.45 ACP +P vs. 10mm

[Maromero]

It's not on point but you get a good idea.
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/10mm.html

[07pats]

Forget the Glocks - more than one person has told you that

[totaldla]

Originally Posted by webleymk4

Why not? The original Norma 10mm loadings propelled a 200grn bullet at 1200fps from a 5" barrel

The following 10mm performance is what I don't believe. Not for a G29.

Originally Posted by wilkup

Here's the rounds, from Buffalo Bore:
.45 ACP +P Ammo - 255 gr. Hard Cast FN (925 fps/M.E. 484 ft. lbs.)
Heavy 10mm Ammo - 220 gr. Hard Cast - FN (1,200 fps/ME 703 ft. lbs.)

I think people should be careful fantasizing the 10mm into something it is not.

[Webleymkv]

The following 10mm performance is what I don't believe. Not for a G29.

OK, I thought you weren't believing Double Tap's claim of 200grn at 1100fps from a G29. I don't believe that Buffalo Bore is getting 220grn at 1200fps from a G29 either, and neither does Buffalo Bore. Their 1200fps velocity claim is from a 5" 1911 barrel according to their website. I'd expect something more like 1100fps from a G29.

[cuba]

I think that if I had to shot from a glock pistol at a charging cougar that I would prefer the 10mm from a stock gun but if you increase the springs the 45 super is a superior round 10mm 180gr @1220 595 ftlbs the 45 super 185gr @1300 695 ftlbs.

But as a woods pistol I think I would drop a Clark 460 Rowland conversion on my 1911 for $300 and really have a round I could depend on. The 460 Rowland will generate 185gr JHP @1500fps-971ftlbs or a 200grJHP @ 1450 750 ftlbs and maybe even drop the bear that's chasing the cougar lol

Cuba

[20nickels]

Buy the .45 and get the 10mm barrel.

[Alaska444]

The issue really boils down to whether you can get a combined woods gun and concealed carry out of the same weapon given the two competing purposes. If you are in the Snoqualmie area, you may want to consider the very evident fact that the grizzly reintroduction is producing outlier explorers in the Idaho panhandle area. In 2007, a young male was shot in error by a black bear hunter below I 90 near Kelly Creek. In June of 2009, another grizzly was shot in Rose Lake, only 20 miles from Coeur d'Alene and that was also south of the I 90. If you look at the distribution of grizzly bear in the Cascades, I would make the assumption that not only mountain lions and black bears are in the Snoqualmie area, but you certainly cannot exclude the larger grizzly as well. Their population is growing immensely in the last two decades.

In such, the issue of .45 acp really becomes a non issue since even a .44 mag is woefully inadequate for many grizzly bears. The 10 mm has similar ballistics to high powered .357 rounds for comparison which few would consider the best woods hand gun, but it is certainly better than having nothing.

It should also be noted that in California, even though there are no grizzlies at this time, black bears in this area have been recorded as high as 700 pounds with one report I heard of a black bear in the San Gabriels reaching 800 pounds. For these reasons, the thought of using a .45 acp as a woods gun is really a moot issue as far as I am concerned anywhere in the west. If no other choice, 10 mm will buy you more killing power but even this is at the lower end of a real woods gun.

[Alaska444]

Just as a follow up to my post, the North American black bear record is actually almost 900 pounds in North Carolina.

http://www.bearlife.org/black-bear.html

For a woods gun, .357 is really the minimum as well as 10 mm with both with fairly similar ballistics when consider the higher end loads. For the two legged creatures in cities, .45 acp is more than adequate. Having looked into the issue for myself, I don't see much over lap between personal protection in cities vs a woods gun. The .45 acp as good a record as it has in personal defense is not going to get you the impact you need in the woods with every possible situation you could find yourself in. Just what is running around in the Pacific Northwest at this time? I would definitely treat Snoqualmie as a grizzly area in considering what to carry with you. The average 150 pound mountain lion could readily be stopped by a .45 acp, but is that all that you could encounter in these woods?

[bbrian]

"I was recently stalked by a cougar while on a hike with my girlfriend..."

Wow, that's one aggressive cougar. Most will only flirt a little if you are with a girlfriend. Was the cougar smoking a cigarette and drinking a martini?

[christcorp]

I agree that the 45acp isn't really a good "Woods" gun. In those situations, I bring a 357 magnum. Would I own a 10mm? No, not going to happen. I'm not into reloading that much any longer, and the 10mm is a dying caliber. Difficult to find ammo for and expensive when you do. Then again, I would never get a 45gap or 357sig either. I prefer "common" calibers. Calibers that I can buy ammo in bulk. I buy 45acp 230 grain LRN for $11.99 a box. It's a no brainer. I don't want a niche cartridge that isn't practical. Yes, it's unique, and some people go for unique. I want practical.

If I could only have, or could only afford to have 1 pistol/caliber in my life, that gun/caliber would be a 357 magnum revolver. Once you can afford, and choose to have, more than 1 gun/caliber, then things change. But your FIRST gun, or if it's your ONLY gun, it should be the 357 magnum revolver. It can do anything you want it to. The only drawback is for those who for some reason believe they need a high capacity magazine. But except for magazine count, a 357 magnum can have ammo as light or as heavy as you want. It can do and out do, all other calibers as low as a 380 and beyond what a 45acp can do. Including the 10mm, 40sw, 9mm, 44 spl, and even 41 magnum.

[Tommy69Z]

My vote is for the .45, but I am kind of biased since I own 3, plus I hardly ever see 10mm ammo on the counters

[Alaska444]

I agree with Christcorp about the .357 which I already own. I would have gone with the .44 but I have to shoot my handguns one handed. I can control the .357 easily with one hand and I am told that you can likewise shoot the .44 one handed but that is quite recoil with it.

I am actually going to get a .45 acp but for personal defense, but not as a woods gun. If all you could encounter is creatures in the 150 pound range it would be adequate. You should choose a weapon designed for the situation. A heavy and very slow bullet with little penetration into an animal like a bear is not likely to hit any vital organs on a COM shot. To be able to hit the CNS with an animal charging is a very lucky shot that you could not count on especially under the pressure of such a situation where you will be lucky just to hit the creature. Considering these issues, would you really want to be underpowered in the woods?

[Nevmavrick]

You're comfortable with the Glock...keep it. Also..KISS.
Don't overload with all the extras. Extra magazines, fancy holsters, and "trick" ammo are of no real use.
Cougars are small animals, most around 150-180 pounds...about the size of a two-legged predator. The primary difference between a BUG and the cat is their attitude. A BUG will change their mind as soon as you give resistance. Unless on drugs(alcohol included) to alter perception, when the noise starts, there are better places to be...especially if there is blood already involved. Practice 'til you auto-matically make 'em bleed.
Many cat hunters-guides use a .22 or .22Mag and have no problem dropping cats. I'm not saying USE a .22, I'm saying that a 10mm OR .45 will be more than plenty. If you have to use it, don't shoot then observe...keep shooting until the situation is over, one way or the other.
Just practice 'til YOU know you're good with your chosen equipment.
A .45 doesn't NEED +P, it is effective because it makes a BIG hole. Don't worry, it breaks bones, and the target leaks! Use +P if it makes you feel better, but all it does is increase wear on the gun. Practice with what you'll use.
The main "claim to fame" of the 10mm is deep penetration. It breaks bones just fine, and the looong holes, with probably complete penetration, bleed well, too. Kinetic energy, in and of itself doesn't mean much, but destruction of important parts, and loss of blood, do.
Practice putting holes in important places, rapidly. Oh, yeah...practice starting like you'll be when you get into the scenario. If you wear a long-sleeve shirt with a large backpack, practice that way. If you wear a small "day pack" and shorts, practice that way!
Remember, a "double tap" is NOT what you want...you want two aimed shots fired quickly.(two or MORE)
Handloading? IF you want to, and have enough space, and time...by all means do so, but the money spent on equipment could be spent on ammo for practice. It would appear by going to websites that cater to reloaders, that EVERYBODY reloads, and it's really cheap. Not so. It can be a royal pain, because there are a LOT of things you can, and can't, do. You will have to learn what.
That being said, I've been reloading since I was 12 years old! I'm 62!
When I started, I told my mom that I'd be saving money. HA!
I used to load so I could shoot...now I shoot so I can reload. It's become a sport in itself.
Oh, yeah...Did I mention practice??? In a situation, you will react as you are trained, so train as you want to act.
Have fun,
Gene

[drrpg01]

I wouldn't choose 10mm for CCW. Over-penetration would be a HUGE concern.

[Nevmavrick]

What do I carry? When I could encounter something larger than a cougar, I've got a M58 S&W .41 Mag on my hip, loaded with max-loaded SWCs. If I feel that cougars are the max, such as the trees...The load is a 170gr lead bullet at about the same as a .40 or 10mm.
Other times I carry a 1911 full-frame .45.
I feel quite comfortable with either.
Have fun,
Gene

[Ticonderoga]

drrpg01:

"I wouldn't choose 10mm for CCW. Over-penetration would be a HUGE concern."

- The FBI pretty much called the "problem" of overpenetration a myth. They couldn't find many (if any) fatalities as a result. But this view changed my mind: over 1/2 of all rounds (police & civie) miss in gunfights. A .40 that misses will penetrate a he'll of a lot more than any overpenetrating 10mm.

[BGutzman]

http://460rowland.com/

It ends the debate between 9mm vs 45 and in this case would be available in more powerful options than 10mm or 45 +p+.

You might me able to get a drop in for your model of pistol.. Im not sure Im not a glock guy but my Springfield XD conversion rocks... Nothing like 44 magnum power in a semi auto...

[481]

Originally Posted by wilkup:

.45 ACP +P Ammo - 255 gr. Hard Cast FN (925 fps/M.E. 484 ft. lbs.)
Heavy 10mm Ammo - 220 gr. Hard Cast - FN (1,200 fps/ME 703 ft. lbs.)

Since the rounds that you are looking at function by providing deep penetration, the issue of choosing the one that suits your needs the best (bear? big cats?) is easily answered by using a bullet penetration model to determine how much penetration they'll offer against soft tissue. (Obviously, if heavy bone is hit, the situation changes)

For example, using the Schwartz bullet penetration model, the .45 ACP 255 gr HCFN @ 925 fps would penetrate to a depth of 30.98" whereas the 10mm 220 gr HCFN @ 1,200 fps would penetrate to a depth of 40.97".

Which one appeals to you more?

[crazycrave]

The 10mm may pen 10" deeper then the 45acp but the 45acp is making a much bigger hole ..

I would feel safe carring a 45acp into the wood because i have more then one shot.. now bigfoot may need a 50cal.

[sgn100391]

The 10mm may pen 10" deeper then the 45acp but the 45acp is making a much bigger hole ..

So you're saying a person shot by 300 Win Mag has a higher chance of survival than a person shot with a 45 acp given they are shot at the same area of the body? Concluding the fact that the 300 Win Mag makes a smaller hole compared to 45acp.

[9mmhpfan]

I am wondering if you actually saw that Cougar, was it really stalking you at all. Outside of Special Operators, big cats are one of the most stealthy creatures on planet earth. The only show themselves to their intended prey or give away their presence until most of the time it is too late for the prey to make an effective get a way. My wife and I went to a wildlife refuge once and we were riding in an open sided bus and the driver stopped at the White Tiger's compound. The driver/guide told us that the tiger hated that bus and in a flash the tiger had shot out of his hiding hole and ran the length of the compound and back before anyone knew what was going on. He let out a roar that made you blood run cold and I looked at my wife and said" If I had a 12 guage loaded and ready to go pointed at the opening of his hiding place, I was not sure I could have gotten a round of before he shot out of that hole. I think the only warning you will have that you are about to be attacked is the few seconds it takes for a Puma to get from where it is at to where you are. Instead of a handgun, I would opt for a good riot shotgun and a bowie knife, however that is just me.

[testuser]

I vote for the 10mm for many of the reasons above...including greater penetration with less recoil coupled with a higher energy level, which also means a flatter trajectory. Great magazine capacity is an added bonus.

Bullet diameter counts for something, but not everything. I mean, I wouldn't take a .45 +P over the mid range loads I shoot in the .44 magnum, even if the .44 is "only" a .429...

As far as barrel lengths, no problem there, KKM and other manufacturers make 6 inch barrels for Glock pistols. Long slides are also available.

http://www.kkmprecision.com/custom_p...&cat=16&page=1

The ability to easily convert the G20 to .40 S&W is also a plus, since all that's required is a barrel change and sometimes a lighter spring.

[claimbuster]

I carry my 10 sometimes in the woods, but feel better with a light 44 Special with heavy loads, and feel better yet with a light 41 Mag and heavier loads. My 44 Mag is too heavy to go hiking unless I can pull my wagon.

[Rainbow Demon]

There have been a number of Cougar attacks on humans in recent years, but the Cougar doesn't normally hunt humans so a man killer is likely to act in an atypical manner.
They seem to have a taste for hikers and cyclists, though they may just as easily show up in your backyard in broad daylight.

Best way to drop a hyped up predator is to cut his spinal cord.
Brain shots are fine, but the skull structure of predators can be misleading, and coupled with difficulty in hitting a moving target you can put a bullet through the eye yet miss the brain case entirely.
This is especially so when it comes to Black Bear. The brain of the Blackie sits far lower in the head than that of any other breed of bear. The brain case is narrow and theres nothing much behind the eye socket other than soft tissue. A straight through shot to the eye won't touch the brain case.
Since bears commonly wallop the heck out of each other with blows that can break a steer's back, impact on soft tissue alone may not even stun an enraged Blackie.

A 500+lb Blackie killed a young girl not far from here several years back. during the attack a female officer emptied her .380 off duty piece into its back and head with no effect.

Large predators often have teeth stout enough to deflect a light rifle or pistol bullet.

Smaller Blackies may be dropped with a .32 S&W in the right place. The grandfather of a friend used to walk right up to them and trick them into standing, then plug them once in the pump with his .32 hand ejector.

[Redhawk5.5+P+]

OP

March 23, 2010, 11:41 AM

10mm wins

Time to go back to school kid's.