have hunted with it ALOT (and still do) for small game, I think I would want something a bit larger for....uhmm.....BEAR.....

Talk about betting your life on shot placement.....sheesh....
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Old April 4, 2006, 10:21 PM   #37
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I once killed a 'possom with a .177 10-pump BB gun. I was really close and hit him in the eye. Also doves.
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Old April 5, 2006, 08:28 AM   #38
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Well folks as an emergency vet I have seen a fair number of unlucky animals shot with a variety of weapons and I think that the following 2 conclusions apply:

1. Have an adequate round
2. Put it in an appropriate anatomic locations

The most memorable cases I have seen are:

1. Pit bull shot at close range between eyes --- weapon recovered by PD was a 357, however the bullet we recovered was a lead SWC, it had skimmed the bone and lodged under the muscles on top the head --- A target 38 load I suspect as I can’t imagine any serious 357 or 38 defense load doing that or not traveling further but then who knows, some damage to one of the eyes that required removal, adopted by a colleague of mine.

2. Pit bull (see a trend here) shot 3 times by PD with 40 cal service ammo, all 3 entrance wounds in the chest area, noting vital hit by any of them, 1 slug recovered from under the skin in the area of the abdomen (still have it sitting on my desk somewhere), animal survived with minimally intensive supportive care, no surgery required, had about 8 beer bottle caps in it’s stomach as an incidental finding on x-ray, barfed these up while in the hospital, found new home.

3. Yellow lab shot point blank in chest with 410 shot gun, patient again lived with minimal intensive care however required surgery after about 3 weeks of recurrent wound infection, the plastic shot wad was recovered from within the thorax, x-rays revealed a bird shot load and are very impressive as all of the pellets can be seen in the external thoracic muscles --- no appreciable penetration at all even from this close of a range. Animal adopted by the officer investigating the shooting who nailed the SOB in court.


So I’m sure my case selection is biased as a I don’t see the ones that die in the field, however I thought it might be interesting to some of you out there. Also of interest about 2 years ago I attended a seminar by an Army vet on their tramatology research --- you see time was that trauma surgeons looked at the size of a shock cavity that a given round made in gelatin and figured all of that tissue is toast and would take it out during the initial treatment if possible --- this lead to many radical surgeries that often produced a lot of disability and dysfunction and turns out was WRONG, tissue is surprisingly elastic and repairable and the size of the shock cavity means almost nothing --- to prove this they showed their experimental model which involved raising a flap of skin in a pig --- still attached and supplied by the pig’s blood vessels, shooting it, then stitching it back (basically a plastic surgery technique for experimental inquiry) and observing heeling --- they also had high speed photos of the shots – 223 would stretch and sling the tissue this way and that --- and in the end there would be local inflammation from the stretch damage and a 223 sized hole that healed rather well with appropriate treatment ---- I know it’s kind of looking at the whole thing from the reverse angle but I don’t know of a better way of illustrating that it’s going to be what anatomic structures are in the path of a projectile that determines it’s lethality --- which again leads back to use an adequate projectile and put it where it needs to be.
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Old April 5, 2006, 08:12 PM   #39
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Quote:
Talk about betting your life on shot placement.....sheesh....
LOL

+1
Quote:
skimmed the bone and lodged under the muscles on top the head --
A LEO friend on the Oakland Motor Squad was called to a bar to pick up a violent drunk... Everyone on the force knew who this guy was and when he was sober he was a pretty nice guy... When drunk he was unmanageable.

He was so big that, more often than not, it usually took severl people to hold and cuff him and get him into the patrol car...

My friend arrived first with his fellow motor man and they waited for the backup... soon it became obvious that they could no longer wait and they attempted to cuff the drunk without additional help... whoops!

They did eventually succeed and the guy kept fighting even though he was cuffed... My friend slammed him against the nearest vehicle and couldn't hold him there... His partner was watching their "six" and could help very much..

So... my friend told the perp that he was going to knock him out if he didn't calm down... He had to knocked him one (I think he hit him his .357) and then told the drunk if he didn't calm down he was going to shoot him...

He said, "Oh Yeah?" and he tried to turn his head against the muzzle of the gun... Still no backup and these guys were very tired and surrounded by very
anti-cop "on-lookers" and he fired the .357 muzzle against hism skull and the guy crumpled...

My friend was very broken up about it because he didn't want to "reallY" shoot him but there he was...

When the ambulance came to take the guy...who was remarkably, still alive!! my friend insisted on riding with him to the hospital.

There was a hole in the back of his head and a hole in his forehead and blood all over the place... In the ambulance the drunk came to...

As it turned out the bullet had entered at just the right angle and followed the scalp over the top and busted out fron his forehead...

My friend and the drunk are "friends" on a first name basis to this day... some 25 years after he retired!

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Old April 5, 2006, 08:26 PM   #40
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The 30 caliber rifle bullets of this type are known to knock men down, and throw them off their feet back some distance...
Absolutely and demonstrably incorrect and a physical impossibility.

If the recoil doesn't knock the shooter down or throw him "off his feet back some distance" then it can't do that to the person soaking up the bullet either.

This was tested with a "man-sized" pig carcass hung precariously from an easily dislodged toggle. The only firearm capable of making it "drop" (none of them even came CLOSE to knocking it backward) was a 12 ga shotgun. Even then, it just jiggled the carcass a tiny bit--just enough to dislodge it from the toggle.

At one point, four people were all shooting it simultaneously with various calibers (including a .45ACP Thompson on full auto) and it never even moved. A 30 cal rifle of some sort (.308 or 30-06) was tested--the carcass wasn't knocked back and didn't even fall.
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Old April 5, 2006, 08:27 PM   #41
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Pointer,
I have heard of things like that happening. That is truly remarkable but I'm wondering has that guy sobered up?
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Old April 5, 2006, 09:13 PM   #42
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JohnKSa,

I will not get into a debate with you over this subject but let me ask you something. Did you ever shoot a man with a 7.62/308 cal. (M-14) or any kind of a firearm for that matter? I have many times and while it did not happen every time, there were times it did knock them down and throw them off their feet some distance. I don't mean throwing them thru the air like in the movies but knocking them off their feet as in backward several inches maybe even feet. If I shoot you in the chest with a M-14 do you think you'll just stand there and clutch your chest and then lay down like in the cowboy movies? I can guarantee you you're gonna move. You're gonna move backward, sideways, in some direction besides down! You're not going to just stand there and take the full impact of the shot.

If you've had real personal experiences like the one I described please share them with us. I know what I did experience as fact whether you believe it or not. Shooting a dead pig as opposed to a living man is not quite the same regardless of how many "tests" one does.
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Old April 5, 2006, 09:23 PM   #43
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Quote:
has that guy sobered up?
Unknown???
But I doubt it...

It's been so long he might even have died...
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Old April 5, 2006, 09:43 PM   #44
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If I shoot you in the chest with a M-14...I can guarantee you you're gonna move.
It is entirely possible, even probable, that a person hit with a rifle round will REACT by jumping, dodging, clasping one's chest, diving for cover, reflexively jerking, etc. It is NOT physically possible for them to be thrown around by the force of the impact.
Quote:
Shooting a dead pig as opposed to a living man is not quite the same regardless of how many "tests" one does.
Shooting a dead pig is a perfect test for showing that the force of bullet impact alone is insufficient to cause any significant movement. Which forces us to the conclusion that if a live person moves significantly from being shot, it is a REACTION--a movement caused either by voluntary motion, reflex action or the interaction of damaged nerves and muscle. NOT simply the force of the bullet acting upon them.

AND, getting right to the heart of the matter (and the topic of this thread), since the FORCE of the bullet impact is not what's actually moving them, the caliber used is either totally or largely irrelevant to the amount of REACTION.

I'm not necessarily questioning your experience or veracity, but I am telling you that your interpretation of your observations is contrary to fact.
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Old April 5, 2006, 11:07 PM   #45
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Quote:
If you've had real personal experiences like the one I described please share them with us. I know what I did experience as fact whether you believe it or not.
Generally I don't answer questions like this, I think think it is rude to ask, but I suppose it is valid in this case. Yes, I have been in combat and I have seen people shot. They ALWAYS fall in the same direction they are moving when hit, if they fall at all.

I have used and m14, an m249, as well as an m16 and I have NEVER seen a person knocked back, although I have seen a sort of whiplash effect on head shots. I have seen a person hit with a Mark 19 shell as close range, it was an HE round which had not armed, and it went though him without exploding. He was not knocked back, so I think it is fair to say what you are suggesting is impossible.

One thing I can tell you from years of LE work and interviewing witnesses to the same events, memory can be a funny thing sometimes, I do not doubt that you belive what you are saying, but perhaps it was not what it appeared to be.
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Old April 6, 2006, 12:13 AM   #46
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If you think it's "rude to ask" which BTW the question was not directed at you don't you think it's rude to make a statement like this? "memory can be a funny thing sometimes, I do not doubt that you believe what you are saying, but perhaps it was not what it appeared to be. "
Maybe you should read this HERE
Quote:
They ALWAYS fall in the same direction they are moving when hit, if they fall at all.
I just gotta ask. What do you mean "if they fall at all"? Everyone I ever shot ALWAYS fell. What happens if the enemy is standing still? Did he fall straight down or is it too rude to ask that question?
So in other words you have seen men shot and other then dying they have not reacted at all. I mean to not even fall backward but in every instant, you say 100% of the time "I have NEVER seen a person knocked back". I think it is fair to say what you are suggesting is impossible.
This was the statement I made and why is it so had to believe?
Quote:
You're gonna move backward, sideways, in some direction besides down! You're not going to just stand there and take the full impact of the shot.
I did not say one would do back flips or go flying through the air. What is so difficult about understanding what I meant.
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Old April 6, 2006, 12:46 AM   #47
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So in other words you have seen men shot and other then dying they have not reacted at all.
1. Not everyone who is shot dies.
2. It is common for shooting victims to say that they didn't even know they were wounded until later. That is quite consistent with someone getting shot and not reacting at all.
Quote:
I did not say one would... go flying through the air.
Yeah, actually you did.
Quote:
throw them off their feet back some distance
But it sounds like at this point we're all in agreement that the force of a .308 bullet impact won't knock someone to the ground, or throw them off their feet and backwards, or make them fly through the air.
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Old April 6, 2006, 01:27 AM   #48
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Correct, not everyone who is shot dies but when shot with the M-14 which is what we were talking about there is a very good chance of that. But then I'm sure you'll disagree about that also.

It is common for shooting victims to say that they didn't even know they were wounded until later. That is quite consistent with someone getting shot and not reacting at all.
Absolutely 100% wrong! I have NEVER seen anyone shot with a M-14 that did not know it!

And finally,

"go flying through the air" AND "throw them off their feet back some distance" aren't even close to being the same thing!

You certainly do like to put your own spin on things don't you?
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Old April 6, 2006, 02:57 AM   #49
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So in other words you have seen men shot and other then dying they have not reacted at all.
I have, in fact, seen men shot and not die at all. It is true that some did not know they were shot (people I knew) and some that did not seem to react at all(other side).

If someone is off their feet and at that point travels some distance in a rearward direction, I would have to say "flying" is what they are doing. Perhaps floating, I don't know what you saw.

Simple physics here, an object weighing as little as a bullet needs a certain amount of energy(velocity) to move something as big as a person who weighs thousands of times as much. There is no gun on earth that can do this. The difference in weight of a .308 to a .223 in respect to a human body is trivial. The flesh may be damaged or destroyed but the bulk of it is not going to move.

As it has been said, if you could make the bullet move fast enough to do this, you would be moved an equal amount in the oppsite direction. This is an object fact I'm afraid. If you could disprove it, you could make a great deal of money authoring physics books.
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Old April 6, 2006, 04:22 AM   #50
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JohnKSa
Quote:
It is NOT physically possible for them to be thrown around by the force of the impact.
I generally agree with your posts but I have trouble with this statement.

If one is smacked with a softball at say, 860 fps it won't penetrate through one but it is very likely that it will "knock" you off your feet by the force of impact... as opposed to a BB at the same speed with the same POI...

Therefore, A bigger projectile is more likely to move the "target" than a smaller projectile...

On that hypothesis... somewhere between 100fps and "penetration speed" and somewhere between .223 and 30mm... it is possible for a projectile to "throw" one around...

riverrat and Blackwater
Quote:
when shot with the M-14
They will most likely "know they've been hit" much sooner than with a .223 if they are not killed outright. Regardless their mental state.

There is a reason that many, many soldiers in Vietnam "chose" the M-14 over the .223 and it was not just because they didn't like, or didn't trust, the AR.

There is also a reason why the military is currently working on a new BIGGER round for the AR.

IF and I repeat, IF either one can "move" the target or rip up bone and flesh better than the other... it is the 30 (7.62) over the 22 (5.56).

That is why the bigger bullets are used against thick hides and heavy bones and why some countries in Africa and some states in the US and elsewhwere, have legal requirements for minimum bullet sizes.

If the bullet is moving really fast it will punch right through... but if it hits a heavy bone off center it could at least turn the individual a little bit.

The right projectile with the right velocity will push you back...
witness, a medicine ball at 5 miles an hour.

CONCLUSION? We are arguing semantics like "impossible" or "never" as if they are absolutes without room for argument...

So far, I have been able to agree with the principles each of you have proffered and I can do this if I don't pick at your choice of words and phrases and simply try to understand you.

Thank you all for being gentlemen in this discussion... It is refreshing to learn from such people.

Does anyone know where I can get a CCW that shoots medicine balls?

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