True stories stopping man or beast

rimfireman · March 28, 2006, 12:54 AM

Does anyone have a real life experience stopping either man or beast, and what caliber did you use. I am looking to see if size matters. I keep reading opionions, but I would love to see experience. Can a 22 stop anyone or has anyone missed with larger more powerful weapons since they can be more difficult to shoot? Just wondering.

Dwight55 · March 28, 2006, 09:18 AM

Whenever this question arises, I always remember the story in a little town about 10 miles from where I live.

Two guys got into a rukus in one of the rougher bars there and were ushered out of the place by the bouncer and bartender.

Once outside, they both pulled out handguns, . . . one a .357 mag, . . . the other a .22.

The guy who got shot with the .357 died there in the street, . . . the guy who got shot with the .22 died an hour or so later in the hospital.

Conclusion: placement is what counts, . . . not caliber.

May God bless,
Dwight

Wisby · March 28, 2006, 09:36 AM

There is the Cop one with a video and everything someone posted about it here a few months ago...

You see the guy get shot a 4 or 5 times with a .357 from the Cop and the BG shot's the Cop with a .22 in the armpit. The BG live's IIRC and the Cop dies because the .22 hit a Main Artiery. Maybe someone can link the storm to this link.

mete · March 28, 2006, 10:44 AM

I stopped and killed a feral cat with my 1911 and the bullet never entered his body !! He was facing me and the bullet impacted his spine fatally without ever penetrating his skin, just shaved a little fur off. Now do you see why we love the 45 acp ??

threegun · March 28, 2006, 01:57 PM

If size didn't matter than everyone would shoot a .22lr. They are generally tack drivers easy to shoot fast etc.

Hook686 · March 28, 2006, 05:28 PM

The shooting or Trooper Mark Coats, if anything, points out that "Size" has not much to do with it ... it seems to me Trooper Coats had everything on his side, but ....

http://www.rcfop.com/video/reality/w...percoates.html

JCC2 · March 28, 2006, 06:39 PM

as most people want to believe...

Remember reading a case a few weeks ago LEO stopped a guy for traffic violation... Things got out of control and ended up in big fight in parking lot. LEO pulled gun and shoot BG once in stomach but ended up taking the worst part of the fight... a CCW passer by went to help LEO and shoot BG for times and BG still kept going for LEO... It took a fifth shot (sixth on yhe BG actually) to kill the attacker......

Don't remember specific calibers but I believe LEO was at least .40 and CCW was .45....

Stay safe,

Juan Carlos

jamaica · March 28, 2006, 11:52 PM

In my youth I lived and breathed to hunt. Started out with a Daisy bb gun at age six. Graduated to a .22 single shot at age 12. Back then there was no restrictions on youth having guns.

I don't have any idea how many big game animals I have killed, but it is considerable. Thousands of small game and varmints.

However, I have to say this; before you can kill or stop anything, you have to hit it, and it helps to hit it in the right spot. A bullet in the brain or spinal cord in the area of the neck will imediately bring the animal down. And it will almost always stay down, not even a twitch, just plop, down like dropping a wet dish rag.

I have also seen deer run 150 yards with a 30 cal hole through the heart.
That is why I like head shots. You don't have to chase the critter.

I have seen the lowly .22 LR take animals from the size of mice up to elk and 2000 lb. bulls. No doubt in my mind the small calibers can kill.

I have used a number of rifle calibers including .22 LR 22 Mag, 30-30, 222, 243, 30-06, 308, 270, 270 Weatherby Mag, 300 Mag.

I have killed many deer with one shot with the 222 to the head.
I have twice made a body shot on deer with the 222 and both times I wounded the animal and had to track it down The one was hit in the lungs, the other a little too low in the front shoulder. On the shoulder shot, the little pill stopped before getting into anything vital. Now hits like that with the 270 will usually go clear through and knock the deer down immediately. They won't usually get up. Of course the 222 delivers much more energy than the 45 auto. So see what you are up against?

If the animal is already spooked and moving out sometimes you can put a bullet through the heart or lung area and they will run a considerable distance before dropping from lack of blood. In other words if it was coming for you, it would get you before it died.

Though the light loads can kill, it quickly becomes evident that the more powerful loads are better for stopping and/or killing the animal. Absolutely no question about it. Size matters. It is a fact.

I have only owned 22 and 44 Spl revolvers. Let me just say that the 44 is very, very, much more effective, regardless what animal you may be after.

I have never shot at a man, nor do I want to, but I am sure that what I have learned about stopping animals will apply if needed.

My advice: what ever gun you decide to use, learn to shoot! Practice, practice, practice.

jamaica · March 29, 2006, 12:16 AM

Quote:
Can a 22 stop anyone or has anyone missed with larger more powerful weapons since they can be more difficult to shoot? Just wondering.
End quote

More difficult to shoot?

I think that most of us are thinking in terms of calibers like 9 mm up to 45 Auto and .40 S&W for carry weapons. From where I stand, I can't see any of these calibers being difficult to shoot or having un-manageable recoil.

A 44 mag could be a bit to much for comfort though. Although if I had to engage in a gunfight or take out a bear at close range, a 44 Mag would be fine with me.

I can believe that some pistols and revolvers might be difficult to handle because of the design of the gun, but nothing to do with the caliber. Try a variety and settle on one that feels good in your hand, has good balance and points good. It should point just as easy as pointing your finger.

Yes, a .22 can stop anyone, *IF* you can carefully place one bullet directly between the eyes of your assailant.

threegun · March 29, 2006, 06:35 AM

JCC2,

Quote:

a CCW passer by went to help LEO and shoot BG for times and BG still kept going for LEO... It took a fifth shot (sixth on yhe BG actually) to kill the attacker......

Don't remember specific calibers but I believe LEO was at least .40 and CCW was .45....

It was a 45acp. If 4 torso hits with a 45acp and a belly wound from the officers gun failed to stop, why on earth would anyone choose a caliber on the other end of the spectrum........unless it was all they could handle and shoot effectively.

Quote:

You see the guy get shot a 4 or 5 times with a .357 from the Cop and the BG shot's the Cop with a .22 in the armpit. The BG live's IIRC and the Cop dies because the .22 hit a Main Artery.

A 357 mag in the armpit would have severed the same artery plus smashed other stuff. Shot placement is the key of course. However once your shot placement is the same bigger is usually better.

JCC2 · March 29, 2006, 03:54 PM

But....It is a lot easier for most people (stress on MOST

) to place a shot where they want to if they are shooting a smaller caliber for several reasons, just to name a couple:

- Less recoil of course, allowing for faster/more accurate subsequent shots

- Cheaper cost of ammo (normally) allowing for more practice....

Under equal shot placement, of course Bigger IS Better

Stay safe,

Juan Carlos

threegun · March 29, 2006, 04:47 PM

Hits on a badguy in a life and death dual are difficult with any caliber. Just look at the hit ratios for law enforcement while in training and in L&D struggles. I believe the hit ratio is in the 20 percentile range. With stress, moving badguys, obsticles, ect even the better shooters tend to shoot poorly. These are guys many of whom shoot the heavier calibers great under normal conditions.

David Armstrong · March 29, 2006, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Can a 22 stop anyone or has anyone missed with larger more powerful weapons since they can be more difficult to shoot?

The answer to both questions is "yes". A .22 can stop anyone, and has been shown to be quite adequate for defensive puposes over the years. And some people have missed the shots because they were using a large gun that they could not control. There are no absolutes in the defensive shooting world, only probabilities. So the better question might be "how likely is a .22 to stop an attacker, and how likely is it to miss with a more powerful weapon?"

armedandsafe · March 30, 2006, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Most folks generally will not discuss their shootings of people in detail on boards like this.

This is true, in general, and I am no exception. However, I will make an exception in this thread.

The first one was with a 1917 loaded with hardball. I fended his bayonet thrust with my weak hand and hit him twice, in the solar plexus and upper chest. He was no longer a threat.

The second one was at about 150 yards with the 03A3. My team was armed with 1911s and 38spl revolvers (and my 1917 .45.) The group we stopped to arrest were armed with rifles. I went back to the car and retrieved the 03A3 and started disabling trucks and drivers. At 1 of ours wounded and 3 of theirs down, they decided to surrender. That was good, as I had only 3 rounds left.

Those are the times I have fired and hit.

The third was not mine, but my son-in-law's father. As local police chief, he served a warrent and the reciepient charged him. His .357 entered the BGs forehead and stayed just under the skin until it exited out the back of his head. Not a serious injury, but the BG decided to lie down, anyway.

Size matters for stopping a threat quickly. Placement counts for stopping the threat at all.

Pops

isa268 · March 31, 2006, 10:16 AM

ture stories of citizens defending themselves with guns.

http://www.kressworks.com/Politics/G..._gun_uses.html

JCC2 · March 31, 2006, 01:12 PM

Regarding armedandsafe´s comment (last para) about a .357 shot to BG´s head with really minor damage, I have heard and read many similar stories all over....

It seems to be that the hardness/shape of the skull bones doesn´t make head shots as effective as one would have thought, unless the shot comes at a very specific angle......

Anyone has any additional info on this subject?

Stay safe !!!!

Juan Carlos

threegun · March 31, 2006, 01:46 PM

Erick, I will look for the source. If some agencies are that high then others must be horrible, if my stats are in the ballpark.

David Armstrong · March 31, 2006, 02:05 PM

Quote:

I keep hearing folks reference this 20% figure for hits in OISs. Not sure where it comes from.

It comes from SOP9, from New York City, and is a good example of people tossing around numbers without really understanding them. The 20% statement is accurate, and is probably fairly close for a national number also according to research Greg Morrison and I have done, but it probably is somewhat misleading also. Within LE there are many groups and some agencies that have a hit rate much higher (some in excess of 90%) and the lower number also includes instances of obviously unusual incidents that tend to skew the figures, such as a barricaded suspect call where over 1000 rounds are fired.

Eghad · March 31, 2006, 02:05 PM

My most harrowing encounter with a frenzied beast was on my paper route one day. I stopped to put the old lady's paper outta the rain. Her 2 pound chiuaha had gotten loose and proceeded to bite the back of my ankle. Luckily I still had the rolled up newsaper which I used like a cricket bat. The dog tumbled head over heels through the air and promptly retreated. My ankle was safe and the dog learned some manners.

threegun · April 1, 2006, 03:49 AM

I agree that the figures are skewed by special circumstances. Still I can't tell you how many times I hear police and suspect exchanging multiple shots without hits. Just recently here in Hillborough County an officer exchanged gunfire and yep missed. Tons just like this only in this area.

Quote:

An Inverness police officer fired a shot at a fleeing suspect Sunday after the man took something from his back pocket that resembled a gun.

The suspect, Shane Andrew Little, 18, was not hit.

The badguys are even worst it seems.

DunedinDragon · April 1, 2006, 05:42 AM

Quote:

I agree that the figures are skewed by special circumstances. Still I can't tell you how many times I hear police and suspect exchanging multiple shots without hits. Just recently here in Hillborough County an officer exchanged gunfire and yep missed. Tons just like this only in this area.

Quote:

An Inverness police officer fired a shot at a fleeing suspect Sunday after the man took something from his back pocket that resembled a gun.

The suspect, Shane Andrew Little, 18, was not hit.

The badguys are even worst it seems.

I agree these statistics aren't terribly meaningful. What would be meaningful would be statistics related to hit rates for people that PRACTICE their gun skills (range, IDPA, etc.) versus those that don't...whether they're cops or not. I suspect you'd find a MUCH higher hit rate as evidenced by the video of the guy working the hotel desk that shot the robber...3 out of 3 hits while the guy was moving. Impressive.

Pointer · April 1, 2006, 06:10 AM

Quote:

Once outside, they both pulled out handguns, . . . one a .357 mag, . . . the other a .22.

The guy who got shot with the .357 died there in the street, . . . the guy who got shot with the .22 died an hour or so later in the hospital.

Conclusion: placement is what counts, . . . not caliber.

Dwight
Your conclusion is non-sequiter...
It is reasonable to assume that both shooters hit the "ever-magical" center-mass.

My story is...

My friend had had his hand and arm severely damaged in WWII by a 7mm Jap. from palm to elbow.
Therefore, he thought a .22LR would be sufficient for home defense...

He woke up in the middle of the night to sounds of illegal entry at his front door.

He grabbed his trusty .22 and headed for the front room and found two intruders...

One was blocking his view of the other...

He double-tapped the first one center-mass, at less than 10 feet, and the other one "quickity-split"...

After about two minutes... my friend called the police...

More minutes passed and he got an answer...
(There was no 911 line in those days and the response was a little better.)

10 more minutes and one squad car arrived with two LEO's...

After several minutes the two LEO's began looking around the neighborhood for the wounded perp...

After about 25 minutes of searching they found the perp hiding under a parked vehicle.

After that they "walked", (My friend said, "...not particularly in a hurry.") back to their car and called for an ambulance.

After about 8 or 10 more minutes the ambulance arrived and they talked with the police a little and loaded the perp onto the gurney. (My friend said, "...not particularly in a hurry.") and then they headed for the hospital which was at least ten minutes away...

The emergency trauma team "prepped" him for surgery... more minutes...
And after 8 hours of surgery he survived to be tried and sent to jail. He tried to sue my friend but in those days they had sensible judges... and the case was "thrown out of court". (Now there's a phrase you don't hear much anymore.)

My friend, knowing my experience with hand guns, told me this story and asked me to help him get a 1911 .45ACP.

Ya'll can draw your own "conclusions"... sequiter or not...

Blackwater OPS · April 1, 2006, 01:24 PM

Quote:

It seems to be that the hardness/shape of the skull bones doesn´t make head shots as effective as one would have thought, unless the shot comes at a very specific angle......

What you want to do is hit between the upper lip and the top of the eyes, this area is soft tissue leading directly to the brain. No fancy angles needed, just good shot placement. Even a .22 will penetrate the sofe tissue there, although it won't make it out the back of the skull....

Derius_T · April 1, 2006, 07:46 PM

Alot of people throwing numbers around and talking of hits and such. For those that are unaware, it is completely different to hit perfectly in a non-dangerous, controlled environment, as to making perfect COM shots when your life is in critical danger, and bullets are flying around your ears.....not nearly as easy.....

As for oddest critter shot, was deer hunting, and had my 12 gauge loaded with slugs of course. Unknown to me, the first shell I loaded was a 00 buck load. Long story short, shot nice big doe. Fell almost in her tracks. When we checked her out, we couldn't find a wound ANYWHERE on her. Absolutely no reason for her to be dead. Upon much closer examination, we noticed one of her eyes was busted. 1 single steel shot (as near as we could tell) had entered her eye, and must have went directly into her brain.

Weirdest thing I have ever personally seen....

JohnBrowning · April 1, 2006, 08:07 PM

The SOB who shot up the post office in Royal Oak Michigan in 1991 was armed with a 10/22 which he obtained because of the then lack of background checks. He shot 10 people, and 5 of them died on the scene. I don't know how many shots he fired total, but in any case, that tragic and stupid instance is a good example of the lethality of any caliber of bullet.

March 28, 2006, 12:54 AM	#1
rimfireman Junior Member Join Date: March 27, 2006 Posts: 9	True stories stopping man or beast Does anyone have a real life experience stopping either man or beast, and what caliber did you use. I am looking to see if size matters. I keep reading opionions, but I would love to see experience. Can a 22 stop anyone or has anyone missed with larger more powerful weapons since they can be more difficult to shoot? Just wondering.

March 28, 2006, 09:18 AM	#2
Dwight55 Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2004 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 2,568	Whenever this question arises, I always remember the story in a little town about 10 miles from where I live. Two guys got into a rukus in one of the rougher bars there and were ushered out of the place by the bouncer and bartender. Once outside, they both pulled out handguns, . . . one a .357 mag, . . . the other a .22. The guy who got shot with the .357 died there in the street, . . . the guy who got shot with the .22 died an hour or so later in the hospital. Conclusion: placement is what counts, . . . not caliber. May God bless, Dwight __________________ www.dwightsgunleather.com If you can breathe, . . . thank God! If you can read, . . . thank a teacher! If you are reading this in English, . . . thank a Veteran!

March 28, 2006, 05:28 PM	#6
Hook686 Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2005 Location: USA The Great State of California Posts: 2,090	The shooting or Trooper Mark Coats, if anything, points out that "Size" has not much to do with it ... it seems to me Trooper Coats had everything on his side, but .... http://www.rcfop.com/video/reality/w...percoates.html __________________ Hook686 When the number of people in institutions reaches 51%, we change sides.

March 28, 2006, 06:39 PM	#7
JCC2 Member Join Date: March 4, 2006 Posts: 33	Size might not be as important... as most people want to believe... Remember reading a case a few weeks ago LEO stopped a guy for traffic violation... Things got out of control and ended up in big fight in parking lot. LEO pulled gun and shoot BG once in stomach but ended up taking the worst part of the fight... a CCW passer by went to help LEO and shoot BG for times and BG still kept going for LEO... It took a fifth shot (sixth on yhe BG actually) to kill the attacker...... Don't remember specific calibers but I believe LEO was at least .40 and CCW was .45.... Stay safe, Juan Carlos

March 28, 2006, 11:52 PM	#8
jamaica Senior Member Join Date: March 24, 2006 Location: Northern Utah Posts: 705	Size Matters In my youth I lived and breathed to hunt. Started out with a Daisy bb gun at age six. Graduated to a .22 single shot at age 12. Back then there was no restrictions on youth having guns. I don't have any idea how many big game animals I have killed, but it is considerable. Thousands of small game and varmints. However, I have to say this; before you can kill or stop anything, you have to hit it, and it helps to hit it in the right spot. A bullet in the brain or spinal cord in the area of the neck will imediately bring the animal down. And it will almost always stay down, not even a twitch, just plop, down like dropping a wet dish rag. I have also seen deer run 150 yards with a 30 cal hole through the heart. That is why I like head shots. You don't have to chase the critter. I have seen the lowly .22 LR take animals from the size of mice up to elk and 2000 lb. bulls. No doubt in my mind the small calibers can kill. I have used a number of rifle calibers including .22 LR 22 Mag, 30-30, 222, 243, 30-06, 308, 270, 270 Weatherby Mag, 300 Mag. I have killed many deer with one shot with the 222 to the head. I have twice made a body shot on deer with the 222 and both times I wounded the animal and had to track it down The one was hit in the lungs, the other a little too low in the front shoulder. On the shoulder shot, the little pill stopped before getting into anything vital. Now hits like that with the 270 will usually go clear through and knock the deer down immediately. They won't usually get up. Of course the 222 delivers much more energy than the 45 auto. So see what you are up against? If the animal is already spooked and moving out sometimes you can put a bullet through the heart or lung area and they will run a considerable distance before dropping from lack of blood. In other words if it was coming for you, it would get you before it died. Though the light loads can kill, it quickly becomes evident that the more powerful loads are better for stopping and/or killing the animal. Absolutely no question about it. Size matters. It is a fact. I have only owned 22 and 44 Spl revolvers. Let me just say that the 44 is very, very, much more effective, regardless what animal you may be after. I have never shot at a man, nor do I want to, but I am sure that what I have learned about stopping animals will apply if needed. My advice: what ever gun you decide to use, learn to shoot! Practice, practice, practice.

March 28, 2006, 09:36 AM	#3
Wisby Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2005 Location: Bangor, Wa / Cypress, Tx Posts: 302	There is the Cop one with a video and everything someone posted about it here a few months ago... You see the guy get shot a 4 or 5 times with a .357 from the Cop and the BG shot's the Cop with a .22 in the armpit. The BG live's IIRC and the Cop dies because the .22 hit a Main Artiery. Maybe someone can link the storm to this link.

March 28, 2006, 10:44 AM	#4
mete Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2004 Location: NY State Posts: 6,575	I stopped and killed a feral cat with my 1911 and the bullet never entered his body !! He was facing me and the bullet impacted his spine fatally without ever penetrating his skin, just shaved a little fur off. Now do you see why we love the 45 acp ??

March 28, 2006, 01:57 PM	#5
threegun Junior member Join Date: March 1, 2006 Location: Tampa,Fl Posts: 4,000	If size didn't matter than everyone would shoot a .22lr. They are generally tack drivers easy to shoot fast etc.

March 29, 2006, 12:16 AM	#9
jamaica Senior Member Join Date: March 24, 2006 Location: Northern Utah Posts: 705	Quote: Can a 22 stop anyone or has anyone missed with larger more powerful weapons since they can be more difficult to shoot? Just wondering. End quote More difficult to shoot? I think that most of us are thinking in terms of calibers like 9 mm up to 45 Auto and .40 S&W for carry weapons. From where I stand, I can't see any of these calibers being difficult to shoot or having un-manageable recoil. A 44 mag could be a bit to much for comfort though. Although if I had to engage in a gunfight or take out a bear at close range, a 44 Mag would be fine with me. I can believe that some pistols and revolvers might be difficult to handle because of the design of the gun, but nothing to do with the caliber. Try a variety and settle on one that feels good in your hand, has good balance and points good. It should point just as easy as pointing your finger. Yes, a .22 can stop anyone, IF you can carefully place one bullet directly between the eyes of your assailant.

March 29, 2006, 03:54 PM	#11
JCC2 Member Join Date: March 4, 2006 Posts: 33	Agreed thatshot placement is the key..... But....It is a lot easier for most people (stress on MOST ) to place a shot where they want to if they are shooting a smaller caliber for several reasons, just to name a couple: - Less recoil of course, allowing for faster/more accurate subsequent shots - Cheaper cost of ammo (normally) allowing for more practice.... Under equal shot placement, of course Bigger IS Better Stay safe, Juan Carlos

March 29, 2006, 04:47 PM	#12
threegun Junior member Join Date: March 1, 2006 Location: Tampa,Fl Posts: 4,000	Hits on a badguy in a life and death dual are difficult with any caliber. Just look at the hit ratios for law enforcement while in training and in L&D struggles. I believe the hit ratio is in the 20 percentile range. With stress, moving badguys, obsticles, ect even the better shooters tend to shoot poorly. These are guys many of whom shoot the heavier calibers great under normal conditions.

March 31, 2006, 10:16 AM	#15
isa268 Member Join Date: May 9, 2005 Posts: 66	ture stories of citizens defending themselves with guns. http://www.kressworks.com/Politics/G..._gun_uses.html

March 31, 2006, 01:12 PM	#16
JCC2 Member Join Date: March 4, 2006 Posts: 33	Head shots or wounds.... Regarding armedandsafe´s comment (last para) about a .357 shot to BG´s head with really minor damage, I have heard and read many similar stories all over.... It seems to be that the hardness/shape of the skull bones doesn´t make head shots as effective as one would have thought, unless the shot comes at a very specific angle...... Anyone has any additional info on this subject? Stay safe !!!! Juan Carlos

March 31, 2006, 01:46 PM	#17
threegun Junior member Join Date: March 1, 2006 Location: Tampa,Fl Posts: 4,000	Erick, I will look for the source. If some agencies are that high then others must be horrible, if my stats are in the ballpark.

March 31, 2006, 02:05 PM	#19
Eghad Senior Member Join Date: May 28, 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 6,231	My most harrowing encounter with a frenzied beast was on my paper route one day. I stopped to put the old lady's paper outta the rain. Her 2 pound chiuaha had gotten loose and proceeded to bite the back of my ankle. Luckily I still had the rolled up newsaper which I used like a cricket bat. The dog tumbled head over heels through the air and promptly retreated. My ankle was safe and the dog learned some manners. __________________ Have a nice day at the range NRA Life Member

April 1, 2006, 07:46 PM	#24
Derius_T Senior Member Join Date: November 29, 2004 Location: South West OHIO (boondocks) Posts: 1,337	Alot of people throwing numbers around and talking of hits and such. For those that are unaware, it is completely different to hit perfectly in a non-dangerous, controlled environment, as to making perfect COM shots when your life is in critical danger, and bullets are flying around your ears.....not nearly as easy..... As for oddest critter shot, was deer hunting, and had my 12 gauge loaded with slugs of course. Unknown to me, the first shell I loaded was a 00 buck load. Long story short, shot nice big doe. Fell almost in her tracks. When we checked her out, we couldn't find a wound ANYWHERE on her. Absolutely no reason for her to be dead. Upon much closer examination, we noticed one of her eyes was busted. 1 single steel shot (as near as we could tell) had entered her eye, and must have went directly into her brain. Weirdest thing I have ever personally seen....

April 1, 2006, 08:07 PM	#25
JohnBrowning Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2005 Posts: 140	The SOB who shot up the post office in Royal Oak Michigan in 1991 was armed with a 10/22 which he obtained because of the then lack of background checks. He shot 10 people, and 5 of them died on the scene. I don't know how many shots he fired total, but in any case, that tragic and stupid instance is a good example of the lethality of any caliber of bullet.