Non-lethal shotgun ammo

Thud · December 30, 2005, 10:40 AM

I'm trying to find out the best non-lethal ammo for shotgun, and I'd like to know also the best gauge for a shotgun intended only for home defense. Greetings, THUD.-

Clayfish · December 30, 2005, 11:23 AM

The best way to go is not to get that crap. It doesn't work! If a situation arises that you must defend your family and home You would be irresponsible to use equipment that will not work. Less than lethal ammo is intended for drowd control and not taking out the bad guy and whe it is used there is always another leo backing up with deadly force. Why? Because that stuff rarely fazes a bg who is doped up or really mad. The only nonlethal method I would trust is a taser but they are a thousand dollars a pop. WE discused this a couple weeks ago so check out this thread.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192258

Lee Lapin · January 1, 2006, 11:01 AM

If you are shooting a shotgun, you are by definition using deadly force. There is _NO_ nonlethal shotgun ammunition, to include blanks- a few years back we had a law enforcement officer killed in a training scenario by a blank round fired in close proximity. There is 'less lethal' shotgun ammunition, true, but it has no place in a private citizen's self defense toolbox IMHO.

lpl/nc

BigFunWMU · January 3, 2006, 07:11 AM

Getting beyond the non leathal ammo part, the shotgun you choose for HD has to some simple criteria:

1. You can shoot it, and hit what you aim at (at room length distances, you will be looking at a 6 inch pattern or so out of most defence shotguns)

2. It needs to be sufficently powerful to stop a threat.

I would reccomend a 12ga or 20ga. They tend to have the best ammo availibilty, and gun selection. 12ga with 3 1/2" shells is probably going to be overkill. 12ga with 3" is going to be about the heaviest you would need, and a 2 3/4" would definitely do the job, as would a 20ga with 3" or 2 3/4" shells.

I chose a 12ga, with 3" 00 buck. Good patterns, good stopper.

Ben

XavierBreath · January 3, 2006, 07:44 AM

Quote:

I'm trying to find out the best non-lethal ammo for shotgun

Non-lethal for who? The best non-lethal ammo for a 12 gauge is 00 Buck. A high percentage of people who shoot 00 Buck live through the encounter.

If you employ a shotgun (or any gun for that matter), as a civilian, you have employed lethal force, no matter what it is loaded with. Load it with something most likely to stop the threat. 00 low recoil Buck is my choice.

If you are squeamish about taking a life, then rethink the entire idea of having a shotgun. You might want an escape route and sneakers instead, and there is no shame in that. Give Dave Grossman's book "On Killing" a read, and work to develop a defensive mindset. That will serve you better than running shoes OR a shotgun. All the guns in the world will not save you from a person intent on killing you if you have this non-lethal mindset.

ron73644 · January 3, 2006, 08:57 AM

I don't understand these guys who don't think it's necessary to put a lethal load in their shotgun, if they are supposed to be protecting themselves and their family during the early morning hours......in your own home!!!! Intruders are not supposed to be in your house at night, or any other time!!!! Why don't you just get a Red Ryder BB Gun? I don't feel like going any farther with this...just set out some cookies and milk.

n3twrkm4n · January 3, 2006, 09:04 AM

I agree with all said, and with that I want to say that in New York it is a Felony to point an gun at an individual whether it is loaded or unloaded.

There was another thread related to rubber-coated buck-shot in which people disagreed with its use. I feel that if there is a need to pull a gun on someone to protect myself, I want to make damn sure I am protecting myself.

ron73644 · January 3, 2006, 09:13 AM

That sounds about right. If you point your gun at the intruder and he sees you committing this felony, maybe you can make a deal with him if he promises not to tell on you....naughty...naughty.....that is if he hasn't gone ahead and shot you.

Double Naught Spy · January 3, 2006, 10:45 AM

I think LAPD kept track of their less lethal shotgun rounds and found that they had a 2% or 4% death rate with using said bean bags. The problems stemmed from shots that either struck the head or that struck the body and did internal organ damage.

Thud, if you are using a shotgun for home defense, it seems like a bad idea to use less lethal rounds. Keep in mind that use of the shotgun means you are using lethal force and hence you are subject to the same legal consequences whether you using slugs, buck, bird, or bean bags.

If you feel the need to use lethal force to protect yourself and/or your family, you should consider using effective lethal force. Bean bags are not a great way to go because they don't have a high rate of working with the first shot.

You also have rubber balls that can be used. The problem is that they tend to be legal as well and in some cases are stated for use against non-vital areas (the legs). Shooting somebody in the chest with rubber balls can kill them.

Also, some rubber balls turn out to be rubber covered lead or steel. They kill too.

OneInTheChamber · January 3, 2006, 11:01 AM

Just watch the show jackass, they shot a guy with a bean bag load from nearly point blank range. It was funny; but it didn't stop the guy from laughing himself and getting back up. Shooting in self-defense is an all or nothing thing; you either don't use a gun or you fire until he drops to the ground.

Don't buy into the "i can scare him out with the chh-chk noise of my shotgun" either. Many people think this is a viable option; but its not. If they come after you have a round in the chamber and be ready to shoot him.

my .02c

Chase

Cmu_Sniper · January 3, 2006, 02:11 PM

Less lethal is no way to go for home defense.

HGKosteck · January 3, 2006, 03:57 PM

As has been stated here well, less-lethal loads are not useful for
HD.

If you are forced to use your weapon in your defense, you don't
want to use a round that may not stop your threat.

FailureByDesign · January 3, 2006, 04:30 PM

You really want to shoot a guy breaking into your house, or possibly going to inflict harm to your harm, and let him live??,, the way i look at it is i dont want some criminal, to go to the hospital, suffer real bad, then go serve a prison sentence and then when he/she gets out come looking for your family, and when they come back they aren't interested whats in your safe, they want blood, so if your going to put someone down coming into your house, dont let them get back up. I'm not saying shoot them a couple extra time when they are on the ground, but make sure the job is done the first shot, especially dont use a "less lethal ammo" ,, just my 2 cents.

ron73644 · January 3, 2006, 05:24 PM

Yeah, having a kind heart for others is a wonderful attribute, but a person will get himself killed by [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color] footing around in the dark (or daylight for that matter) in his own house trying to give an intruder a break. He will more than likely be armed and just as scared as you.

December 30, 2005, 10:40 AM	#1
Thud Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2005 Posts: 193	Non-lethal shotgun ammo I'm trying to find out the best non-lethal ammo for shotgun, and I'd like to know also the best gauge for a shotgun intended only for home defense. Greetings, THUD.-

January 3, 2006, 09:04 AM	#7
n3twrkm4n Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2004 Posts: 629	I agree with all said, and with that I want to say that in New York it is a Felony to point an gun at an individual whether it is loaded or unloaded. There was another thread related to rubber-coated buck-shot in which people disagreed with its use. I feel that if there is a need to pull a gun on someone to protect myself, I want to make damn sure I am protecting myself. __________________ There's no place like 127.0.0.1 > SELECT FROM users WHERE clue > 0 0 rows returned

January 3, 2006, 10:45 AM	#9
Double Naught Spy Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX Posts: 12,717	I think LAPD kept track of their less lethal shotgun rounds and found that they had a 2% or 4% death rate with using said bean bags. The problems stemmed from shots that either struck the head or that struck the body and did internal organ damage. Thud, if you are using a shotgun for home defense, it seems like a bad idea to use less lethal rounds. Keep in mind that use of the shotgun means you are using lethal force and hence you are subject to the same legal consequences whether you using slugs, buck, bird, or bean bags. If you feel the need to use lethal force to protect yourself and/or your family, you should consider using effective lethal force. Bean bags are not a great way to go because they don't have a high rate of working with the first shot. You also have rubber balls that can be used. The problem is that they tend to be legal as well and in some cases are stated for use against non-vital areas (the legs). Shooting somebody in the chest with rubber balls can kill them. Also, some rubber balls turn out to be rubber covered lead or steel. They kill too. __________________ "If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange

January 3, 2006, 11:01 AM	#10
OneInTheChamber Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 2005 Posts: 789	Just watch the show jackass, they shot a guy with a bean bag load from nearly point blank range. It was funny; but it didn't stop the guy from laughing himself and getting back up. Shooting in self-defense is an all or nothing thing; you either don't use a gun or you fire until he drops to the ground. Don't buy into the "i can scare him out with the chh-chk noise of my shotgun" either. Many people think this is a viable option; but its not. If they come after you have a round in the chamber and be ready to shoot him. my .02c Chase __________________ Insert witty, comical, and/or significant quote here.

December 30, 2005, 11:23 AM	#2
Clayfish Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2005 Location: Valdosta, GA Posts: 953	The best way to go is not to get that crap. It doesn't work! If a situation arises that you must defend your family and home You would be irresponsible to use equipment that will not work. Less than lethal ammo is intended for drowd control and not taking out the bad guy and whe it is used there is always another leo backing up with deadly force. Why? Because that stuff rarely fazes a bg who is doped up or really mad. The only nonlethal method I would trust is a taser but they are a thousand dollars a pop. WE discused this a couple weeks ago so check out this thread. http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192258

January 1, 2006, 11:01 AM	#3
Lee Lapin Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2004 Location: SE NC Posts: 1,239	If you are shooting a shotgun, you are by definition using deadly force. There is _NO_ nonlethal shotgun ammunition, to include blanks- a few years back we had a law enforcement officer killed in a training scenario by a blank round fired in close proximity. There is 'less lethal' shotgun ammunition, true, but it has no place in a private citizen's self defense toolbox IMHO. lpl/nc

January 3, 2006, 07:11 AM	#4
BigFunWMU Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2005 Posts: 304	Getting beyond the non leathal ammo part, the shotgun you choose for HD has to some simple criteria: 1. You can shoot it, and hit what you aim at (at room length distances, you will be looking at a 6 inch pattern or so out of most defence shotguns) 2. It needs to be sufficently powerful to stop a threat. I would reccomend a 12ga or 20ga. They tend to have the best ammo availibilty, and gun selection. 12ga with 3 1/2" shells is probably going to be overkill. 12ga with 3" is going to be about the heaviest you would need, and a 2 3/4" would definitely do the job, as would a 20ga with 3" or 2 3/4" shells. I chose a 12ga, with 3" 00 buck. Good patterns, good stopper. Ben

January 3, 2006, 08:57 AM	#6
ron73644 Senior Member Join Date: November 1, 2005 Posts: 141	I don't understand these guys who don't think it's necessary to put a lethal load in their shotgun, if they are supposed to be protecting themselves and their family during the early morning hours......in your own home!!!! Intruders are not supposed to be in your house at night, or any other time!!!! Why don't you just get a Red Ryder BB Gun? I don't feel like going any farther with this...just set out some cookies and milk.

January 3, 2006, 09:13 AM	#8
ron73644 Senior Member Join Date: November 1, 2005 Posts: 141	That sounds about right. If you point your gun at the intruder and he sees you committing this felony, maybe you can make a deal with him if he promises not to tell on you....naughty...naughty.....that is if he hasn't gone ahead and shot you.

January 3, 2006, 02:11 PM	#11
Cmu_Sniper Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 2005 Location: South Louisiana Posts: 181	Less lethal is no way to go for home defense.

January 3, 2006, 03:57 PM	#12
HGKosteck Member Join Date: December 30, 2005 Posts: 61	As has been stated here well, less-lethal loads are not useful for HD. If you are forced to use your weapon in your defense, you don't want to use a round that may not stop your threat.

January 3, 2006, 04:30 PM	#13
FailureByDesign Member Join Date: January 3, 2006 Posts: 93	You really want to shoot a guy breaking into your house, or possibly going to inflict harm to your harm, and let him live??,, the way i look at it is i dont want some criminal, to go to the hospital, suffer real bad, then go serve a prison sentence and then when he/she gets out come looking for your family, and when they come back they aren't interested whats in your safe, they want blood, so if your going to put someone down coming into your house, dont let them get back up. I'm not saying shoot them a couple extra time when they are on the ground, but make sure the job is done the first shot, especially dont use a "less lethal ammo" ,, just my 2 cents.

January 3, 2006, 05:24 PM	#14
ron73644 Senior Member Join Date: November 1, 2005 Posts: 141	Yeah, having a kind heart for others is a wonderful attribute, but a person will get himself killed by [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color] footing around in the dark (or daylight for that matter) in his own house trying to give an intruder a break. He will more than likely be armed and just as scared as you.