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Old April 26, 2008, 11:46 AM   #1
The Shooting Cat
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Problems in setting off primers

Hi there,

my CZ 75 SP-01 Shadow has begun having problems in setting off primers. I'm using WSP standard primers, and I have one failure every 15 - 20 rounds. This all started after I set the DA trigger pull weight to approx 5.84 Lbs and the Sa to approx. 1.98 Lbs.

Today I have bought a couple of boxes of "Federal 100" primers. What do you think guys ? Was this a correct move ? I've heard Federal and Remington are the softest primers out there, so I hope this will solve the problem.

Also - last question - I've never heard comments about the Fiocchi nor the Sellier&Bellot primers (small pistol std). Where would you guys rank them compared to CCI, Winchester, etc..

Thanks!!

TSC
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Old April 26, 2008, 12:16 PM   #2
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Prime interest...

Shooting Cat--First place I'd look with FTF's, because it is probably the easiest to fix, would be to see if the primers are bottomed in the primer pockets of the brass. Primers that are a tad above the bottom of the pocket have that bit of room to move when struck by the firing pin, and that movement absorbs some of the firing pin's energy, which can result in the primer not detonating.

Thus, the FTF. The fix, of course, is to make sure you bottom the primers in the primer pockets of the cases. My experience is with a Lee Auto-Prime, but any hand priming device would work the same. Squash those primers right in there. You won't detonate 'em in yr hand, because primers are set off by percussion, not by steady pressure.

And by mashing the primers into the pockets, you ensure that they are bottomed. You also ensure, BTW, that the primer is below the base of the case where it should be. So that takes care of 2 problems at once.

Now, OTOH, if yr primers ARE bottomed, then you'll have to look elsewhere for the cause of your FTF's.
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Old April 26, 2008, 12:29 PM   #3
The Shooting Cat
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Hey Joe,

first of all thanks for the reply. Your suggestions is right, and making sure that the primer is well inserted into the pocket was one of the first things I cared when started handloading (not much time ago, btw). I check _every_ round with my finger, and I always feel that the primer is inserted so well that it actually is deeper in, than the round base - If I explain me well.

Btw: I thought that "FTF" meant "Failure to Feed" which now I realize it does not

Thx

TSC
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Old April 26, 2008, 12:44 PM   #4
mrawesome22
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FTF = Fail to fire.

Sounds to me that all you need to do is adjust the trigger pull back up until you get it right.
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Old April 26, 2008, 12:45 PM   #5
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Confusin', ain't it...

Shooting Cat--Glad to help; I have mixed feelings abt yr primer problem, as the solution I proposed wasn't any good. However I AM glad that you already bottom the primers.

"FTF" is confusing. It can mean "Failure To Feed" or "Failure To Fire," and which it means has to be figured out from context. That's not a good thing, as it can cloud up an otherwise clear statement, but usage seems to have assigned both meanings to this acronym.

For my part, if there seems to be a safety issue involved, I spell it out rather than using the acronym.

Now, as to YOUR FTF's, it would seem that the issue is with the firing pin strike rather than with the primers. And this may be a gunsmith issue, rather than something which can be solved sight-unseen over the I'net. Hope you can get the mystery solved one way or t'other.
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Old April 26, 2008, 12:53 PM   #6
The Shooting Cat
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Hey Joe -- thanks again for the help. And also for the xplanation about this US term. They rightfully say there's always so much to learn every day.

Concerning the.. FTF's I have. I had the gun cared by a pistolsmith couple months ago and he did and excellent trigger job. I just wanted to lighten the trigger a bit more (and I guess I did it a bit too much now).

The solution I would have handy, is go back to a stronger spring. That's OK. But I wanted to keep my current sping and solve the issue, that's why I was wondering with you guys about the Federal and Remington primers.

In my Country, we use much more the CCI and the Winchester rather than the Remington and the Federal, hence my questions.

Thanks!!

TSC
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Old April 26, 2008, 01:30 PM   #7
Hawg
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Federals are the softest by far. Some have detonated in auto prime systems.
I like CCI's and have some pretty light triggers.
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Old April 26, 2008, 02:08 PM   #8
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I just had the same problem with a CZ P-01 and CCI primers. Failure to Ignite a Primer. FTI. FTF is failure to feed. The problem was a light hammer spring at 17lbs. I went back to 18lbs (Factory is 19) and have not had a failure since. One pound makes a big difference! At 17lbs I had no failures to ignite primers in commercially made ammo except Fiocchi. CCI Primers for reloading appear to be harder than their Blazer Commercial ammunition.
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Old April 26, 2008, 06:56 PM   #9
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Well covered here... if your primers are seated well (and it sounds like you are checking that)... How did you reduce the DA pull weight? If you did it by putting a lower power hammer spring in, then that is the problem... I routinely put 18# hammer springs in my 1911's... the first one I modded that way would have random FTF's ... then I realized the physics of what was involved. My 1911's are Springfields, and they put Titanium firing pins in them (lighter than the GI-spec steel) with heavy mainsprings; my lighter mainspring just didn't have the oomph to transfer enough energy to that light firing pin. Solution: I installed a Steel firing pin... fixed it right up. Don't know if you changed the firing pin to a lighter one... if not, then you probably need to go back to the stock hammer spring or at least a heavier one than you have installed now.

Try the "pencil" test... unload the gun (totally), drop a standard pencil with eraser eraser-first into the barrel, cock the hammer, point the gun upwards (vertical) and "fire"... that pencil should leave the barrel with considerable velocity. I found in my case with the Ti firing pin and lower power spring, the pencil barely "jumped" in the barrel. When configured as stock, it nearly cleared the barrel, and with a steel FP, it jumped all the way out.
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Old April 27, 2008, 07:23 AM   #10
Leeman
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Don't crush primers!

Primers should be seated only until they bottom out. Additional pressure crushes the primer pellet and is the reason for misfires or uneven ignition.
The Lee Auto-Prime should be used only with Winchester or CCI primers. See your instructions.
If the primers don't seat flush, clean your primer pockets. If they still don't seat flush, don't use the case.
Federal primers are dangerous in the Lee Auto-Prime unless used with only 5 or 10 in the tray.
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Old April 27, 2008, 07:41 AM   #11
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Hi Leeman, thanks for your reply.

First, let me reassure that I don't use the Lee Auto Prime, but rather the Lee Safety Prime, which means that priming is done with one primer only in the press, while the others are in the tray. I've heard that using Federal or Remington with the Auto-Prime could be dangerous, but I've never heard anything about using them with the Safety Prime. Please correct me if you know differently.

Thanks also for the advice on how deep the primer should be inserted in the case. I'm wondering how I can make sure that I seat them always in the right, perfect manner. The pressure I exercise on the press lever could be different each time. Have you a method to suggest ?

Thanks

TSC
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Old April 27, 2008, 08:20 AM   #12
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Shooting Cat: The depth of your primer seating should be controlled by the engineered-in "stop" of the priming ram of your system. You shouldn't have to rely on your judgment about how hard you work the machine for getting proper priming depth. Just be sure that your work the machine all the way until it stops. And ALWAYS wear safety glasses!! The primer should be just below flush with the face of the case head.
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Old April 27, 2008, 02:41 PM   #13
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All good information from the folks here.

However, I don't think there's any mystery involved. I'll go out on the proverbial limb and say it is the trigger pull/hammer strength that is causing your problem. IMO, a 2 lb trigger pull is too light for an everyday gun (I'm not sure what technique you used to measure trigger pull to the nearest 1/100th of a pound). Unless you plan to use that pistol for targets and competition only, I would get the pull back to 3+ lbs.

To answer your question about the Federal primers - yes, they would probably help the situation. Feds use a little thinner cup and are a little easier to set off (which is also why they are not recommended with some priming systems).
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Old April 27, 2008, 02:59 PM   #14
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Hey Mal, all.

yes, I'm now convinced it must be "simply" the hammer spring which is now too light. Today I've used my dremel and I've given the firing pin a mirror finish. I will also do some tests again with WSP as primers, as well as with the Federal 100's.
Just for information, I exclusively use the gun for IPSC competition, and I measured the trigger pull using a Lyman electronic trigger pull gauge. I measured this in grams, and converted it into #, since you guys in the US don't use the metric system as we do here (Italy).

Thanks for having helped and assisted me with the trouble shooting, and also for the suggestions I have received. Folks here are both competent and available.

Bye Y'all.

TSC
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Old April 27, 2008, 03:08 PM   #15
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"Lyman electronic trigger pull gauge"

Ah! Now I understand how you did it. I'm so used to the spring gauges.
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Old April 27, 2008, 04:18 PM   #16
Leeman
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Primer Seating Depth

Hi Shooting Cat,
I agree with you on the Safety Prime. Any brand of primers are safe because those in the trough and tray are sufficiently remote from the one being seated. I found the feel of the Lee lever prime system is quite good on my breech lock press. Anyone as perceptive as you will do well with the feel alone.
To clarify my previous comment, I should have said that the primer should be seated at least flush or until it bottoms out. There is no need to force them below flush at the risk of damaging the primer pellet. Check some factory ammunition and you will find they are mostly flush. Seating below flush is something started a long time ago and traditions die hard.

Last edited by Leeman; April 28, 2008 at 10:27 AM.
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Old April 28, 2008, 02:08 AM   #17
The Shooting Cat
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Hey Leeman: thanks for the additional note.

Just one point of clarification (simply due to my not excellent command of your language): what do you mean with "below flush". From the meaning of the sentence, I'd think that "a primer seated below flush" means that it is inserted in deeper than the plain surface of the bottom of the case.

Am I right ? I'm sorry for not finding a better way to explain myself. If I'm not wrong, I'm sure you guys will be able to teach me the right way to explain the concept.

Thanks again !!

TSC
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Old April 28, 2008, 09:36 AM   #18
Mal H
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TSC - yes, that is exactly what he means.

I suppose the word "flush" doesn't translate very well into Italian.

One of the word's secondary meanings is "even with", or "in the same plane".
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Old April 28, 2008, 09:53 AM   #19
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Hey Mal - thanks!

TSC
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Old April 28, 2008, 11:49 AM   #20
Alleykat
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My experience is that some primers aren't seated to the bottom of the primer pocket, unless they're just below flush. My experience is also that I don't experience light primer strikes, either.
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Old May 3, 2008, 04:31 AM   #21
minnfinn
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I had similar intermittent failure to fire primers on cheaper factory and handloads for a Ruger .44 DA Redhawk I bought last year, when using WLP primers. I then switched to the Remington 2 1/2 (different for your caliber no doubt), which both Hornady and Hodgdon loading manuals called for this cartridge. My primers problems seem to have gone away since for this revolver. I think that different handguns, due to design and manufacturer characteristics will just function better and more consistently with certain ammo and reload components. While other handguns will fire nearly anything that you put in them (within specs of course).

So, now that I've found those combinatons of primer, powder type / charge, bullets that consistently work well together, I stick with them.
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Old May 3, 2008, 11:16 AM   #22
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If you are having to use significantly different amounts of pressure to seat your primers correctly, you might have a problem with the primer pockets themselves.

To assure all of your primer pockets are exactly the same, you might use something like this:

http://www.sinclairintl.com/cgi-bin/...003&type=store

I chuck the uniformer up in a drill press at about 700 rpm and can uniform about 5 cases per minute. Sinclair uniformers come in three sizes: small pistol/rifle, large pistol, and large rifle.

I ran into a batch of new Winchester 30-30 cases a couple of weeks ago that had very poor quality control on the primer pocket dimension. Some primers were almost impossible to seat. After uniforming, all required exactly the same amount of pressure to seat correctly.

I don't use this tool often, but when you need to fix tight or shallow primer pockets, nothing else will do.
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