The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Skunkworks > Handloading, Reloading, and Bullet Casting

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old February 23, 2013, 05:52 PM   #26
Striker1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2004
Location: TX
Posts: 710
Can't really say as I haven't shot the rifle in about a year and I don't keep good records. I will say it will routinely group under an inch with 130 gr. Fusion or Winchester Ballistic Silver Tips. If memory serves, I believe I have shot a .5 ish 3 shot group with handloaded Sierra 130 gr. GKs.

I was pretty surprised with this group to say the least and don't know if I could do it again on demand. Generally, if I have a load (factory or handload) that groups under an inch, I am satisfied.
Striker1 is offline  
Old February 23, 2013, 07:23 PM   #27
Kayser
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 29, 2002
Location: Illinois :(
Posts: 550
I crimp everything except bolt action rifle rounds.
__________________
-----------------
Box Of Truth Afficionado!
Kayser is offline  
Old February 23, 2013, 07:43 PM   #28
steve4102
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2005
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,949
Bart, how about you forget about the speculations, opinions and Bench rest shooting techniques and post your real life experience with the Lee Factory Crimp die.

That way we can compare your Apples to our Apples. It will also give us a chance to help you figure out how to properly set up the LFCD for increased accuracy. Pictures of your results would be a big help.


Thanks, looking forward to your test results.
steve4102 is offline  
Old February 24, 2013, 12:16 AM   #29
Bart B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 8,927
Steve, I know better than to unbalance good bullets by putting an uneven groove around them. There's no way that crimp will create the same groove depth and shape all the way around. Therefore, the bullet's center of mass has shifted. That will unbalance them more than they already are. They'll jump further off the muzzle axis when they exit; and they all won't jump off axis in the same direction. To say nothing of the inconsistant and heavier release force it creates that increases muzzle velocity spread as well as making the pressure curve different for each shot.

Ever measured the release force amount and spread for crimped bullets to uncrimped ones? I have. That alone should convince folks not to crimp their bullets in place.
Bart B. is offline  
Old February 24, 2013, 12:45 AM   #30
TXGunNut
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 16, 2010
Location: If you have to ask...
Posts: 2,860
Don't ask me, ask my guns. Bolt rifles don't need crimp, neither do ugly black rifles with proper neck tension. Leverguns and handguns seem to like crimps. Some handguns like a heavy roll crimp, others a light taper crimp, a few like variations in between. Cast bullets need a bit of a flare to aid in seating and a crimp die is often used to straighten up the case mouth but that may not technically be called a crimp since it doesn't actually reduce the case mouth ID past the nominal ID after sizing. Haven't seen the need for a Lee FCD yet but the concept interests me, just waiting for the proper situation.
The 22lr doesn't belong in this conversation. It's a heeled bullet and doesn't lend itself to reloading.
__________________
Life Member NRA, TSRA
Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe
I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call Lonesome Dove
My favorite recipes start out with a handful of used wheelweights.
TXGunNut is offline  
Old February 24, 2013, 08:10 AM   #31
Bart B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 8,927
TXGunNut, people have reloaded .22 rimfire cases.

Grinding up match heads mixed with water to a paste, packing it in the rim of a case then letting it dry. A grain or so of black powder under a cast bullet stuck in the case. Worked fine for hunters in Siberia taking small game. One could get 2 or 3 reloads per case as long as it was indexed in the chamber so the firing pin would strike an undimpled point on the rim.
Bart B. is offline  
Old February 24, 2013, 08:32 AM   #32
steve4102
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2005
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,949
Quote:
Steve, I know better than to unbalance good bullets by putting an uneven groove around them. There's no way that crimp will create the same groove depth and shape all the way around. Therefore, the bullet's center of mass has shifted. That will unbalance them more than they already are. They'll jump further off the muzzle axis when they exit; and they all won't jump off axis in the same direction. To say nothing of the inconsistant and heavier release force it creates that increases muzzle velocity spread as well as making the pressure curve different for each shot.
More speculation and opinion? Afraid to try the LFCD? Excuse after excuse after excuse, but NO facts and no real data from your bench.

I actually test my loads and my theories at the bench. Sometimes my theories are correct, often times not. My real life testing disagrees with your opinions and theories. I have actually tested the LFCD and shown my results, where is your?
steve4102 is offline  
Old February 24, 2013, 08:34 AM   #33
steve4102
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2005
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,949
OH, and don't forget this real life test the disagrees with your opinions and theories.

http://www.accuratereloading.com/crimping.html
steve4102 is offline  
Old February 24, 2013, 08:47 AM   #34
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Austin, CO
Posts: 19,578
I don't have a cat in the fight over crimping but I would like to point out that personal experience is not always required to make an informed decision. I can learn a lot about the moon by talking to the people who went there, I don't have to do it myself.

I can guarantee that if crimping made for better accuracy, in the guns and with the loads that are used in competition, they WOULD be doing it. Those guys don't care about extra steps or a few bucks for another die. They want to win. Somebody in that game tests EVERYTHING that comes around and if it works, they do it. If they do it, others catch on and THEY do it. There's no way that the Lee FCD or any other crimp die makes THEIR ammo and guns more accurate. If it did, they WOULD be using it.

That said, those guns are a long way from our "normal" guns. We don't normally have $1,000 perfectly square actions and recoil lugs, perfectly bedded actions, $500 stocks, guns built by master gun-smiths, $600+ barrels, concentricity gauges, etc, and our entire die sets often cost 1/5th what those guys pay for a seating die.

Does a light crimp with the FCD or any other die help overcome some of the inadequacies in "normal" guns? I think maybe. Used correctly, there's evidence that it might. I say try it and find out.

In a high-end competition gun, no.
__________________
Nobody plans to screw up their lives...
...they just don't plan not to.
-Andy Stanley
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old February 24, 2013, 09:00 AM   #35
steve4102
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2005
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,949
Quote:
Does a light crimp with the FCD or any other die help overcome some of the inadequacies in "normal" guns? I think maybe. Used correctly, there's evidence that it might. I say try it and find out.

In a high-end competition gun, no.
Maybe, maybe not. This test says NOT.
http://www.accuratereloading.com/crimping.html

Check out the rifles used in this test. I would call them "High end".

223 REMINGTON: REMINGTON 40X, LEUPOLD 6.5-20X IN JEWEL LIVE CENTER RINGS ON KELBLY BASES.

243 WINCHESTER: REMINGTON 700 PSS, LEUPOLD 6.5-20X IN LEUPOLD MOUNTS.

308 WINCHESTER: SAKO TRG-21, BAUSCH & LOMB ELITE 4000 6-24 IN SAKO MOUNTS.

All three of these "high end" rifles showed improvement using the LFCD.
steve4102 is offline  
Old February 24, 2013, 09:13 AM   #36
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Austin, CO
Posts: 19,578
The point is, if it made competition ammo better in competition guns, they WOULD be using it.

Guys who make money, set records, win national/international competition will try EVERYTHING.

I don't have any more to say on it because I don't really care if it works or not in this particular gun or that particular gun or for that guy or this one.

I'm just pointing out the obvious. If it worked, in competition, they'd be using it. They don't, so it doesn't. It doesn't, so they don't.

If some new bat came out (that was legal) and made huge claims, a whole bunch of the best big league hitters would try it. If it worked, they'd use it. If it didn't, they wouldn't. The same is true of any and every other sport. The "big guys" find out what works and what doesn't and they use what does.

Everybody else argues about it.
__________________
Nobody plans to screw up their lives...
...they just don't plan not to.
-Andy Stanley
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old February 24, 2013, 09:35 AM   #37
steve4102
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2005
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,949
The proof is in the pudding. No woulda, coulda, shoulda, just a simple test that shows actual tested results.
steve4102 is offline  
Old February 24, 2013, 10:36 AM   #38
Slamfire
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2007
Posts: 5,261
Quote:
The proof is in the pudding. No woulda, coulda, shoulda, just a simple test that shows actual tested results.
They go out and win something Big. Prove it in the hard test of competitive shooting.

Google "F class matches" in your area, go to them and start winning.
__________________
If I'm not shooting, I'm reloading.
Slamfire is offline  
Old February 24, 2013, 10:45 AM   #39
steve4102
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2005
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,949
Quote:
They go out and win something Big. Prove it in the hard test of competitive shooting.

Google "F class matches" in your area, go to them and start winning.
There ya go again.

Never said my crimped rounds fired from my "Stock" off the shelf rifles could win anything, crimped or not.

Just stating the facts and showing actual tested results with my rifles and with others "High End" rifles. All of my posts show improvement with the Lee Factory Crimp die.

Whatcha got besides those grossly deformed bullet photos from someone that did not know how to correctly use the die?
steve4102 is offline  
Old February 24, 2013, 10:48 AM   #40
ScottRiqui
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2010
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 2,905
I keep coming back to Brian's argument, and can't really find any fault with it - if you have a procedure or piece of equipment that's legal for use in competitive shooting, but no one at the highest echelon of the sport is using it, that's pretty telling.

The only counterargument I could think of would be if there's something else that the competitors are doing/using that would obviate the need for crimping, but I can't think of what that would be.
ScottRiqui is offline  
Old February 24, 2013, 08:56 PM   #41
Slamfire
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2007
Posts: 5,261
Quote:
I keep coming back to Brian's argument, and can't really find any fault with it - if you have a procedure or piece of equipment that's legal for use in competitive shooting, but no one at the highest echelon of the sport is using it, that's pretty telling.

The only counterargument I could think of would be if there's something else that the competitors are doing/using that would obviate the need for crimping, but I can't think of what that would be
The proponents of the theory of increased accuracy of the lee crimp die are really following the “texas sharpshooter fallacy” http://www.fallacyfiles.org/texsharp.html People see patterns where none exist and we are seeing an example of advertizing induced behavior.
__________________
If I'm not shooting, I'm reloading.
Slamfire is offline  
Old February 24, 2013, 09:07 PM   #42
steve4102
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2005
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,949
Quote:
The proponents of the theory of increased accuracy of the lee crimp die are really following the “texas sharpshooter fallacy” http://www.fallacyfiles.org/texsharp.html People see patterns where none exist and we are seeing an example of advertizing induced behavior.
Or they just repeat what they heard or read on the internet without doing their own testing.. Real testing, not some smash the bullet all to hell as in the above photos, then claim the die doesn't work.
steve4102 is offline  
Old February 25, 2013, 11:28 AM   #43
Bart B.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Posts: 8,927
All it takes to see what the accuracy difference is between perfectly balanced bullets and those only very slightly unbalanced is to measure their unbalance amounts (using centrifugal force at a given rpm spin rate) then sort them into groups spaced by some arbitrary amounts. Full length size a bunch of .308 Win. cases reloading them with those groups of bullets. Then shoot them in an ordinary Win. 70 action with only its bolt and receiver face & lugs squared up for the Hart barrel then epoxy bedded in a plain wood stock. It's easy to see the difference between the perfectly balanced ones with .117 MOA accuracy and those slightly more unbalanced shooting .250 MOA. And the ones a lot out of balance would barely hold 1 MOA. This is at 600 yards where all the variables in the ammo are easily seen. At 100 yards, one would be very hard pressed to tell the difference. It's been done.

If your stuff (you + rifle + ammo) cannot discriminate to that level, any difference will be masked by much larger variables in the stuff used to test it.
Bart B. is offline  
Old February 25, 2013, 07:26 PM   #44
steve4102
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2005
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,949
Quote:
All it takes to see what the accuracy difference is between perfectly balanced bullets and those only very slightly unbalanced is to measure their unbalance amounts (using centrifugal force at a given rpm spin rate) then sort them into groups spaced by some arbitrary amounts. Full length size a bunch of .308 Win. cases reloading them with those groups of bullets. Then shoot them in an ordinary Win. 70 action with only its bolt and receiver face & lugs squared up for the Hart barrel then epoxy bedded in a plain wood stock. It's easy to see the difference between the perfectly balanced ones with .117 MOA accuracy and those slightly more unbalanced shooting .250 MOA. And the ones a lot out of balance would barely hold 1 MOA. This is at 600 yards where all the variables in the ammo are easily seen. At 100 yards, one would be very hard pressed to tell the difference. It's been done.

If your stuff (you + rifle + ammo) cannot discriminate to that level, any difference will be masked by much larger variables in the stuff used to test it.
Or you could load up some rounds with and some without the LFCD and head to the range. Pretty simple actually. Unless you are afraid you will find out that this die actually does what Lee and thousands of handloaders say it does, Improves accuracy.

I know, I know, wasting my time and yours. You will never run an accuracy test for yourself. You have theory and speculation, that's all you need.
steve4102 is offline  
Old February 25, 2013, 08:22 PM   #45
Slamfire
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2007
Posts: 5,261
Quote:
Or you could load up some rounds with and some without the LFCD and head to the range. Pretty simple actually. Unless you are afraid you will find out that this die actually does what Lee and thousands of handloaders say it does, Improves accuracy.

I know, I know, wasting my time and yours. You will never run an accuracy test for yourself. You have theory and speculation, that's all you need.
Or you could drive a couple of hours and start competiting in long range or mid range matches and find out that your conclusions based on 100 yard targets are bogus.

I think you are afraid to test your theories in front of observers.
__________________
If I'm not shooting, I'm reloading.
Slamfire is offline  
Old February 25, 2013, 09:20 PM   #46
steve4102
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2005
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,949
Quote:
Or you could drive a couple of hours and start competiting in long range or mid range matches and find out that your conclusions based on 100 yard targets are bogus.

I think you are afraid to test your theories in front of observers.
You could very well be right, but until I decide to do that, my simple 100 yard tests along with this simple 100 yard test will stand as positive proof the LFCD works and improves accuracy. What do you have besides smashed bullets as proof that it does not improve accuracy? Please, no more theories and opinions, just facts.

http://www.accuratereloading.com/crimping.html
steve4102 is offline  
Old February 25, 2013, 09:57 PM   #47
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Austin, CO
Posts: 19,578


__________________
Nobody plans to screw up their lives...
...they just don't plan not to.
-Andy Stanley
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:16 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.11511 seconds with 10 queries