Wideners "Once Fired" Lake City 7.62X51 brass

Thirdeye · June 16, 2009, 09:53 PM

Hi everyone. I didn't see an "introduce yourself" forum, so I guess I will do it here. New to the site, not new to shooting, reloading, or EBRs. Right now I'm mostly into precision shooting with my DPMS LR 308, A3 upper, 24" fluted bbl. I'm currently in the process of finding that "perfect load" for her. She's showing quite a bit of promise with what I've run thus far. All she eats are handloads. I figure that's the least I could do for her.

I'm still running the factory trigger though I've done some stone-work to the sear and disconnecter. Haven't started tweaking the travel yet but soon will. If that doesn't satisfy me, I will start looking for an after market match trigger for her.

So, now for my question:

I just received 500 pieces of Wideners "Once Fired" Lake City 7.62X51 brass. They claim on their website that the stuff is once fired military brass. After processing them, I am finding that almost every single one seems to have been reloaded before. A few things are telling me this.

1. The primer crimp has already been swedged out.
2. You can see on the necks where they have been run through a neck sizing die.
3. Some of the case heads have permanent marker markings on them.

I'm wondering if anyone else has bought some of these and had the same experience?

I sent Wideners an email and they claim to not have a clue what Im talking about. I tried to take pics but I cant the the focus good enough to show what I'm talking about.

I'm not ready to make accusations yet, I'm still researching the problem.

Here's the link to the stuff I bought.

http://www.wideners.com/itemdetail.c...78|282|291|390

csmsss · June 16, 2009, 10:05 PM

Dunno about what Widener's sent you, but the .308 brass I got from Scharch several months back was absolutely terrific. Next time you order some milsurp brass, you might want to check them out - http://www.scharch.com/products.php?cat=10)

Though they tell you to expect different headstamps, each one I've looked at in my shipment was Lake City.

eganx · June 16, 2009, 10:40 PM

I'll second Scharch. I got 500 from them, top notch. I just got 1000pc of 308 brass off the falfiles for $100. keep an eye out on there, it pops up in the market place from time to time at a good price but goes quick.

jpwilly · June 17, 2009, 12:43 AM

Some companies run once fired brass through a maching that resizes, deprimes, and swages the primer pocket. Maybe this has already been done?

Thirdeye · June 17, 2009, 02:11 AM

These had fired primers in them. No gettin around it. They were more than once fired.

**Unclenick** · June 17, 2009, 01:50 PM

Jpwilliy,

The Tob Brass brand is fully processed (cleaned, sized, trimmed, primer pockets reamed), but it costs about $20 more per 1000 than Widener's does. To me, it's worth paying the price to have all that work done for me, but to each his own in that department.

Thirdeye,

Sound's like the Widener's is not once-fired military but just about any range pickups they can find with military headstamps. Sorry you got suckered by that. Best thing you can do is learn to anneal case necks and do that if you haven't already? It will extend the life of the multiply-used cases.

Thirdeye · June 17, 2009, 09:22 PM

Yep, annealing is next on my list of things to do.

SQUAREKNOT · June 17, 2009, 10:01 PM

I don't have a .308 but the last batch of once fired .40 S&W I got the same
thing. Half had silver primers and were showing no pressure signs.
The other half had brass/gold primers and they were all max loads.

adding-half were reloaded more than once.

Dimebag · June 17, 2009, 10:43 PM

Take some pictures and start cracking skulls! Reloading is a thing not to be lied about. Safety is what we are after and safety is what we need to expect, no "lines" on what is and what is not. Time to make a call to customer service, not a general email, and go to the supervisor.

TheNatureBoy · June 18, 2009, 07:00 AM

A few months ago I purchased some once fired brass [so I was told] from a Georgia Arms table at a gun show. Truth be told, half was once fired, the other half reloads and had been fired a few times. I have them in a bin with other 7mm rem mag brass that needs to be trimmed. Only cost me ten dollars for the bag so...... I would have appreciated the truth vs. the long disclaimer that turned out to be a lie. Business is Business I guess.

Wulfmann · June 20, 2009, 10:12 AM

Wideners is one of the best most honest to deal with groups in the country.

That does not mean they can't make a mistake.

However, if the primer pocket is swagged then that is an upgrade.

I have shot thousands of 308 and in bolt guns I have never worn out cases.
If I sent you ten times fired cases they would be fine in your gun and that semi will beat them up enough to shorten their life by 90-95% over a bolt gun.

Email Wideners and ask for Chris. he is a benchrest shooter and will know what you are referring to and will make an adjustment.

I would rather buy swagged multi fired than one time where I have to swag them myself. But, that is IMO

Wulfmann

bobotech · June 20, 2009, 11:09 AM

I just remembered something. Are any of these LC brass "match" brass? If they are, that could explain the issue. As far as I know, match brass is NOT crimped so you would not have to swage the pockets at all.

Just something to think about if they are match brass.

Thirdeye · June 20, 2009, 11:31 AM

Wulfman,

My problem with the whole thing is the false advertising. It's sort of insulting to me that they wont just come out and say, "Yeah, you're probably right. Sometimes this stuff comes in and it's not once fired, but we do the best we can to get once fired brass. If you're not satisfied, feel free to return it for REAL once fired brass".

I'm sort of a control freak when it comes to stuff like this. I want to be the one to swage the primer pocket. I want to be the one to de-burr the flash hole. I want to be the one to uniform the neck walls. I want to be the one to anneal.

That's all. They've already offered to give me a refund. What they haven't done is admitted that this stuff is really not once fired. I don't want a refund, I just want to be treated with respect. But I guess that's too much to ask for sometimes.

Bobotech,

This is not match brass. LC match brass says "match" on the case. This brass that I have, had a crimp at one time. The match stuff never has a crimp because it's designated for use out of sniper rifles.

The military is very strict about not letting ammo get mixed up. This tells me that Wideners didnt get this directly from the military but from a secondary source.

Shoney · June 20, 2009, 01:28 PM

Thirdeye:

Wideners is a well known honest and reputable company and your accusation is a little out of sequence. Your first step should have been calling an/or writing Wideners for an answer. If their answer was not satisfactory, or if they will not adjust the problem, then you should come to the forum.

Thirdeye · June 20, 2009, 03:16 PM

Shoney,

Did you read my post? I sent several emails to them about it. They denied my claims. The DID offer to give me a refund, but that was it. I dont want a refund. I would rather be lied to and have twice fired brass than no brass.

My goal in making this post was not to run a smear campaign but rather find out if anyone else has had the same experience with this brass. If so, they need to be called out on it.

SQUAREKNOT · June 21, 2009, 12:55 AM

Thirdeye, I may complain about Wideners but they have always been more than fair and honest with me. I always look there first if I need something.

June 16, 2009, 09:53 PM	#1
Thirdeye Member Join Date: June 16, 2009 Posts: 17	Wideners "Once Fired" Lake City 7.62X51 brass Hi everyone. I didn't see an "introduce yourself" forum, so I guess I will do it here. New to the site, not new to shooting, reloading, or EBRs. Right now I'm mostly into precision shooting with my DPMS LR 308, A3 upper, 24" fluted bbl. I'm currently in the process of finding that "perfect load" for her. She's showing quite a bit of promise with what I've run thus far. All she eats are handloads. I figure that's the least I could do for her. I'm still running the factory trigger though I've done some stone-work to the sear and disconnecter. Haven't started tweaking the travel yet but soon will. If that doesn't satisfy me, I will start looking for an after market match trigger for her. So, now for my question: I just received 500 pieces of Wideners "Once Fired" Lake City 7.62X51 brass. They claim on their website that the stuff is once fired military brass. After processing them, I am finding that almost every single one seems to have been reloaded before. A few things are telling me this. 1. The primer crimp has already been swedged out. 2. You can see on the necks where they have been run through a neck sizing die. 3. Some of the case heads have permanent marker markings on them. I'm wondering if anyone else has bought some of these and had the same experience? I sent Wideners an email and they claim to not have a clue what Im talking about. I tried to take pics but I cant the the focus good enough to show what I'm talking about. I'm not ready to make accusations yet, I'm still researching the problem. Here's the link to the stuff I bought. http://www.wideners.com/itemdetail.c...78\|282\|291\|390

June 17, 2009, 12:43 AM	#4
jpwilly Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2007 Location: Phoenix, Arizona Posts: 539	Some companies run once fired brass through a maching that resizes, deprimes, and swages the primer pocket. Maybe this has already been done? __________________ "Rats & roaches live by competition under the laws of supply and demand; it is the privilege of human beings to live under the laws of justice & mercy." - Wendell Berry

June 17, 2009, 01:50 PM	#6
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	Jpwilliy, The Tob Brass brand is fully processed (cleaned, sized, trimmed, primer pockets reamed), but it costs about $20 more per 1000 than Widener's does. To me, it's worth paying the price to have all that work done for me, but to each his own in that department. Thirdeye, Sound's like the Widener's is not once-fired military but just about any range pickups they can find with military headstamps. Sorry you got suckered by that. Best thing you can do is learn to anneal case necks and do that if you haven't already? It will extend the life of the multiply-used cases. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle Last edited by Unclenick; June 17, 2009 at 02:34 PM.

June 17, 2009, 10:01 PM	#8
SQUAREKNOT Senior Member Join Date: July 16, 2008 Posts: 263	I don't have a .308 but the last batch of once fired .40 S&W I got the same thing. Half had silver primers and were showing no pressure signs. The other half had brass/gold primers and they were all max loads. adding-half were reloaded more than once. Last edited by SQUAREKNOT; June 17, 2009 at 10:03 PM. Reason: adding

June 17, 2009, 10:43 PM	#9
Dimebag Member Join Date: May 12, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 21	Take some pictures and start cracking skulls! Reloading is a thing not to be lied about. Safety is what we are after and safety is what we need to expect, no "lines" on what is and what is not. Time to make a call to customer service, not a general email, and go to the supervisor. __________________ They call me... Dr. Love!

June 16, 2009, 10:05 PM	#2
csmsss Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Orange, TX Posts: 3,078	Dunno about what Widener's sent you, but the .308 brass I got from Scharch several months back was absolutely terrific. Next time you order some milsurp brass, you might want to check them out - http://www.scharch.com/products.php?cat=10) Though they tell you to expect different headstamps, each one I've looked at in my shipment was Lake City.

June 16, 2009, 10:40 PM	#3
eganx Junior Member Join Date: November 8, 2008 Posts: 11	I'll second Scharch. I got 500 from them, top notch. I just got 1000pc of 308 brass off the falfiles for $100. keep an eye out on there, it pops up in the market place from time to time at a good price but goes quick.

June 17, 2009, 02:11 AM	#5
Thirdeye Member Join Date: June 16, 2009 Posts: 17	These had fired primers in them. No gettin around it. They were more than once fired.

June 17, 2009, 09:22 PM	#7
Thirdeye Member Join Date: June 16, 2009 Posts: 17	Yep, annealing is next on my list of things to do.

June 18, 2009, 07:00 AM	#10
TheNatureBoy Senior Member Join Date: September 6, 2007 Posts: 1,204	A few months ago I purchased some once fired brass [so I was told] from a Georgia Arms table at a gun show. Truth be told, half was once fired, the other half reloads and had been fired a few times. I have them in a bin with other 7mm rem mag brass that needs to be trimmed. Only cost me ten dollars for the bag so...... I would have appreciated the truth vs. the long disclaimer that turned out to be a lie. Business is Business I guess.

June 20, 2009, 10:12 AM	#11
Wulfmann Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Central Florida Posts: 188	Wideners is one of the best most honest to deal with groups in the country. That does not mean they can't make a mistake. However, if the primer pocket is swagged then that is an upgrade. I have shot thousands of 308 and in bolt guns I have never worn out cases. If I sent you ten times fired cases they would be fine in your gun and that semi will beat them up enough to shorten their life by 90-95% over a bolt gun. Email Wideners and ask for Chris. he is a benchrest shooter and will know what you are referring to and will make an adjustment. I would rather buy swagged multi fired than one time where I have to swag them myself. But, that is IMO Wulfmann __________________ "The right to bear arms should not be infringed upon if only to prevent tyranny in government". Thomas Jefferson, Constitutional debates

June 20, 2009, 11:09 AM	#12
bobotech Member Join Date: February 22, 2008 Posts: 60	I just remembered something. Are any of these LC brass "match" brass? If they are, that could explain the issue. As far as I know, match brass is NOT crimped so you would not have to swage the pockets at all. Just something to think about if they are match brass.

June 20, 2009, 11:31 AM	#13
Thirdeye Member Join Date: June 16, 2009 Posts: 17	Wulfman, My problem with the whole thing is the false advertising. It's sort of insulting to me that they wont just come out and say, "Yeah, you're probably right. Sometimes this stuff comes in and it's not once fired, but we do the best we can to get once fired brass. If you're not satisfied, feel free to return it for REAL once fired brass". I'm sort of a control freak when it comes to stuff like this. I want to be the one to swage the primer pocket. I want to be the one to de-burr the flash hole. I want to be the one to uniform the neck walls. I want to be the one to anneal. That's all. They've already offered to give me a refund. What they haven't done is admitted that this stuff is really not once fired. I don't want a refund, I just want to be treated with respect. But I guess that's too much to ask for sometimes. Bobotech, This is not match brass. LC match brass says "match" on the case. This brass that I have, had a crimp at one time. The match stuff never has a crimp because it's designated for use out of sniper rifles. The military is very strict about not letting ammo get mixed up. This tells me that Wideners didnt get this directly from the military but from a secondary source.

June 20, 2009, 01:28 PM	#14
Shoney Senior Member Join Date: February 21, 2002 Location: Transplanted from Montana Posts: 2,311	Thirdeye: Wideners is a well known honest and reputable company and your accusation is a little out of sequence. Your first step should have been calling an/or writing Wideners for an answer. If their answer was not satisfactory, or if they will not adjust the problem, then you should come to the forum. __________________ I pledge allegiance to the Flag - - -, and to the Republic for which it stands….Our Forefathers were brilliant for giving us a Republic, not a democracy! Do you know the difference??? and WHY?http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissue...les.asp?id=111

June 20, 2009, 03:16 PM	#15
Thirdeye Member Join Date: June 16, 2009 Posts: 17	Shoney, Did you read my post? I sent several emails to them about it. They denied my claims. The DID offer to give me a refund, but that was it. I dont want a refund. I would rather be lied to and have twice fired brass than no brass. My goal in making this post was not to run a smear campaign but rather find out if anyone else has had the same experience with this brass. If so, they need to be called out on it.

June 21, 2009, 12:55 AM	#16
SQUAREKNOT Senior Member Join Date: July 16, 2008 Posts: 263	Thirdeye, I may complain about Wideners but they have always been more than fair and honest with me. I always look there first if I need something.