Are we arguing the wrong point?

Eric Yarnell · October 25, 2002, 02:58 PM

As I've been looking over the recent posts about the DC shooter it seems quite clear that the background check system failed. He had a felony, walked into a store, and walked out with a gun. The system is a waste of our tax dollars - no surprise there.

Alot of folks here have pointed this out.

My question is if we continue to point out that the system stinks, aren't we opening the door for the liberals to come back with "You're right! It's not working! So now let's put something in place that really will work."

I'm not sure I want to go down that road.

Fly320s · October 25, 2002, 04:18 PM

I haven't heard the news that he bought the rifle from a dealer.

If so, then the system did fail. Maybe it is time for a change in the way the background check is conducted.

Our justice system is not much more reliable than the background check (NCICs?). But it works most of the time. When a failure is detected, someone acts to correct the situation and work on preventing a recurrence.

It's not perfect. Nothing made by humans is.

FWIW, I think we should scrap the whole system.

Justin · October 25, 2002, 05:12 PM

It has, indeed, been confirmed that he purchased the rifle at a gun shop.

spacemanspiff · October 25, 2002, 05:22 PM

i hate to bring this up, but the topic is something thats been kind of bothering me the last couple of weeks.
i usually have a delay in getting approval on the NICS check, and there are two reasons why: 1. i had a dwi several years ago, and 2. there is someone else with my exact same name. so the last gun i bought, a P22 from the local cop shop, i told the guy that i didnt expect to take it home right then, theres a day or two delay in getting approved. so the guy goes to make the call and a few minutes later he walks back out and hands me a box with my new purchase, and says 'you're good to go' with a smirk on his face, that made me really uneasy. then he said 'well the systems updated, and considering you were approved for other purchases there was no delay, at least not here in my store.'

i couldnt shake the feeling that my info WAS delayed and he let me take the gun home anyways. what am i going to do? ask for proof that i was approved?

boing · October 25, 2002, 11:28 PM

You need proof of nothing. You're legally allowed to own the gun. Any delay doesn't make you more legitimate as a lawful gun owner, and I'm not aware of any requirement that makes it your responsibility to ensure dotted i's and crossed t's on the process (short of filling out the form correctly and honestly).

FWIW

Fred Hansen · October 26, 2002, 01:37 PM

As always, it's not about the gun(s). If a person has been adjudicated so dangerous that they should not be allowed to own a gun, then they should be:

A) Enjoying an eternal dirt-nap courtesy of their victim, or courtesy of the state. (Either would suffice as the prefered method; the recidivism rate using this method is zero.)

Or

B) In @#%$*%^ jail.

Having them loose on the street is a brain damaged way to run a society.

Kharn · October 26, 2002, 02:24 PM

Spacemanspiff: Lots of people that previously got delayed are now getting instant approvals. Apparently, if the NICS check doesnt get an immediate yes or no, the call gets transfered to the FBI who (most of the time) give an instant yes or no.

Kharn

spacemanspiff · October 26, 2002, 03:04 PM

that makes me feel a little better, and the only reason i felt uneasy was that this was a cop shop who i would expect would do everything by the book, but like i said, what would i do? call him a liar??

Double Naught Spy · October 26, 2002, 03:14 PM

Maybe I missed this, but exactly what felony had Muhammed committed? My understanding was that he had an injunction filed against him to stay away from a woman, ostensibly due to violence, but he was never arrested for that as I recall. If that was the event, it was no felony. He definitely was not supposed to buy any guns after that event, and he did, but it wasn't a felony.

John/az2 · October 26, 2002, 03:17 PM

Spacemanspiff,

When was it a consititutional requirement to get a background to purchase a gun.

The system of law and order is broken, and the background check is a band-aid on a cancerous situation.

AnotherPundit · October 26, 2002, 04:05 PM

the mystery deepens:

Quote:

TACOMA - Federal agents said Saturday they have found no records to indicate how a rifle used in Washington, D.C-area sniper shootings got into the hands of suspect John Allen Muhammad.

The gun arrived at Bull's Eye Shooter Supply in June 2002, but the store apparently has no records indicating it was ever sold, said Richard Van Loan, a Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms agent involved in the search.

Agents spent a third day at Bull's Eye on Saturday trying to "find out how the gun got out of the store," Van Loan said.

They are also taking inventory of every gun there and trying to determine if others are missing, he said.

The Seattle Times reported Saturday that two years ago, an ATF audit of the shop found it lacked records for 150 gun sales. Gun dealers are required to keep such records.

http://www.komotv.com/stories/21034.htm

BigG · October 26, 2002, 04:57 PM

A few days ago somebody quoted from Mohammed's form that he filed when he bought the gun or am I mistaken?

Lavan · October 26, 2002, 05:29 PM

better start praying and praying.....right NOW.

When it's a gun and the "buck stops here" you betta be able to show it or SOMETHING.

I pity the owner of that shop. UNLESS he just bent da rules a bit, in which case he can be Muhammad's neighbor for the rest of his life.

October 25, 2002, 02:58 PM	#1
Eric Yarnell Junior Member Join Date: August 2, 2001 Posts: 5	Are we arguing the wrong point? As I've been looking over the recent posts about the DC shooter it seems quite clear that the background check system failed. He had a felony, walked into a store, and walked out with a gun. The system is a waste of our tax dollars - no surprise there. Alot of folks here have pointed this out. My question is if we continue to point out that the system stinks, aren't we opening the door for the liberals to come back with "You're right! It's not working! So now let's put something in place that really will work." I'm not sure I want to go down that road.

October 25, 2002, 04:18 PM	#2
Fly320s Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2001 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 281	I haven't heard the news that he bought the rifle from a dealer. If so, then the system did fail. Maybe it is time for a change in the way the background check is conducted. Our justice system is not much more reliable than the background check (NCICs?). But it works most of the time. When a failure is detected, someone acts to correct the situation and work on preventing a recurrence. It's not perfect. Nothing made by humans is. FWIW, I think we should scrap the whole system. __________________ Cognito, ergo shoot.

October 25, 2002, 05:22 PM	#4
spacemanspiff Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2002 Location: alaska Posts: 3,498	i hate to bring this up, but the topic is something thats been kind of bothering me the last couple of weeks. i usually have a delay in getting approval on the NICS check, and there are two reasons why: 1. i had a dwi several years ago, and 2. there is someone else with my exact same name. so the last gun i bought, a P22 from the local cop shop, i told the guy that i didnt expect to take it home right then, theres a day or two delay in getting approved. so the guy goes to make the call and a few minutes later he walks back out and hands me a box with my new purchase, and says 'you're good to go' with a smirk on his face, that made me really uneasy. then he said 'well the systems updated, and considering you were approved for other purchases there was no delay, at least not here in my store.' i couldnt shake the feeling that my info WAS delayed and he let me take the gun home anyways. what am i going to do? ask for proof that i was approved? __________________ "Every man alone is sincere; at the entrance of a second person hypocrisy begins." - Ralph Waldo Emerson "People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use." - Soren Kierkegaard

October 26, 2002, 01:37 PM	#6
Fred Hansen Senior Member Join Date: May 30, 2001 Location: The middle of WWIII Posts: 3,335	As always, it's not about the gun(s). If a person has been adjudicated so dangerous that they should not be allowed to own a gun, then they should be: A) Enjoying an eternal dirt-nap courtesy of their victim, or courtesy of the state. (Either would suffice as the prefered method; the recidivism rate using this method is zero.) Or B) In @#%$*%^ jail. Having them loose on the street is a brain damaged way to run a society. __________________ "This started out as a documentary on gun violence in America, but the largest mass murder in our history was just committed -- without the use of a single gun! Not a single bullet fired! No bomb was set off, no missile was fired, no weapon (i.e., a device that was solely and specifically manufactured to kill humans) was used. A boxcutter! -- I can't stop thinking about this. A thousand gun control laws would not have prevented this massacre. What am I doing?" Michael Moore

October 26, 2002, 03:04 PM	#8
spacemanspiff Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2002 Location: alaska Posts: 3,498	that makes me feel a little better, and the only reason i felt uneasy was that this was a cop shop who i would expect would do everything by the book, but like i said, what would i do? call him a liar?? __________________ "Every man alone is sincere; at the entrance of a second person hypocrisy begins." - Ralph Waldo Emerson "People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use." - Soren Kierkegaard

October 25, 2002, 05:12 PM	#3
Justin Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs Posts: 1,641	It has, indeed, been confirmed that he purchased the rifle at a gun shop.

October 25, 2002, 11:28 PM	#5
boing Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 1998 Location: WNC Posts: 1,072	You need proof of nothing. You're legally allowed to own the gun. Any delay doesn't make you more legitimate as a lawful gun owner, and I'm not aware of any requirement that makes it your responsibility to ensure dotted i's and crossed t's on the process (short of filling out the form correctly and honestly). FWIW

October 26, 2002, 02:24 PM	#7
Kharn Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Maryland Posts: 1,531	Spacemanspiff: Lots of people that previously got delayed are now getting instant approvals. Apparently, if the NICS check doesnt get an immediate yes or no, the call gets transfered to the FBI who (most of the time) give an instant yes or no. Kharn

October 26, 2002, 03:14 PM	#9
Double Naught Spy Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX Posts: 12,717	Maybe I missed this, but exactly what felony had Muhammed committed? My understanding was that he had an injunction filed against him to stay away from a woman, ostensibly due to violence, but he was never arrested for that as I recall. If that was the event, it was no felony. He definitely was not supposed to buy any guns after that event, and he did, but it wasn't a felony. __________________ "If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange

October 26, 2002, 03:17 PM	#10
John/az2 Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 1999 Location: Arizona Posts: 2,729	Spacemanspiff, When was it a consititutional requirement to get a background to purchase a gun. The system of law and order is broken, and the background check is a band-aid on a cancerous situation. __________________ John/az Six Blind Sheep \| The Publishing Site \| Online Product Reviews

October 26, 2002, 04:57 PM	#12
BigG Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 1999 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 4,334	A few days ago somebody quoted from Mohammed's form that he filed when he bought the gun or am I mistaken? __________________ o "The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the end of the world is fast approaching." Assyrian tablet, c. 2800 BC o "In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man brave, hated, and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain o "They have gun control in Cuba. They have universal health care in Cuba. So why do they want to come here?" Paul Harvey o TODAY WE CARVE OUT OUR OWN OMENS! Leonidas, Thermopylae, 480 BC

October 26, 2002, 05:29 PM	#13
Lavan Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 1999 Location: California Posts: 2,714	Bull's Eye Shooter Supply better start praying and praying.....right NOW. When it's a gun and the "buck stops here" you betta be able to show it or SOMETHING. I pity the owner of that shop. UNLESS he just bent da rules a bit, in which case he can be Muhammad's neighbor for the rest of his life.

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