trust question

usnavdoc · May 20, 2011, 07:07 AM

I just bought Quicken WillMaker Premium 2011 with Living Trust Maker. I plan on filling out the forms soon and then getting it notorized. Is that all that is needed or do you have to file something with a court?

I live in georgia. not sure if laws are different state by state.

Skans · May 24, 2011, 10:09 AM

In Georgia (as in most states), you do not need to file anything with the court to create a trust. However, I cannot vouch for whether the trust kit you are using will do everything you think it will do - you're on your own there. And, you will need to research exactly how it must be executed in Georgia to be valid, ie. how many witnesses, notarization, etc.

FYI, I've seen some really screwed-up self-made trusts before - tread carefully.

[FILA = free internet legal advice....worth what you paid for it]

Rifleman1776 · May 24, 2011, 11:41 AM

What caliber is it? Full auto?

usnavdoc · May 24, 2011, 01:09 PM

5.56 SBR and surpressor is what I am after. I will buy the barrel once I get the paper work back, but I finished the build to that point.

I found a lawyer willing to do the trust for 350$ at the range I went to last week. So Im going to use his services. Peace of mind is worth it.

glock20c · May 24, 2011, 03:44 PM

$350.00 is a good price,and a smart move...c-y-a!!

raisitup · May 25, 2011, 10:58 PM

One of the advantages of a trust over going the LLC route is the fact that you DON'T register it with the gov't.

A/C Guy · May 29, 2011, 05:48 PM

Quote:

I found a lawyer willing to do the trust for 350$ at the range I went to last week. So Im going to use his services. Peace of mind is worth it.

I would try using the software first. Take the finished printed copy to the lawyer. Ask his professional opinion. Have him redo the trust if necessary. Now you can redo your trust anytime with your software and not need to pay a lawyer; unless you move out of state.

Skans · May 31, 2011, 10:08 AM

If you have a lawyer who knows about trusts, knows how to one compliant for BATFE transfer purposes, and for $350 - just use the lawyer! FWIW, you wouldn't buy a Haynes manual to make your first attempt at rebuilding a Pontiac transmission and then take it to a transmission specialist to see if you did it the right way, would you? That's sort of like paying a doctor to read your obituary after you died from not following his advice.

usnavdoc · May 31, 2011, 11:29 AM

So I am using a lawyer to create my trust for several reasons..Under one of the provisions on the questionaire there is a place to put "Special Gun Trustee"

"The Special Gun Trustees’ powers may include
the following related to the Trust property: possession; handling and carrying; utilization; maintenance and or
repair; obtaining appraisals; contracting to sell, trade or transfer; transport; and assist the Trustee with any
regulatory or legal compliance, including but not limited to compliance with the National Firearm Act, 26 U.S.C.
Chapter 53."

My question is if I am present can I let someone else shoot my weapon legally or do they have to be listed as a special trustee. I have reservations about naming someone that can have authority to sell trade or transfer items.

Maxem0815 · May 31, 2011, 11:49 AM

OK folks this may not be the place to ask this but I think it follows the thread. I apologize for my ignorance but what is this trust and what is it for? I own a collection of full auto antiques so please enlighten me.
Thanks
Mace

Skans · June 3, 2011, 08:21 AM

Actually, the question about "what is a trust and what is it for" is a good one. You really need to start at the beginning if you intend on using one of these to obtain NFA items.

A trust is based on a special kind of written document. It can be used for a variety of reasons, but traditionally it is used to to devise or transfer your important "stuff" (stocks, bonds, bank accounts, financial assets, land, home, guns, jewelry, antiques, and other valuables) to your wife, kids, friends, etc on your death.

Very basically, you transfer title to your stuff to the XYZ trust that you set up. You name a trustee to look after this stuff and set out a bunch of rules, requirements, and contingencies that the trustee must follow in handling or giving away your stuff. In any trust, there are typically three sets of people: the Settlor, the Trustee (co-trustees and alternate trustees), and the beneficiaries. The Settlor is you - the person who establishes the trust. The Trustee can also be you during your lifetime, but it can also be someone else that you wish to designate should you become incapacitated. On your death, the trust you set up will designate a "trusted" individual to take over as trustee - this could be a co-trustee or successor trustee. The trustee is the person in charge of caring for the stuff placed in trust, selling the stuff if necessary to pay obligations of the trust, and then distributing the stuff to other people when you die or when some other event is stated. The beneficiaries are those folks who get the benefit of the stuff placed in trust. During your lifetime, it is usually (not always) you. On your death, it is usually your wife, kids, friends, and charities.

So, how does your stuff get into a trust? Well, with bank and securities accounts, you typically have to re-name or re-open those accounts in the name of your trust. Vehicles can be transferred into trust by re-titling it in the name of the trust (although not usually advisable). Personal property, like non-NFA guns are typically transferred by Bill of Sale - just a document showing that you have transferred specified guns, etc. into your trust.

Trusts are often used to avoid probate - i.e. avoid having your relatives having to go to court after you die to deal with all of the stuff you own and is titled to you. That is primarily what they were intended for. With a trust, there typically is no need to involve the court in your private affairs - it will all be handled by your trustee in accordance with the directives you give him in your trust. There are many types of trusts and many other reasons why trusts are used other than to avoid probate - too involved to discuss here.

People use trusts to acquire NFA items because: 1) you don't need to get the CLEO to sign off on your Form 4; and 2) unlike a corporation or LLC, there is no initial or annual fee that needs to be paid to your state for setting up and maintaining a corp or LLC. These types of trusts look a lot like the type of trust used to avoid probate - they basically work the same way. Machine guns, silencers, etc. typically have to be acquired in the name of the trust. This is basically an ordinary trust, but may have some specific provisions for NFA purposes. I suppose you could transfer NFA items you own into a trust, but then you'd have to do the transfer paperwork, use a Class III Dealer for the transfer and pay the stamp tax again.

Hope this wasn't too confusing.

sigcurious · June 3, 2011, 01:39 PM

What Skans described is pretty much spot on. Just remember the local laws are one thing and the IRS is another, if the trust generates income or has taxable capital gains, don't forget to consult someone about the tax aspects. darn taxes! :barf:

HYPERSS · June 3, 2011, 02:06 PM

On a side note.
Be aware that the ATF Unit responsible in handing the paperwork have begun to examine the Trust issues further.
If you use one of the do-it-yourself Quicken trust or any other not vetted by a lawyer it is possible that the trust be found invalid.
The finding that the trust is improper or illegal is not immediate.

So in essence you can be approved for your Form 1 or Form 4 transfer and at a later date after you picked up your NFA weapon and are enjoying it. The ATF can declare the trust illegal, you are now in possession of a illegal NFA weapon and that can mean big fines/jail/loss of the "illegal" firearm.
You are also open to further legal action in your state if NFA weapons are allowed only under a trust.

As many of the writers here have suggested have a lawyer write the NFA trust and you should be good.

I went that way and have a NFA trust just for the NFA firearms.

Maxem0815 · June 16, 2011, 05:39 AM

Thanks gentleman
Mace

oldkim · June 25, 2011, 01:06 PM

Washington recently passed HB 1016 making it legal for residents that have suppressors shoot them.

History: it's always been legal to own NFA items but not legal to shoot them in Washington. This new "revised" law makes it legal after Friday, July 22, 2011.

So if you live near the Seattle area... and want to find out more about how to buy a suppressor (aka silencer or can)... there is a meeting coming up on Sunday, July 17, 2011.

http://waguns.org/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=1223

This link gives the overall info on NFA items:
http://waguns.org/viewforum.php?f=41

Process by which one obtains a NFA item:
http://waguns.org/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=336

Discussion on Trust:
http://waguns.org/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=306

You can contact me (I'm coordinating the meeting) at www.shootonthemove.org/contact

May 20, 2011, 07:07 AM	#1
usnavdoc Member Join Date: March 1, 2008 Posts: 84	trust question I just bought Quicken WillMaker Premium 2011 with Living Trust Maker. I plan on filling out the forms soon and then getting it notorized. Is that all that is needed or do you have to file something with a court? I live in georgia. not sure if laws are different state by state.

May 31, 2011, 11:29 AM	#9
usnavdoc Member Join Date: March 1, 2008 Posts: 84	new trust question So I am using a lawyer to create my trust for several reasons..Under one of the provisions on the questionaire there is a place to put "Special Gun Trustee" "The Special Gun Trustees’ powers may include the following related to the Trust property: possession; handling and carrying; utilization; maintenance and or repair; obtaining appraisals; contracting to sell, trade or transfer; transport; and assist the Trustee with any regulatory or legal compliance, including but not limited to compliance with the National Firearm Act, 26 U.S.C. Chapter 53." My question is if I am present can I let someone else shoot my weapon legally or do they have to be listed as a special trustee. I have reservations about naming someone that can have authority to sell trade or transfer items.

June 3, 2011, 08:21 AM	#11
Skans Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2008 Posts: 11,132	Actually, the question about "what is a trust and what is it for" is a good one. You really need to start at the beginning if you intend on using one of these to obtain NFA items. A trust is based on a special kind of written document. It can be used for a variety of reasons, but traditionally it is used to to devise or transfer your important "stuff" (stocks, bonds, bank accounts, financial assets, land, home, guns, jewelry, antiques, and other valuables) to your wife, kids, friends, etc on your death. Very basically, you transfer title to your stuff to the XYZ trust that you set up. You name a trustee to look after this stuff and set out a bunch of rules, requirements, and contingencies that the trustee must follow in handling or giving away your stuff. In any trust, there are typically three sets of people: the Settlor, the Trustee (co-trustees and alternate trustees), and the beneficiaries. The Settlor is you - the person who establishes the trust. The Trustee can also be you during your lifetime, but it can also be someone else that you wish to designate should you become incapacitated. On your death, the trust you set up will designate a "trusted" individual to take over as trustee - this could be a co-trustee or successor trustee. The trustee is the person in charge of caring for the stuff placed in trust, selling the stuff if necessary to pay obligations of the trust, and then distributing the stuff to other people when you die or when some other event is stated. The beneficiaries are those folks who get the benefit of the stuff placed in trust. During your lifetime, it is usually (not always) you. On your death, it is usually your wife, kids, friends, and charities. So, how does your stuff get into a trust? Well, with bank and securities accounts, you typically have to re-name or re-open those accounts in the name of your trust. Vehicles can be transferred into trust by re-titling it in the name of the trust (although not usually advisable). Personal property, like non-NFA guns are typically transferred by Bill of Sale - just a document showing that you have transferred specified guns, etc. into your trust. Trusts are often used to avoid probate - i.e. avoid having your relatives having to go to court after you die to deal with all of the stuff you own and is titled to you. That is primarily what they were intended for. With a trust, there typically is no need to involve the court in your private affairs - it will all be handled by your trustee in accordance with the directives you give him in your trust. There are many types of trusts and many other reasons why trusts are used other than to avoid probate - too involved to discuss here. People use trusts to acquire NFA items because: 1) you don't need to get the CLEO to sign off on your Form 4; and 2) unlike a corporation or LLC, there is no initial or annual fee that needs to be paid to your state for setting up and maintaining a corp or LLC. These types of trusts look a lot like the type of trust used to avoid probate - they basically work the same way. Machine guns, silencers, etc. typically have to be acquired in the name of the trust. This is basically an ordinary trust, but may have some specific provisions for NFA purposes. I suppose you could transfer NFA items you own into a trust, but then you'd have to do the transfer paperwork, use a Class III Dealer for the transfer and pay the stamp tax again. Hope this wasn't too confusing. Last edited by Skans; June 3, 2011 at 03:24 PM.

June 3, 2011, 02:06 PM	#13
HYPERSS Junior Member Join Date: January 16, 2001 Location: Kalifornia Posts: 14	Trust Info On a side note. Be aware that the ATF Unit responsible in handing the paperwork have begun to examine the Trust issues further. If you use one of the do-it-yourself Quicken trust or any other not vetted by a lawyer it is possible that the trust be found invalid. The finding that the trust is improper or illegal is not immediate. So in essence you can be approved for your Form 1 or Form 4 transfer and at a later date after you picked up your NFA weapon and are enjoying it. The ATF can declare the trust illegal, you are now in possession of a illegal NFA weapon and that can mean big fines/jail/loss of the "illegal" firearm. You are also open to further legal action in your state if NFA weapons are allowed only under a trust. As many of the writers here have suggested have a lawyer write the NFA trust and you should be good. I went that way and have a NFA trust just for the NFA firearms. __________________ I am the hunter..are you food?

June 25, 2011, 01:06 PM	#15
oldkim Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2008 Location: Renton, WA Posts: 462	For those near the Seattle area Washington recently passed HB 1016 making it legal for residents that have suppressors shoot them. History: it's always been legal to own NFA items but not legal to shoot them in Washington. This new "revised" law makes it legal after Friday, July 22, 2011. So if you live near the Seattle area... and want to find out more about how to buy a suppressor (aka silencer or can)... there is a meeting coming up on Sunday, July 17, 2011. http://waguns.org/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=1223 This link gives the overall info on NFA items: http://waguns.org/viewforum.php?f=41 Process by which one obtains a NFA item: http://waguns.org/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=336 Discussion on Trust: http://waguns.org/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=306 You can contact me (I'm coordinating the meeting) at www.shootonthemove.org/contact __________________ "Shoot Safetly, Shoot Often and Share Your Sport." Jim Scoutten, Shooting USA Check out my new website: www.shootonthemove.org

May 24, 2011, 10:09 AM	#2
Skans Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2008 Posts: 11,132	In Georgia (as in most states), you do not need to file anything with the court to create a trust. However, I cannot vouch for whether the trust kit you are using will do everything you think it will do - you're on your own there. And, you will need to research exactly how it must be executed in Georgia to be valid, ie. how many witnesses, notarization, etc. FYI, I've seen some really screwed-up self-made trusts before - tread carefully. [FILA = free internet legal advice....worth what you paid for it]

May 24, 2011, 11:41 AM	#3
Rifleman1776 Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2010 Location: Arkansas Posts: 3,309	What caliber is it? Full auto?

May 24, 2011, 01:09 PM	#4
usnavdoc Member Join Date: March 1, 2008 Posts: 84	5.56 SBR and surpressor is what I am after. I will buy the barrel once I get the paper work back, but I finished the build to that point. I found a lawyer willing to do the trust for 350$ at the range I went to last week. So Im going to use his services. Peace of mind is worth it.

May 24, 2011, 03:44 PM	#5
glock20c Member Join Date: April 18, 2011 Location: Central Florida Posts: 89	$350.00 is a good price,and a smart move...c-y-a!!

May 25, 2011, 10:58 PM	#6
raisitup Member Join Date: January 2, 2010 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 56	One of the advantages of a trust over going the LLC route is the fact that you DON'T register it with the gov't.

May 31, 2011, 10:08 AM	#8
Skans Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2008 Posts: 11,132	If you have a lawyer who knows about trusts, knows how to one compliant for BATFE transfer purposes, and for $350 - just use the lawyer! FWIW, you wouldn't buy a Haynes manual to make your first attempt at rebuilding a Pontiac transmission and then take it to a transmission specialist to see if you did it the right way, would you? That's sort of like paying a doctor to read your obituary after you died from not following his advice.

May 31, 2011, 11:49 AM	#10
Maxem0815 Junior member Join Date: May 23, 2011 Posts: 216	OK folks this may not be the place to ask this but I think it follows the thread. I apologize for my ignorance but what is this trust and what is it for? I own a collection of full auto antiques so please enlighten me. Thanks Mace

June 3, 2011, 01:39 PM	#12
sigcurious Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 2011 Posts: 1,755	What Skans described is pretty much spot on. Just remember the local laws are one thing and the IRS is another, if the trust generates income or has taxable capital gains, don't forget to consult someone about the tax aspects. darn taxes! :barf:

June 16, 2011, 05:39 AM	#14
Maxem0815 Junior member Join Date: May 23, 2011 Posts: 216	Thanks gentleman Mace

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