45colt/454casull

[Jeff2131]

Not sure if im over thing or if there is a different that i need to be aware of. I just purchased a ruger super redhawk, my first revolver. Im looking in my lyman reloading book and seeing two different bullet diameters for each caliber, yet both are shot from this gun and i was told that the casull is simply just a longer 45colt with a different primer. So i bought a box(500) of 45colt lead cast gas checked bullets. They have a "cut in" above the gas check...im assuming this is similar to a.cannelure on a jacketed bullet, am i correct. This is the first time im reloading lead cast bullets. So my questions are...

1. Is it ok to use these 250gr lead cast 45colt bullets to reload my casull cases?
2. Do i seat to that "cut in" and use the factory taper crimp die to crimp the case into that lip?
3. And using 28.5-29.0grs of IMR4227 and a small rifle primer, will that be a light enough charge to avoid leading and breaking the bullet apart when fired?

***if it means anything to any of you, the lead cast bullets are marked with a brindle hardness of 21

[TMD]

You can shoot the cast bullets in the .454 cases without issue but if loaded to max you may get some leading. As for the difference in bullet diameter. Hornady makes .452 diameter bullets specifically to withstand the pressures and velocities of the .454 and the .460 mag which can reach over 60k.

[Jeff2131]

Ok, these are actually sized to .452 so i.should be good then. And seating and crimping them to that groove is correct?

[Jeff2131]

28.5 was the minimum charge for that bullet. So i started with that.

[Jeff2131]

http://s911.photobucket.com/user/jef...i0zxo.jpg.html

[Unclenick]

The crimp groove being use is illustrated below in an image I took from one of my own earlier images. The two larger grooves on the bullet are lubrication grooves to hold the lubricant.



The .45 Colt once was 0.454" groove diameter. This was changed to 0.451" by Colt in 1956, and there has since been a transition as some still have the old guns and some are new. The SAAMI specs have a bullet maximum diameter of 0.456, but the chamber throat in the standard test barrel is 0.452" while the groove diameter is 0.450". Despite that example, many production revolvers seem to be made to accommodate bullet diameters of 0.455", to give clearance to a 0.454" bullet, while the groove diameters seem to be either 0.450" or 0.451". When the wider bullets are used, they are squeezed down in the forcing cone of the barrel to fit the narrower groove diameters. Sizing a bullet down a few thousandths is generally something any gun can withstand, even with jacketed bullets.

The problem that comes up is the loose throats. This article's author is convinced it is what is responsible for the .45 Colt having a less than stellar accuracy reputation, particularly as compared to the .44 Special, which does enjoy a stellar accuracy reputation. That would seem to be confirmed in the bullet casting community where, despite narrowing by the forcing cone, most shooters report best accuracy from bullets that are sized between about half a thousandth smaller up to equal to the throat diameters. Also, as alway with revolvers, it is important to have the throats of all cylinder equal in diameter.

The theory behind the above is that a loose throat lets gas cut lead off of bullet bases, so they tend to exit the muzzle with asymmetrical muzzle blast pressure pushing the bullet slightly sideways in addition to pushing it out. A gas check should mitigate that problem. A loose fit may also allow bullet tilt, though with handgun bullet shapes that isn't nearly the problem it is for long pointed rifle bullet shapes. Another factor is how well the bullet lines up with the forcing cone. Straighter is better, but a loose fit means you are always a little off-center in how the cartridge lies, so you are then dependent on that repeating exactly with ever round.

If you want to maximize accuracy, slug the chamber throats to learn their sizes. If they are not all the same, get a gunsmith or the factory to ream them to maximum. Get a 0.454" mold and size the bullets to the size of the throat to half a thousandth under the size of the throats, or buy from Beartooth Bullets or someone else who sizes to order.

You can further improve centering of the cartridge in the chamber using the new Redding dual ring sizing dies, but that's not a minor investment. You'll want to be sure it doesn't shoot satisfactorily before going to the expense of any gunsmithing or special dies. It might turn out to do just fine with the right bullet size, and you should also try .453" on the way to finding that.

[Pond, James Pond]

I am no expert in reloading but I can say with certainty, yes crimp in that cannelure groove.

As for the minimum load you mentioned. Is that a minimum charge for that bullet in a .45 Colt load or a .454 Casull load?

My understanding is you don't want to use the minimum load for a recipe using the shorter .45 Colt brass in a .454 Casull cartridge. I believe you risk pressures that are too low.

[Jeff2131]

Ok, so.judging by that picture, ive seated and crimped correctly. Is it wrong to assume that all my cylinder throats are even because the gun is brand spanking new? Or does ruger not have a good reputation for evenly machined cylinders? Also, this is my very first revolver so forgive me for not knowing all the lingo....when you say forcing cone, are you referring to the beginning of the barrel right where the bullet enters?

[Jeff2131]

Its minimum load for .454 casull. There is no load data for 250gr. Lead cast bullet so i used the jacketed HP data.

[Wreck-n-Crew]

Congrats on the Redhawk. I have a 45LC/45acp Blackhawk convertible SA on my short list. They are some tough guns, beefy.

You can back off on those loads a little if you want. It's a revolver after all. Let us know how she shoots!

[Jeff2131]

Ive already put the factory 360gr 454's through it with great results! Im now reloading to head back this wednesday to shoot some more. My gun club has an indoor pistol range and they only allow lead and plated ammo inside so thats why im venturing into cast lead.bullets now. At first i thought it would be pretty much the same but the more i read the more i find that theres alot of different things i need to know. Its somewhat confusing too..lol. so now i need to know what the dangers of "leading" are. And would i be correct in assuming that since my bullets are gaschecked and lubed that im good to go? You can find a pic of the bullets im using above. Also, i read as a general rule of thumb that when using jacketed data for lead, that its common practice to start 5% lower than the starting load. And it seems i need to do a.bit of research on the names of the different parts and areas of the revolver.

Hahaha, ya think youve got it all down pat until you but a new TYPE of gun....bam...back to being green!

[Jeff2131]

Ok, so im still learning....apparently that "blue ring" around the bullet is lube not a gas check. Being a mechanic, my thought process was...its like a seal of some sort and keeps the gas behind the bullet. So a gas ccheck is a copper "cap" thats crimped onto the bottom of the bullet. My bullets are lubed but not gas checked. Do i need to be concerned with lead fowling? Or if i clean regularly i shouldnt have an issues...

[Wreck-n-Crew]

Do i need to be concerned with lead fowling? Or if i clean regularly i shouldnt have an issues...

Yes you can lead that barrel and Fast, High pressure rounds like the 454 Casull are more likely.

Yet people with 44 magnums reload cast all the time with little to no leading. Might want to wait on someone with more experience with High pressure rounds and cast bullets to chime in.

Do have some questions. Who made the bullet? What is the hardness or BHN?
I can say that you can download them to 45 Colt levels and check leading as you increase load, working your way up to check for leading.

What I can tell you is that a hard bullet with too light a load will likely cause leading quicker than a full load with a soft bullet. The bullet needs to Obturate and if it doesn't then the hot gases from the burn will blow by the bullet and cause leading.

Have you ever heard of coated bullets? They don't lead and you can drive them. Maybe grab you some coated bullets from Bayou Bullets, Missouri Bullet company or SNS Casting. No smoke either.

[TimSr]

Do have some questions. Who made the bullet? What is the hardness or BHN?
I can say that you can download them to 45 Colt levels and check leading as you increase load, working your way up to check for leading.

I agree Absolutely!





I would never start any cast bullet at even minimum Casull loads, unless you have used them before, and they are a reputable company that you know adheres to tight specs, and consistancy. You didn't mention who makes the bullets, or what hardnes they are. These things are major!

Bullets swell from the pressure behind them as if you whack the base of them with a hammer. Matching the hardness of the cast to the pressure behind it is extremely important. You want the bullet to swell enough for a good fit, but no more. When you push soft lead at Casull pressures, results can be dangerous. Even jacketed .45 LC bullets should not be pushed to Casull specs. Casull rated jacketed bullets will have hardened lead in their cores. For example, Hornady XTP should are for 45LC. XTP-Mag is for Casull.

Commercially sold cast bullets today have a Brinell hardness rating. If you don't know thw hardness rating of your bullets, start at standard .45LC levels, and work up from there. If you know it has a Brinell rating of at least 18, you can start at 45LC "Ruger Only" levels and work up.

I traget shoot a lot of cast bullets in my .454 Casull, at minimum full Casull levels, but theer are a lot of variables in cast, and you have to be very careful that the ones you select are suitable for these super high presssure loads.

[Jeff2131]

I did mention the hardness in my OP. The brindle hardness says 21 on the box.
Betterbullets.com is who makes them. My gun shop is king shooter supply. The guy said that Lee actually uses these bullets for testing. They had coated bullets but i didnt buy them. Ive already loaded about 30 rounds of casull using the following:

Starline case once.fired
CCI small rifle primer
28.5 gr imr4227
250gr lead cast 45lc lubed no gascheck round.nose flat point

Am i ok to shoot these safely on wednesday from my super redhawk or do i need to scrap them. Im not going to fight the crimp on these.trying to pull them. I have 100 more new starline cases on the way. But if i can shoot them safely i will and just load the next batch at 45lc levels.

[TimSr]

Those will probably work out fine, but I would still start at 45LC "Ruger Only" levels, and work your way up. I haven't used IMR4227, but if its starting Casull load for a cast bullet, it will probably work out with those bullets. I just wouldn't start with that load. I'm not familiar with the bullet casting company's reputation, but noticed they are a "one hardness for everything" caster, which gives me enough caution to work up. You probably don't need to pull what you've loaded. Just save them as the test load for when you've worked up to that point.

I'm eager to hear of your results, as my last box from a supplier that went out of business is nearly gone, and I'll have to start over with a new bullet.

Here is some more information explaining bullet hardness from a supplier a lot of people here use for other calibers.


http://www.missouribullet.com/technical.php

[Jeff2131]

Well i guess ill chalk this one up in the mistake column. Guess i got a bit anxious to get these reloaded and.probably should have asked these questions BEFORE i loaded these rounds. As long as these arent going to cause me harm, ill shoot them, post my results, and take it from there. I have a bunch of.factory colt to.shoot also so at the very least ill be able to use these bullets for those if they fail at starting loads in the casull. And i guess ill have to do some searching for hardened lead bullets to load these casull cases.

Thanx for all in put and cautions. Ill shoot these rounds wednesday night and ill be sure to post my results the following day!

[TimSr]

Jeff, Maybe you misunderstood, but I think those will be plenty hard if they are truly brinell 21. That is a very hard cast. I'm just advising that you load some of those bullets at a 45LC maybe 22gr charge, shoot them, and check gun leading, grouping, and brass for any signs of problems, then load some more a little hotter like 24gr, and more a little hotter at 26 gr, and shoot and check for problems after each group before proceeding to the next hotter group. Then if everything is okay, try out your 28gr loads. Every new load should be worked up in increments, but with cast bullets and the variations between venders making the same bullet, its extra important to start lower on super high pressure loads.

[Jeff2131]

Yep, brinell hardness is 21. So is that considered to be a pretty hard lead or middle of the road or soft? Whats the scale range from and to?

[Unclenick]

That's pretty hard. 14-16 is more common for cast pistol.

Tim is correct. A rule of thumb that Western Powders has for pistols is to knock the maximum listed load down 15% and work up in steps of about 2% of maximum, while watching for pressure signs. In a revolver, in particular, if ejecting the cases becomes sticky anywhere near maximum, you are already past maximum for your gun and should back down 5%. It means the cylinder wall has stretched beyond the elastic limit of the brass and therefore clamped down on it when it returned to size. It's more stretch than you want the steel to see over the long term.

Ruger cylinder throats are no better or worse than some others. The newness of the gun has nothing to do with it. I assume it's due to a manufacturing process that doesn't use the same reamer on every hole, so any difference in wear on the reamers can show up in the cylinder diameters.

In the 80's I bought a Redhawk in .44 Mag that shoots about an inch and a half at 50 yards. A friend of mine was so impressed, he bought a copy. Neither of us could keep his copy on a 12" plate at 50 yards. We returned it to the factory complaining about the accuracy difference between his copy and mine. A few weeks later it came back with a shop slip carbon showing they had reamed the cylinders. It shot much better after that. Around 2¼" at 50 yards, which was good enough to make my friend happy.

[Mike / Tx]

Jeff,

If you have a local gunshop around which carries the latest Speer manual, head down there and look in the back of the 454 loads. There you will find data that you can use with these bullets to load in your 454 cases.

This data is listed for the RCBS 45 270 bullet. The weight is 270grs when cast of #2 alloy. You can use the starting load data with your bullets and work up from there. It has a few more options for what your looking to do.

As for leading, you can study these pics on what your barrel should and shouldn't look like,

Good....


NOT good at all....


Now these were from two different revolvers, but both are Redhawk's. The first one is my 45 Colt and at the time of the picture had over a hundred rounds through it since it was cleaned.

The second one however is from my 41 magnum. This is what happens when you drive cast bullets harder than the alloy can handle. This was only 4 shots!!

So when you get to the range, take you a piece of white paper along. Make SURE you have cleaned ALL of the copper fouling out of your barrel. After your first shot open the cylinder, insert the white paper up against the back of the frame there just in front of the firing pin, and hold it so that it lights up with the available light as you inspect your bore. If it looks like the "GOOD" pic, shoot two rounds and repeat. If it shows any signs of looking like the second pic after the first or third shots, then stop shooting them, you will need to adjust your loads.

Now some barrels will foul to a point and stop. However with the 454, your already loading to pressures higher than most other calibers, just the nature of the beast. Also remember that shooting too hard of a bullet to softly is actually as bad and sometimes worse than shooting too soft of a bullet to fast.

I use AA-9 as one of my main powders in my Raging Bull 454 as it is clean burning and doesn't produce as much flash as 2400 or H110/296. I use straight air cooled wheel weight alloy in 90% of my loads and the top end ones I use a GC on the same alloy. I haven't seen any leading in that particular revolver other than in the ports on the top of the muzzle.

Give those loads a try, but inspect as I mention above. The biggest issue with leading is the first shot lays down some. No way around that. The second shot should leave it basically the same condition as the first. IF it leaves more, then the third round comes along and the barrel is not smaller than it was on the previous shot and pressure jumps and it also leaves some behind. Same with the next and the next, they continue to raise pressures as the bore is getting compacted with the lead from previous shots.

So since your so NEW to all of this I am simply pointing out a few things from my experiences with cast to you so that you will have an idea of what to look for and when to stop and go clean.

Also, and I know this may raise some hairs, but DO NOT get into a practice of shooting jacketed through your barrel before cleaning the lead out or using jacketed to "SHOOT" the lead out. This is simply a bad practice on so many levels not to mention having 40 to 60K of pressure in your hands when you attempt it. Just use your head and common sense and clean it out.

If you DO get leading, check around your local grocery stores and see if any of them carry the all copper brand Chore Boy scouring pads. If so make sure they are all copper using a small refrigerator magnet before you purchase them. If the magnet sticks look elsewhere. If you find some simply cut or pull enough off to wrap around a bore brush, pour a little penetrating oil or cleaning solvent on it and scrub away.

Post back up and let us know how those work for you. If you have issues don't sweat them we will help you through.

Oh one little trick you can do before you go. After you have thoroughly cleaned the copper out of your barrel, if you have some Johnson's or similar paste wax handy, you might slather down a cleaning patch wrapped around a bristle brush with some and apply a light coat to the bore of your revolver. I do this every time I clean mine with Johnson's Paste Wax or Alox which is a bullet lube. It just gives that first round something else besides bare metal to ride on as it heads out the muzzle.

[Jeff2131]

ALL great info everyone...thankyou. much appreciated. I always try and put safety first so if there is any question of leading or over pressure signs i will stop immediately. Ill be sure to bring.some cleaning.supplies and.tools with me to inspect and.clean while im there. Its at 6 and im usually there until atleast 11 so i have plenty of time to take my time and document the results for you guys. Ill make.sure to take some pics too. Hoping this all works out because.i also have .501 dia bullets that someone.wants me to load for their S&W500! If theres issues with my 454, i may decline to reload for the 500. Ive done.jacketed barnes xpb bullets for the 500 with amazing.results but this lead stuff has me nervous right now.

On a side note...i was told the super redhawk can handle pressures in the 90,000psi range....anyone else heard this before. And just an FYI, i would NEVER put that to the test. HA!

[TimSr]

Mike, I was just wondering if the new Speer manuals had cast data? Used to be the only lead the referenced was for their own soft cold swage bullets that they wouldn't even give magnum loadings for. In the past I found Lyman's to have the best cast bullet data, as they are in the casting supply business as well. Don't know if thats changed.

[Mike / Tx]

The manual really doesn't have much if any other cast info in it, like you said mostly their own soft cold swage bullets. However they DID include this one particular bullet in the back of their 454 load data. I guess since the whole famdamily all belong to the same group they didn't mind. Under the data is even a note that says they do not make molds but did include this data for users of it, or something along those lines.

[Jeff2131]

First off...very impressed! Very very minimal leading after 30rnds.

250gr RNFP cast lead lubed no gas check
28.5gr imr4227
Cci small rifle primer
Starline case

http://s911.photobucket.com/user/jef...68l3r.jpg.html


all went well, no tumbling, bullet stayed together, and was very accurate at 25ft.
There was one minor issue that id like to resolver...there was alot of unburnt powder in my cylinders and barrel. Wondering if i should drop the charge to 27.5 and us a SR magnum primer. Any suggestions to eliminate the unburnt powder issue? id consider a different powder but i have three pounds of imr4227 that i bought specifically for the cassul and s&w500 reloads.