How many shots is enough - Page 8

BuckRub · January 6, 2014, 12:49 AM

How many bullets ? I've always been told until the attacker quits moving

101combatvet · January 6, 2014, 01:36 AM

Depends on what you are up against.

KyJim · January 6, 2014, 09:36 AM

I consider concealed carry a compromise on size, weight, capacity, and caliber. If I had my druthers, I would carry a sawed off shotgun but that is obviously impractical. Instead, I carry a handgun and that gun may vary depending on needs. So too does the amount of ammo I carry.

Because I am carrying concealed and am mostly in very low risk situations (e.g., driving to work), I most often carry a handgun with 5 to 8 rounds in it, depending upon the gun. Every once in a while I'll carry an extra mag. I rarely carry extra rounds for a revolver. Sure, it's a compromise but it's a realistic one.

If I'm going to be in an area which I consider unsafe, I'll add additional rounds or, more likely, a second gun.

mavracer · January 6, 2014, 11:40 AM

X where X= #of rounds expended + # of rounds gun holds.

Dusty Rivers · January 6, 2014, 02:55 PM

I figured that the capacity of my medium sized auto was probably going to be enough. it is usually 7 or 8 rounds depending if i have the .40 or the 45ACP.

Then through much reading of gun boards I came to the conclusion that with an auto the most likely failure was with the magazine. I can now see the logic of carrying an extra mag not just for the extra capacity, but for the ability to clear a jam in a quick fashion by tap roll rack,-drop mag, insert backup if necessary, rack -bang bang

One other thing i have picked up on revolvers. When you load the cylinder, check each round for a high primer head, or a funky primer. it is a real easy check that adds to reliability. Heck I do this when loading mags now.

My goal is to shoot the first BG, then use their ammo. Mine is too expensive to waste on BG's.

PS situational awareness- it could be a bad gal as well

Panfisher · January 6, 2014, 03:12 PM

Correct amount would be "Whatever it takes to get the job done, plus 1 just in case".

zombietactics · January 6, 2014, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KyJim

"... If I'm going to be in an area which I consider unsafe, I'll add additional rounds or, more likely, a second gun. ..."

Assumes that only "unsafe" areas are of concern. Crime happens everywhere.

If you check the statistics for my town, I live in one of the lowest crime areas in the world. Yet, there have been 9 home break-ins during the past 4 years on my block alone. There is no way to get access to that statistic through public sources without considerable effort.

How do you propose to know what is an unsafe area and what is not? Is it not simply more prudent to be as well prepared as you reasonably can at all time and places?

mordis · January 6, 2014, 07:23 PM

So, Glen, does that mean that, those of us who prefere 5, or six shot revolvers with a reload or 2 are fools? I cut my teeth on a M15, which I have the most practice on.

So based on the words of the Heavy hitters in this thread, should I just run out, by the biggest HI cap I can get just because I might need 20+ shots to defend my self?

So revolvers are now just historical oddities, with no place for self defense in to days hyper dangerous world.

Why DOES IT MATTER.. The only thing that should matter is which one your most comfortable with, that your the most accurate with.

KyJim · January 6, 2014, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Assumes that only "unsafe" areas are of concern. Crime happens everywhere.

Never said otherwise. It's all percentages and compromises. Like I said, I would rather carry a shotgun but I compromise.

BuckRub · January 6, 2014, 10:15 PM

You never know. All areas are " Safe " until the SHTF !

**JohnKSa** · January 6, 2014, 11:01 PM

Quote:

I've always been told until the attacker quits moving.

Until he breaks off the attack.

BuckRub · January 6, 2014, 11:57 PM

JohnKSa
Staff

I've always been told until the attacker quits moving.
Until he breaks off the attack

Ah Yea , that's what I meant.

__________________
Did you know that there is a TEXAS State Rifle Association?

armsmaster270 · January 7, 2014, 12:36 AM

Placed properly one round should do it but be prepared for more.

Federal Treasury Load 110gr +P+ 38 spl JHP out of a 4" S&W Mod 15

Glenn E. Meyer · January 7, 2014, 11:44 AM

I think I said, Mordis, one reload for a semi and one for a revolver is a reasonable carry load given the probabilities.

My analysis is based on folks who chortle that if you can't do it in 5, YOU AIN'T DOING YOUR JOB, or the folks who think that average is always what happens. You only need 2 shots according to the average.

I've argued that you need to have enough for a reasonable cutoff in the intensity tail of critical incidents. My view of the cut is that just 5 isn't enough but a 10 (5 + reload for J frame) or a standard semi with an extra mag (you can put in five if you like) is a reasonable risk/cut off point.

A model 15 and 6 more would be OK with me - as if I am the divine Judge of carry loads.

One reason for a full reload is that if the gun goes bad - a bad mag or jam that needs you rip out the mag or a revolver screw up (rounds under the star) - you may end up dumping the rounds in the gun. Then a reload from a speed loader or new mag gets you back in the game.

Speaking of games, that happened to me this past weekend in a match. My rifle decided to hiccup. I needed to pull the mag to get the round out. Who knew at that time how many I had left. So I pulled it out, ditched it and put in a new one. Fastest way to get back in action and full capacity.

Madcap_Magician · January 8, 2014, 12:51 PM

The answer is No One Knows.

You cannot know the answer to this question without knowing the circumstances of the defensive shooting, and if you knew that ahead of time, you would just not be at that place at that time.

BuckRub · January 8, 2014, 01:23 PM

^ AMEN

Brit · January 11, 2014, 04:57 PM

The only common sense way to look at rounds carried, available, is based on what has happened in the past, history if you would. And what you can carry with your normal mode of dress, each one of us.

So, have you had, with in say a 50 mile radius, a home invasion, with multiple criminals? It could happen to you.

You need a Law Enforcement caliber, .38spl, 9mm, .40S&W, .45ACP. And a LE capacity. Why not?

At 78 YOA, I can dress anyway I want, and do. So I dress armed. Glock 19Gen4, 16 round capacity, spare 17 round magazine, Surefire flashlight, Benchmade folder.

I personally like accuracy, so the 147g Ranger T, by Winchester is my pick.
Non PlusP. Night sights are a must, TruGlo fiber optic, extended slide release, factory. Trigger, clean, crisp, 4lb.

The base plug to help in rapid reloads.

Shoot IDPA matches, good practice. Always carry.

Xfire68 · January 11, 2014, 07:34 PM

^^^^^What he said!^^^^^

RangerHAAF · January 13, 2014, 12:17 AM

Two in the chest and two in the head in a stand your ground situation. Most semi-auto pistols hold at least 15 rounds per magazine.

MikeNice81 · January 14, 2014, 02:40 PM

I remember reading a story a few years ago about a highly ranked competitive shooter. His jewelry store was robbed. He emptied his revolver and failed to hit anybody. Two in the chest and one in the head is great on the range but seriously hard or almost impossible in real life.

Then you have stories like Officer Peter Soulis's. He put 22 rounds in to a bad guy. The bad guy still took some time to die. 17 of the 22 shots were center mass.

I choose not to count on five rounds. When the shtf you never know how well you will perform or how "game" the bad guy is. My standard carry is a Glock 26 with +2 mag extension and a back up mag. I load out with 25 rounds. I don't expect to need a reload. The extra mag is mainly there in case I have a malfunction. However, it is nice to know I have it if I need it.

B.N.Real · January 22, 2014, 01:21 AM

Five shot revolver but you got to hit with every shot-not hard at the distance I will likely have to shoot at by the time I get the gun out.

Remember, more then one guy means you have to hit every shot which means you have to practice with the gun at a range.

Tactical Jackalope · January 22, 2014, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Remember, more then one guy means you have to hit every shot which means you have to practice with the gun at a range.

The "gun range" isn't training. It's safe and soundly shooting at a piece of paper.

The Rattler · January 22, 2014, 09:35 AM

I carry a S&W 642 5 round revolver. One disadvantage of a carry revolver is fewer loaded rounds than most semi autos. I don't want to have a debate on whether semi autos or revolvers are the better carry weapon. I have decided that a revolver is what I will carry.

Statistics say the odds are high that 5 rounds are enough. Nevertheless, there is a risk that you will need more than 5 rounds given all of the potentential variables: e.g., number of bad guys, how accurate you are under stress, etc. For this reason I carry a 5 round safari speed loader, and 2, 5 round Tuff quick strips, for a total of 20 rounds. I don't find them uncomfortable at all. My slacks & suit pants are rather baggy: one of the very few advantages of being a big man.

I realize 15 extra rounds are not near as good as more than 5 loaded rounds. It is most important, however, to regularly practice reloading your weapon and drawing and shooting it in a self defense mode. Hopefully you will "default" to your training when under stress.

Just one person's opinion.

trapper9260 · January 22, 2014, 02:06 PM

I have read through this all and the way i see it is that no one really knows like many have stated because every thing is different for what ever happened . I carry 2 extra mags because i feel better that way because you have too many things that could happened.I know it is best to know your gun first then go from there and when under fire no one will know how the other will be .what ever fit for how ones feel go with that.

Ruger45LC · January 22, 2014, 02:55 PM

One thing that seems to be a theme common among shootings is that it's far easier to miss than many think. Generally the events happen very quick, so it's not like you're at the range punching holes in paper.

A guy over on ARFcom was in an incident where he was in a bit of a firefight with a felon carrying a 5 shot 38 Special. He was carrying DW 1911 and he took the brunt of the damage, managing to hit the BG once, missing several shots within a few feet.

You can listen to it here
http://ballisticradio.com/2013/11/18...ember-17-2013/

And you can read the thread here (with pics)
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/988015_.html

Here's another of a LEO who was in a shootout too
http://ballisticradio.com/2013/12/01...cember-1-2013/

Wold I only want a 5 shot snubbie? No. I carried one for a while, but the thing is, you never know what you're going to come against. One guy? Or multiple guys? Then read this to see who you're likely up against, it's pretty good stuff:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1285487_.html

I prefer a higher capacity Glock, but even if I'm pocket carrying, I use something that's quick to reload (In my case a Kahr) and carry a spare mag or two on me at all times that way I have at least a dozen rounds.

January 6, 2014, 01:36 AM	#177
101combatvet Senior Member Join Date: January 25, 2011 Posts: 667	Depends on what you are up against. __________________ Special Operations Combat Veteran Gunsmith, BS, MFA, Competitive Shooter NRA Certified Firearms Instructor [9 Certifications]

January 6, 2014, 02:55 PM	#180
Dusty Rivers Senior Member Join Date: February 27, 2008 Posts: 235	changed my mind I figured that the capacity of my medium sized auto was probably going to be enough. it is usually 7 or 8 rounds depending if i have the .40 or the 45ACP. Then through much reading of gun boards I came to the conclusion that with an auto the most likely failure was with the magazine. I can now see the logic of carrying an extra mag not just for the extra capacity, but for the ability to clear a jam in a quick fashion by tap roll rack,-drop mag, insert backup if necessary, rack -bang bang One other thing i have picked up on revolvers. When you load the cylinder, check each round for a high primer head, or a funky primer. it is a real easy check that adds to reliability. Heck I do this when loading mags now. My goal is to shoot the first BG, then use their ammo. Mine is too expensive to waste on BG's. PS situational awareness- it could be a bad gal as well __________________ Dusty: I'm kind of a big deal! Rob Pincus follower PDN NRA Lifetime Member, our only voice!

January 7, 2014, 12:36 AM	#188
armsmaster270 Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2008 Location: California Posts: 1,951	Placed properly one round should do it but be prepared for more. Federal Treasury Load 110gr +P+ 38 spl JHP out of a 4" S&W Mod 15 __________________ http://www.armsmaster.net-a.googlepages.com http://s239.photobucket.com/albums/f...aster270/Guns/ Retired LE, M.P., Sr. M.P. Investigator F.B.I. Trained Rangemaster/Firearms Instructor & Armorer, Presently Forensic Document Examiner for D.H.S.

January 7, 2014, 11:44 AM	#189
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	I think I said, Mordis, one reload for a semi and one for a revolver is a reasonable carry load given the probabilities. My analysis is based on folks who chortle that if you can't do it in 5, YOU AIN'T DOING YOUR JOB, or the folks who think that average is always what happens. You only need 2 shots according to the average. I've argued that you need to have enough for a reasonable cutoff in the intensity tail of critical incidents. My view of the cut is that just 5 isn't enough but a 10 (5 + reload for J frame) or a standard semi with an extra mag (you can put in five if you like) is a reasonable risk/cut off point. A model 15 and 6 more would be OK with me - as if I am the divine Judge of carry loads. One reason for a full reload is that if the gun goes bad - a bad mag or jam that needs you rip out the mag or a revolver screw up (rounds under the star) - you may end up dumping the rounds in the gun. Then a reload from a speed loader or new mag gets you back in the game. Speaking of games, that happened to me this past weekend in a match. My rifle decided to hiccup. I needed to pull the mag to get the round out. Who knew at that time how many I had left. So I pulled it out, ditched it and put in a new one. Fastest way to get back in action and full capacity. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

January 11, 2014, 07:34 PM	#193
Xfire68 Senior Member Join Date: March 31, 2010 Location: Communist State of IL. Posts: 1,562	^^^^^What he said!^^^^^ __________________ NRA Life Member, SAF Member

January 6, 2014, 12:49 AM	#176
BuckRub Junior member Join Date: October 3, 2012 Location: Central Texas Posts: 1,046	How many bullets ? I've always been told until the attacker quits moving

January 6, 2014, 09:36 AM	#178
KyJim Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2005 Location: The Bluegrass Posts: 9,142	I consider concealed carry a compromise on size, weight, capacity, and caliber. If I had my druthers, I would carry a sawed off shotgun but that is obviously impractical. Instead, I carry a handgun and that gun may vary depending on needs. So too does the amount of ammo I carry. Because I am carrying concealed and am mostly in very low risk situations (e.g., driving to work), I most often carry a handgun with 5 to 8 rounds in it, depending upon the gun. Every once in a while I'll carry an extra mag. I rarely carry extra rounds for a revolver. Sure, it's a compromise but it's a realistic one. If I'm going to be in an area which I consider unsafe, I'll add additional rounds or, more likely, a second gun.

January 6, 2014, 03:12 PM	#181
Panfisher Senior Member Join Date: July 30, 2010 Location: Missouri Posts: 1,337	Correct amount would be "Whatever it takes to get the job done, plus 1 just in case".

January 6, 2014, 07:23 PM	#183
mordis Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2005 Location: NE Indiana Posts: 560	So, Glen, does that mean that, those of us who prefere 5, or six shot revolvers with a reload or 2 are fools? I cut my teeth on a M15, which I have the most practice on. So based on the words of the Heavy hitters in this thread, should I just run out, by the biggest HI cap I can get just because I might need 20+ shots to defend my self? So revolvers are now just historical oddities, with no place for self defense in to days hyper dangerous world. Why DOES IT MATTER.. The only thing that should matter is which one your most comfortable with, that your the most accurate with.

January 6, 2014, 10:15 PM	#185
BuckRub Junior member Join Date: October 3, 2012 Location: Central Texas Posts: 1,046	You never know. All areas are " Safe " until the SHTF !

January 6, 2014, 11:57 PM	#187
BuckRub Junior member Join Date: October 3, 2012 Location: Central Texas Posts: 1,046	JohnKSa Staff I've always been told until the attacker quits moving. Until he breaks off the attack Ah Yea , that's what I meant. __________________ Did you know that there is a TEXAS State Rifle Association?

January 8, 2014, 12:51 PM	#190
Madcap_Magician Senior Member Join Date: August 13, 2009 Location: MN Posts: 668	The answer is No One Knows. You cannot know the answer to this question without knowing the circumstances of the defensive shooting, and if you knew that ahead of time, you would just not be at that place at that time.

January 8, 2014, 01:23 PM	#191
BuckRub Junior member Join Date: October 3, 2012 Location: Central Texas Posts: 1,046	^ AMEN

January 11, 2014, 04:57 PM	#192
Brit Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2005 Location: Orlando FL Posts: 1,934	The only common sense way to look at rounds carried, available, is based on what has happened in the past, history if you would. And what you can carry with your normal mode of dress, each one of us. So, have you had, with in say a 50 mile radius, a home invasion, with multiple criminals? It could happen to you. You need a Law Enforcement caliber, .38spl, 9mm, .40S&W, .45ACP. And a LE capacity. Why not? At 78 YOA, I can dress anyway I want, and do. So I dress armed. Glock 19Gen4, 16 round capacity, spare 17 round magazine, Surefire flashlight, Benchmade folder. I personally like accuracy, so the 147g Ranger T, by Winchester is my pick. Non PlusP. Night sights are a must, TruGlo fiber optic, extended slide release, factory. Trigger, clean, crisp, 4lb. The base plug to help in rapid reloads. Shoot IDPA matches, good practice. Always carry.

January 13, 2014, 12:17 AM	#194
RangerHAAF Senior Member Join Date: June 10, 2007 Location: Decatur, GA Posts: 269	Two in the chest and two in the head in a stand your ground situation. Most semi-auto pistols hold at least 15 rounds per magazine. __________________ A Colt Python's trigger pull is as smooth, beautiful and artistic as a Sidewinder sliding on the desert floor. It is concepts like this that the anti-gunners can never comprehend and why we fight so hard to keep them. NRA Benefactor Life member

January 14, 2014, 02:40 PM	#195
MikeNice81 Senior Member Join Date: August 17, 2010 Posts: 579	I remember reading a story a few years ago about a highly ranked competitive shooter. His jewelry store was robbed. He emptied his revolver and failed to hit anybody. Two in the chest and one in the head is great on the range but seriously hard or almost impossible in real life. Then you have stories like Officer Peter Soulis's. He put 22 rounds in to a bad guy. The bad guy still took some time to die. 17 of the 22 shots were center mass. I choose not to count on five rounds. When the shtf you never know how well you will perform or how "game" the bad guy is. My standard carry is a Glock 26 with +2 mag extension and a back up mag. I load out with 25 rounds. I don't expect to need a reload. The extra mag is mainly there in case I have a malfunction. However, it is nice to know I have it if I need it. __________________ Here's my credo: There are no good guns, There are no bad guns. A gun in the hands of a bad man is a bad thing. Any gun in the hands of a good man is no threat to anyone, except bad people. Charlton Heston

January 22, 2014, 01:21 AM	#196
B.N.Real Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2008 Posts: 4,092	Five shot revolver but you got to hit with every shot-not hard at the distance I will likely have to shoot at by the time I get the gun out. Remember, more then one guy means you have to hit every shot which means you have to practice with the gun at a range.

January 22, 2014, 09:35 AM	#198
The Rattler Senior Member Join Date: August 14, 2013 Posts: 111	Number of Carry Rounds I carry a S&W 642 5 round revolver. One disadvantage of a carry revolver is fewer loaded rounds than most semi autos. I don't want to have a debate on whether semi autos or revolvers are the better carry weapon. I have decided that a revolver is what I will carry. Statistics say the odds are high that 5 rounds are enough. Nevertheless, there is a risk that you will need more than 5 rounds given all of the potentential variables: e.g., number of bad guys, how accurate you are under stress, etc. For this reason I carry a 5 round safari speed loader, and 2, 5 round Tuff quick strips, for a total of 20 rounds. I don't find them uncomfortable at all. My slacks & suit pants are rather baggy: one of the very few advantages of being a big man. I realize 15 extra rounds are not near as good as more than 5 loaded rounds. It is most important, however, to regularly practice reloading your weapon and drawing and shooting it in a self defense mode. Hopefully you will "default" to your training when under stress. Just one person's opinion.

January 22, 2014, 02:06 PM	#199
trapper9260 Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 2010 Location: Iowa Posts: 119	I have read through this all and the way i see it is that no one really knows like many have stated because every thing is different for what ever happened . I carry 2 extra mags because i feel better that way because you have too many things that could happened.I know it is best to know your gun first then go from there and when under fire no one will know how the other will be .what ever fit for how ones feel go with that.

January 22, 2014, 02:55 PM	#200
Ruger45LC Senior Member Join Date: July 24, 2005 Location: Kentucky Posts: 768	One thing that seems to be a theme common among shootings is that it's far easier to miss than many think. Generally the events happen very quick, so it's not like you're at the range punching holes in paper. A guy over on ARFcom was in an incident where he was in a bit of a firefight with a felon carrying a 5 shot 38 Special. He was carrying DW 1911 and he took the brunt of the damage, managing to hit the BG once, missing several shots within a few feet. You can listen to it here http://ballisticradio.com/2013/11/18...ember-17-2013/ And you can read the thread here (with pics) http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/988015_.html Here's another of a LEO who was in a shootout too http://ballisticradio.com/2013/12/01...cember-1-2013/ Wold I only want a 5 shot snubbie? No. I carried one for a while, but the thing is, you never know what you're going to come against. One guy? Or multiple guys? Then read this to see who you're likely up against, it's pretty good stuff: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1285487_.html I prefer a higher capacity Glock, but even if I'm pocket carrying, I use something that's quick to reload (In my case a Kahr) and carry a spare mag or two on me at all times that way I have at least a dozen rounds.