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March 29, 2006, 06:52 AM | #26 | ||
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S'N'B I just tried to walk in one direction and shoot behind me and cannot with a two handed hold. Do you shoot one handed while retreating?
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March 29, 2006, 10:19 AM | #27 |
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You gotta know how to effectively RUN AND GUN
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KICK THE TIRES AND LIGHT THE FIRES |
March 29, 2006, 11:47 AM | #28 |
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Accuracy all the way.
Being a police officer for the last 16 years, all of this sounds really great but in actually it doesn't work. Only the highly trained person under live fire drills (paint ball, type) have the thought to move, granted I loved all the answers and they are the right thing to do, but the human when confronted with deadly force usually freezes and has tunnel vision also doesn't even know how many rounds he/she fired.
So my answer would be accuracy, (head shot) and if BG gets a round off at you take it in the vest. 1 head shot = gunfight over. This is my biggest problem with IPSC. Let's hit the targets 3 times really fast with non-lethal hits, why not get 3 "A" zone hit fast and the fight is over. Yet another probelm I have with the whole weaver v.s. anyother stance. Shoot weaver against me I'll shoot you through the arm and into your chest cavity. Game over! |
March 29, 2006, 12:10 PM | #29 | |
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March 29, 2006, 12:47 PM | #30 |
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S&B:
so.... Where do you teach these classes? -Zeke |
March 29, 2006, 01:40 PM | #31 |
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You learn these things, by living them, or at a police agency or some highly skilled training school like thunder ranch if it is still around, but once you learn you need to practice regularily.
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March 29, 2006, 04:12 PM | #32 |
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PPCmaster, I have twice had to draw believing the need to shoot was here. In the first incident I did everything as trained. The second time I did everything as trained including drawing, walking back towards cover while looking for the threat (which didn't exist....long story). I am neither tough nor professionally trained yet both times I reverted to what I had practiced. I think you would react as trained also. If that training included those listed in the fluid situational response, I believe you would react instead of freezing. I did and without formal FoF training or Professional tactical training, just lots of repetition both physically and mentally. I know it can be done, heck if I can do it anyone can.
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March 29, 2006, 11:20 PM | #33 |
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Threegun, I hate to be a stick in the mud but I will not be able to tell you how to do it. Right now we have something that no one else has. There have been a few well known trainers trying to see what we have discovered and where we are headed. If they were to find out what we have, no one would need to train with us.
Here are a couple of AAR's from last weekend. I had a private session with a student that is ex-military, ex-LEO, and current firearms instructor at one of the big schools. Here is where you will find his AAR. http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/...read.php?t=226 Robin Brown had a private session with a current LEO trainer from the California area, that has 1400 officers under his care. The AAR can be found here. http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/...read.php?t=223 zeroskillz, I am in the Vegas area, Robin Brown is in the Phoenix area. We can travel if the numbers are right.
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"Situations dictate strategy, strategy dictates tactics, tactics dictate techniques.....techniques should not dictate anything." Roger Phillips, Owner and Operator of Fight Focused Concepts |
March 30, 2006, 05:41 AM | #34 |
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I understand. After reading your links it kinda answered my question anyway. The 2-2-2 drill in 2.14 seconds, was that posted by one of your students?
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March 30, 2006, 11:57 PM | #35 |
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threegun, that was a student that was training with Robin Brown. He is now the Quick Kill instructor in the Denver area. Glad that your questions were answered.
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"Situations dictate strategy, strategy dictates tactics, tactics dictate techniques.....techniques should not dictate anything." Roger Phillips, Owner and Operator of Fight Focused Concepts |
March 31, 2006, 10:38 AM | #36 |
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Sorry fellas and experts, but I can't help responding with a bit of reality versus the unending scientific-imaginary response scenarios posted here.
Seems that so far....every solution to a gunfight has been some sort of trick maneuver taught by those who've never shot with bad intentions......or been shot at and is designed for use by a thirty year old semi-athlete. No expert advisor here has even mentioned the average ccw-Joe who is likely older, fatter, weaker, slower and inexperienced in any type of self defense. And therein lies the achilles heel of so many expert advisors; no experience-reality based training! My advice...depending on distance....is to seek cover first. If you are too close or it's too sudden...crouch and point shoot. Odds are 'that' will assure mutual wounding or mutual death. But that's a gunfight. .
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March 31, 2006, 12:43 PM | #37 |
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Skyguy -
I think that's what we discussed on the first page As for reality-based? What if you ARE trained, 30 years old, and in good shape? What's your reality then? My point is that reality is subjective - that's why tactics are dynamic and never set in stone. What works for one will most definitely be scoffed upon by another. I don't think anyone here is advocating the "off the wall, around the corner, through the window, over the car, nothing but net" approach. All things being equal - many of the suggestions here are quite valid. If conditions exist that alter someone's "reality" then they have two options: adapt their tactics or adapt their reality.
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March 31, 2006, 01:24 PM | #38 |
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It is well known that most instructors recommend moving toward cover while engaging the badguy. Fat, old, young, weak, whatever doesn't change the fact that in a gunfight it is better to move toward cover while shooting. If a particular drill can't be used by someone for physical reasons, obviously they need to employ a tactic that they can perform based on their limitation. If you can run and gun like a 30 year old better for you. The reality is to do as much as you can to employ the best tactics so that your odds of surviving a gunfight increase.
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March 31, 2006, 01:29 PM | #39 | |
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I was responding to the question that was asked: "should you fire with an emphasis on movement (laterally, diagnally, etc)? Or should you focus on trying to hit the BG first, and worry less about constant movement to avoid getting hit." My answer to that question was and still is: "My advice...depending on distance....is to seek cover first. If you are too close or it's too sudden...crouch and point shoot. Odds are 'that' will assure mutual wounding or mutual death. But that's a gunfight. .
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April 1, 2006, 03:26 AM | #40 | |
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Skyguy,
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April 1, 2006, 08:29 PM | #41 | |
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Think I'm kidding....check it out. Anyway threegun, please don't take my statements out of context. I never said that "standing still" is the way to go. I said: "My advice...depending on distance....is to seek cover first. If you are too close or it's too sudden...crouch and point shoot. Odds are 'that' will assure mutual wounding or mutual death. But that's a gunfight." .
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First off.....'she' is a weapon, not a girlfriend; a genderless, inanimate mechanism designed to mete out mayhem in life threatening situations. |
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April 1, 2006, 11:30 PM | #42 |
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Wow, I am impressed at the number and the length of the posts for this thread. Personally, as I have said many times here on TFL, my goal is not to be a hero or take a persons life. If, however, I was somehow miraculously caught in this type of situation. My first and main concern would be to get the hell outta that situation...so, you betcha...I would be moving and firing, moving the hell away from the other guy with the gun. I figure he is concerned with getting shot himself, so would be hiding/covered and not taking the time to aim...just throwin lead. Which would be perfect for me, as I am moving at the utmost of super-humanly speed possible away and firing to keep him pinned. I teach Martial Arts, so I always tell my kids that if a person gets into a fight, there is a very good chance that they are going to be hit, as well as them hitting the other person...the best course of action is not to be in a fight, unless there is absolutely no other choice. I guess the same would go for a shootout with guns, since, from what I have learned here at TFL, most handguns have no One Shot Stopping Power, that gives the BG an opportunity to shoot me, even after I have shot him. Not very good choices. Just my thought.
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April 2, 2006, 09:01 AM | #43 | |
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Skyguy, Most of our military prior to the ousting Of Saddam had no combat experience, still they performed like champions. The reason is because they were prepared with excellent training.
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S'n'B, Can you PM me with the details of your next training session? When, where, how much, and how long. |
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April 2, 2006, 06:14 PM | #44 | |
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But most gunfights occur at very close distances where you cannot employ the run and gun tactic. So, the odds say that at close range you'll 'not' run.....rather you'll react with a startle response and you 'will' crouch out of fear. In that situation you must be able to point shoot. My advice...depending on distance....is to seek cover first. If you are too close or it's too sudden...crouch and point shoot. Ask any "expert". :) .
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April 2, 2006, 09:21 PM | #45 |
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I was invited to bring our tactical team to participate in a paintball contest by the owner of a local paintball facility. He said he had a group that would like to challenge us in a friendly competition. While discussing the idea, I was pretty confident that he would come up on the short end of the stick. He made the statement that police officers were the first to get shot in their competition. He told me through personal experience that officers almost all stopped, got into their shooting stance and were immediately shot by the other team who were constantly moving. I know accuracy is what wins the confrontation but these guys train to hit the target while moving. My department does some firing while moving, but once or twice a year does not make a person proficient. I know paintball guns hold more rounds and have no recoil than duty weapons, but we need to look at concealment if we are to carefully take aim during an armed engagement. Maybe we can learn something from these shooters of paint.
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April 2, 2006, 09:44 PM | #46 |
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What am I physically capable of?
I believe that there should be continuity to ones movement. I feel that one should train to get hits through the entire movement spectrum. There is no doubt about the importance of "stand and deliver" skills. I have spent hundreds and hundreds of hours on this skill with tens of thousands of drawstrokes. If my body chooses this solution to the problem, that skill will be there. I also see a need for very controlled movement that facilitates a precision shot on the move. This could include skills such as "just walk", side stepping (crab walk,) or even the old groucho (duck) walk. All three of these techniques have there place (however small they might be) and should be something that you can do on demand, if that demand arises. I practice head shots at logical distances with this type of movement. I also see a need to be able to get hits with your toes pointing the direction that you are moving. This type of movement has your upper body working independent from your lower body, "like a turret of a tank." Toes point the direction you are headed, body turreted the direction that you are shooting. This type of movement brings in your bi-lateral skills. Shooting to the firing side can be done two handed to a certain point, then you need to go one handed. The possible speed of this movement can cover the full spectrum, from a walk, to a jog, to a stride, to a run, and finally to a sprint. This is where you find what you are physically capable of. This is where the limitations are pushed, and the standards are set. Feints, jukes, cut backs and directional changes are also part of the movement skills set. One should explore there ability to use these skills and the limitations that different terrain/footing give you. React as you need to react, move as you need to move, and see what you need to see to solve the problem that you are confronted with. If you train with these basic concepts, you will have covered the vast majority of the possible situations. In covering these situations, your body will chose, with confidence, the appropriate solution. http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/index.php
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"Situations dictate strategy, strategy dictates tactics, tactics dictate techniques.....techniques should not dictate anything." Roger Phillips, Owner and Operator of Fight Focused Concepts |
April 3, 2006, 05:16 AM | #47 | |||
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Skyguy,
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BTW,I always prepare for being wounded (the best I can anyway) by drilling weak hand reloading and shooting and by mentally focusing on how to react if shot. Because "thats a gunfight". I just prefer to use the best tactics that would make those odds as small as possible. You yourself seem to agree that movement is recommended. Quote:
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April 3, 2006, 10:12 AM | #48 | |
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There's a world of difference between play fighting and real fighting....between harmless paper targets and someone determined to kill you. ...and if mutual wounding or mutual death scares you, stop carrying and just practice the tactic of raising your hands in surrender. Remember, you will most likely be ambushed rather than forewarned. .
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April 3, 2006, 01:48 PM | #49 |
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Skyguy, Let me ask you some questions.
1. Why is it recommended that we train regularly? 2. Why is it recommended that we move toward cover while engaging the treat? 3. In a super stressful encounter what happens to most well trained individuals? 4. In the same super stressful encounter what happens to the untrained individuals? My answers are below and are as I believe them to be true. They are also similar to many if not most of the firearms trainers I have looked at. 1. It is recommended that we train regularly so that we are proficient with our chosen weapon and so that when the poop hits the fan our brain will revert back to the training without conscious thought. IMHO 2. It is recommended that we move toward cover while shooting because it is harder to hit a moving target, cover can shield us (further increasing the chances of survival), and firing puts the bad guy under duress reducing his marksmanship. IMHO 3. In a super stressful situation most well trained individuals revert back to their training. IMHO 4. In a super stressful situation most untrained individuals......freeze. IMHO Based on what I have learned over the course of 15 plus years, common sense has nothing to do with someones response in a life and death encounter. That statement along with your suggestion that I should crouch and shoot so that I can achieve the hope of mutual wounding or death is what has me wondering the above questions. If only common sense is needed to know what to do in a gunfight then training would be as simple as an eight week college course on common sense. I could be wrong on my answers. If you disagree with the answers please give the source of your disagreement ie instructor saying different etc. Don't take this debate as argumentative. I'm always searching for better ways to do things. If your way is better, I am open to change. Thats why I want the source of your training, so that I can research that\those instructors. A prime example of my quest to get better is S'n'B's fluid response. I never tried to run while shooting one handed behind me. From very close distances (as you and I are discussing) this might work. If it does, I will be better. Thats fine by me. |
April 3, 2006, 03:13 PM | #50 | |
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