Strange Crushed Area On Hollow Point

Kentucky Rifle · March 19, 2001, 04:23 PM

A lot of you know that I purchased a new Seecamp and have had some problems with it. It fired every time, with no jams or malfunctions but the bullets were "keyholing". (Tumbling) I talked to Larry Seecamp and he told me that I wasn't the only one who was having keyholing problems with Silvertips. (Winchester had changed them a little and, being the sensitive little pistol it is, the Seecamp didn't like them anymore.

) Anyway, he said to switch to Gold Dots and the keyholing problem would go away. He was right. The Gold Dots were also a little cleaner and more accurate.
I just cleaned my Seecamp again and found a GD that had a hollow point bullet sort of "squeezed in" and not perfectly round any more. It's not closed entirely, but the hole is definitely mashed together in an oval. I noticed this ever once in a while when I was shooting Silvertips, also. I always load the magazine to five (one less than it's capacity) and rack the slide to put one in the chamber. Then I eject the mag and put another GD in so I can keep five in the mag and one in the chamber. What could be causing this occasional slightly "smashed" bullet? (No jokes about "green beer" either!

)

Thanks,
Kentucky Rifle

James K · March 19, 2001, 11:28 PM

You don't say whether the dented round was the one in the chamber or not. If it was the one in the chamber, it is likely that the bullet point is getting smashed in loading the chamber, a common occurrence with thin soft hollowpoints like the GD, and one of the reasons auto pistol makers usually recommend FMJs. That is easy to check; just examine the first round before you chamber it, then extract it and look at it.

The condition could also be caused if a round is in the magazine when the gun is fired, but then is not itself fired. Recoil can cause flattening of the nose. This is common with rifles, but not unknown with pistols.

Jim

blades67 · March 20, 2001, 01:05 AM

Jim has solved your problem. I have seen this with a variety of guns, though not to the point that the bullets have started keyholing.

Kentucky Rifle · March 20, 2001, 01:12 AM

I also wondered if, somehow, the open end of the hollow point could be getting squashed as it hit the feed ramp. However, I just ejected the top round and then the round under that, and they both looked just like they did when I took them out of the box this afternoon. Perfectly round. To tell the truth, I don't know where the round was that got the bullet end of the hollow point a little squashed. (It seems like it just would have to be the round that was already in the chamber.) I wonder if I could have somehow did it myself when I was unloading the magazine prior to cleaning the little pistol. My habit is to remove the magazine, eject all the rounds with my thumb, replace it and eject the round that is in the chamber. (With Seecamps, the magazine must be inserted or you can't pull the slide back far enough to eject the remaining round. With the magazine out, the trigger can't be pulled either.) Maybe I'm smashing a round with my thumb. I'll try to watch myself more carefully when I unload and clean the next time and try to catch the mistake.
Any other ideas would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Ky. Rifle

marsbars · March 20, 2001, 01:23 AM

I have the same problem on my Tomcat 32. The rounds will get a little deformed if then get cycled to many times. I don't see it as often now that I always load a round into the chamber using the tilt up barrel. But the silvertips did the same thing if they were manually chambered from the magazine. Also in the 32 auto there really isnt much of a bullet so the hollow point wall is probably pretty thin.

Southern Yankee · March 20, 2001, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Maybe I'm smashing a round with my thumb. I'll try to watch myself more carefully when I unload and clean the next time and try to catch the mistake.
Any other ideas would be appreciated.

Are you related to Shawn Connery? <Remember "Presidio" "I'll use my left thumb, because my right thumb is MUCH to powerful"> If your able to deform a JHP bullet with your thumb, YOU DA MAN!!
Sorry couldn't resist.

dgreen1069 · July 18, 2005, 05:10 PM

I realize this thread is pretty old, but I was wondering what the outcome was? I recently bought a Seecamp 32 and I qualified with it this morning. After qualifying, I noticed the exact problem that was described in this thread. I had three magazines which I had left one bullet in after shooting. The sole bullet left in each of the three magazines were deformed. The tips of the bullets were kinda ovaled, but not in a uniform way. Each bullet was the last one in the magazine.....a round was in the chamber each time the magazines were removed. I was shooting Hydroshok ammunition per the most recent recommendation on the Seecamp website. Any ideas? Is this a gun problem or an ammunition problem....or not a problem? I did notice that I had several shots that keyholed the target.

michael t · July 18, 2005, 11:56 PM

I don't think there ever was a answer and Kentucky Rifle passed away a while back. If really troubles you call Seecamp and ask him.

dgreen1069 · July 19, 2005, 10:01 AM

I am very sorry to hear about Kentucky Rifle, may he rest in peace. I did send Seecamp an email yesterday morning, but they have not replied. If anyone else with a Seecamp has experienced the same issue I would like to hear about it.
Dave

**Mal H** · July 19, 2005, 10:50 AM

Sounds like a magazine design problem if as many Seecamp's are involved as it appears to be. The mag cavity may be a little too long allowing the round to slide forward a few millimeters before being stopped by the concave front edge of the mag. An analogy of this would be like trying to pound in a nail while holding the hammer a few millimeters off the nail head - can't be done (tight magazine). But, back off a cm or so and you can give the nail a good hit (loose magazine).

The spring may need to be just a little stronger to give the last few rounds a little more friction.

I don't think the keyholing is related to the deformation problem at all. Things that cure keyholing - lighter/shorter bullet, higher bullet speed, faster barrel twist rate. All of those essentially lead to the same thing - higher bullet rotational speed. If the problem is inherent with rounds that are commonly used with a particular pistol, then the best (only?) solution is the last one, a faster twist rate.

dgreen1069 · July 19, 2005, 05:16 PM

I just received a message from Seecamp regarding the original post.

"Hi,

As the pistol recoils to the rear inertia drives the bullet nose into
the
front wall of the magazine.

This tends to make the bullet nose of rounds increasingly take on the
shape
of an egg or the grill of an Edsel as they move up in the magazine.

Nothing to be concerned about.

Regards,

Larry"

I guess this issue is not a problem at all. I greatly appreciate Larry's quick response to my question.
Dave

**Mal H** · July 19, 2005, 09:04 PM

That's what I was talking about. He might think it's not a problem, but to my way of thinking, anything that deforms the frontal section non-uniformly can't be a non-issue. I still think the mag cavity may be too long for the average round.

dgreen1069 · July 19, 2005, 09:25 PM

I sent a second email to Seecamp reference the keyholing I had noticed with the Hydroshok rounds I had been shooting. Larry wrote back and recommended, "Hornady 60 grain JHP/XTP". Maybe they are slightly longer than the Hydroshok which would futher prove your point.

March 19, 2001, 04:23 PM	#1
Kentucky Rifle Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 1999 Location: Louisville, Kentucky Posts: 2,687	A lot of you know that I purchased a new Seecamp and have had some problems with it. It fired every time, with no jams or malfunctions but the bullets were "keyholing". (Tumbling) I talked to Larry Seecamp and he told me that I wasn't the only one who was having keyholing problems with Silvertips. (Winchester had changed them a little and, being the sensitive little pistol it is, the Seecamp didn't like them anymore. ) Anyway, he said to switch to Gold Dots and the keyholing problem would go away. He was right. The Gold Dots were also a little cleaner and more accurate. I just cleaned my Seecamp again and found a GD that had a hollow point bullet sort of "squeezed in" and not perfectly round any more. It's not closed entirely, but the hole is definitely mashed together in an oval. I noticed this ever once in a while when I was shooting Silvertips, also. I always load the magazine to five (one less than it's capacity) and rack the slide to put one in the chamber. Then I eject the mag and put another GD in so I can keep five in the mag and one in the chamber. What could be causing this occasional slightly "smashed" bullet? (No jokes about "green beer" either!) Thanks, Kentucky Rifle

March 20, 2001, 01:05 AM	#3
blades67 Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 1999 Location: Chandler, Arizona, USA Posts: 6,014	Jim has solved your problem. I have seen this with a variety of guns, though not to the point that the bullets have started keyholing. __________________ Guns cause crime like spoons cause Rosie O'Donnell to be fat! I hunt, therefore I am.

March 20, 2001, 01:12 AM	#4
Kentucky Rifle Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 1999 Location: Louisville, Kentucky Posts: 2,687	Jim... I also wondered if, somehow, the open end of the hollow point could be getting squashed as it hit the feed ramp. However, I just ejected the top round and then the round under that, and they both looked just like they did when I took them out of the box this afternoon. Perfectly round. To tell the truth, I don't know where the round was that got the bullet end of the hollow point a little squashed. (It seems like it just would have to be the round that was already in the chamber.) I wonder if I could have somehow did it myself when I was unloading the magazine prior to cleaning the little pistol. My habit is to remove the magazine, eject all the rounds with my thumb, replace it and eject the round that is in the chamber. (With Seecamps, the magazine must be inserted or you can't pull the slide back far enough to eject the remaining round. With the magazine out, the trigger can't be pulled either.) Maybe I'm smashing a round with my thumb. I'll try to watch myself more carefully when I unload and clean the next time and try to catch the mistake. Any other ideas would be appreciated. Thanks, Ky. Rifle

March 20, 2001, 01:23 AM	#5
marsbars Member Join Date: July 28, 2000 Location: Spokane Wa. Posts: 72	I have the same problem on my Tomcat 32. The rounds will get a little deformed if then get cycled to many times. I don't see it as often now that I always load a round into the chamber using the tilt up barrel. But the silvertips did the same thing if they were manually chambered from the magazine. Also in the 32 auto there really isnt much of a bullet so the hollow point wall is probably pretty thin. __________________ Cold Steel & Warm Plastic

July 18, 2005, 11:56 PM	#8
michael t Senior Member Join Date: May 17, 2004 Location: Out back Ky Posts: 4,044	I don't think there ever was a answer and Kentucky Rifle passed away a while back. If really troubles you call Seecamp and ask him. __________________ Certified Armed Infidel Colt Defender ,Colt Mustang ,Dan Wesson CBOB, PPK/S, American Classic 1911,Bersa Thunder 380 http://bersachat.comHome of Bersa http://www.metroarms1911forum.com

March 19, 2001, 11:28 PM	#2
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	You don't say whether the dented round was the one in the chamber or not. If it was the one in the chamber, it is likely that the bullet point is getting smashed in loading the chamber, a common occurrence with thin soft hollowpoints like the GD, and one of the reasons auto pistol makers usually recommend FMJs. That is easy to check; just examine the first round before you chamber it, then extract it and look at it. The condition could also be caused if a round is in the magazine when the gun is fired, but then is not itself fired. Recoil can cause flattening of the nose. This is common with rifles, but not unknown with pistols. Jim

July 18, 2005, 05:10 PM	#7
dgreen1069 Junior Member Join Date: July 18, 2005 Posts: 4	I realize this thread is pretty old, but I was wondering what the outcome was? I recently bought a Seecamp 32 and I qualified with it this morning. After qualifying, I noticed the exact problem that was described in this thread. I had three magazines which I had left one bullet in after shooting. The sole bullet left in each of the three magazines were deformed. The tips of the bullets were kinda ovaled, but not in a uniform way. Each bullet was the last one in the magazine.....a round was in the chamber each time the magazines were removed. I was shooting Hydroshok ammunition per the most recent recommendation on the Seecamp website. Any ideas? Is this a gun problem or an ammunition problem....or not a problem? I did notice that I had several shots that keyholed the target.

July 19, 2005, 10:01 AM	#9
dgreen1069 Junior Member Join Date: July 18, 2005 Posts: 4	I am very sorry to hear about Kentucky Rifle, may he rest in peace. I did send Seecamp an email yesterday morning, but they have not replied. If anyone else with a Seecamp has experienced the same issue I would like to hear about it. Dave

July 19, 2005, 10:50 AM	#10
Mal H Staff Join Date: March 20, 1999 Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia Posts: 16,949	Sounds like a magazine design problem if as many Seecamp's are involved as it appears to be. The mag cavity may be a little too long allowing the round to slide forward a few millimeters before being stopped by the concave front edge of the mag. An analogy of this would be like trying to pound in a nail while holding the hammer a few millimeters off the nail head - can't be done (tight magazine). But, back off a cm or so and you can give the nail a good hit (loose magazine). The spring may need to be just a little stronger to give the last few rounds a little more friction. I don't think the keyholing is related to the deformation problem at all. Things that cure keyholing - lighter/shorter bullet, higher bullet speed, faster barrel twist rate. All of those essentially lead to the same thing - higher bullet rotational speed. If the problem is inherent with rounds that are commonly used with a particular pistol, then the best (only?) solution is the last one, a faster twist rate.

July 19, 2005, 05:16 PM	#11
dgreen1069 Junior Member Join Date: July 18, 2005 Posts: 4	I just received a message from Seecamp regarding the original post. "Hi, As the pistol recoils to the rear inertia drives the bullet nose into the front wall of the magazine. This tends to make the bullet nose of rounds increasingly take on the shape of an egg or the grill of an Edsel as they move up in the magazine. Nothing to be concerned about. Regards, Larry" I guess this issue is not a problem at all. I greatly appreciate Larry's quick response to my question. Dave

July 19, 2005, 09:04 PM	#12
Mal H Staff Join Date: March 20, 1999 Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia Posts: 16,949	That's what I was talking about. He might think it's not a problem, but to my way of thinking, anything that deforms the frontal section non-uniformly can't be a non-issue. I still think the mag cavity may be too long for the average round.

July 19, 2005, 09:25 PM	#13
dgreen1069 Junior Member Join Date: July 18, 2005 Posts: 4	I sent a second email to Seecamp reference the keyholing I had noticed with the Hydroshok rounds I had been shooting. Larry wrote back and recommended, "Hornady 60 grain JHP/XTP". Maybe they are slightly longer than the Hydroshok which would futher prove your point.