weapon lights

[JohnKSa]

I can still hear Drill Sgt. Perez:

"Go on night patrol....turn on your light....get you whole squad killed.
Light discipline saves lives."

Military tactics, for a variety of reasons, are not always directly applicable to civilian deadly force scenarios.

Even assuming, for the sake of argument, that there are viable situations in the military where one might shoot without identifying a target as a certain threat, that kind of thing is not acceptable in civilian self-defense.

Drill Sgt. Perez won't be there to provide legal counsel nor to serve your sentence.

[peacefulgary]

When it comes to a home invasion, I'll take my chances with my training rather than the fairy tale mentality that one will be able to use a flashlight and not get shot in the process.

[Crow Hunter]

rather than the fairy tale mentality that one will be able to use a flashlight and not get shot in the process.

Apparently these instructors are really named Grimm....

There are lots of others who do low light training, all of them REQUIRE a light as part of the training.

Good luck man.

http://eagtactical.com/coursedetails.asp?ListID=9

Course Description
Pistol 2 is a fighting class. It builds on the previous skill sets, with the emphasis on rapid, multiple hits on single and multiple targets, shooting on the move and strong hand / weak hand unsupported shooting. It will include a lowlight shoot on TD1.
A previous Pistol 1 or equivalent class is mandatory.


Equipment


A serviceable pistol revolver, .38 Special / 9x19mm or larger
5 magazines / speed loaders
750 rounds of serviceable ammunition

A strong side hip holster. Inside the waistband holsters, shoulder holsters and fanny bags are not permitted
A magazine pouch to hold at least two magazines
Serviceable flashlight with spare batteries and bulbsEye and ear pro
Baseball type hat
Sunscreen
Clothing appropriate for the season
Full payment is requested 30 days prior to the class date, unless other arrangements have been made


In accordance with International Traffic in Arms (ITAR) Regulations, only U.S. Citizens will be accepted to participate in E.A.G. Tactical courses.

http://www.thunderranchinc.com/courses.html

Handgun Course Equipment:
Clients should have eye (for day and dark) and ear protection. A good holster, belt and magazine carrier, which is properly threaded thru belt loops on your trousers or pants. Knee and elbow protection are a good idea. Two flashlights and spare batteries. A spare handgun is a good idea but not mandatory. Six to eight speed loaders or magazines. A hat, neck scarf and sun screen. A small bag to carry all your stuff in is handy. Clothing for seasonal weather at 5000 to 6000 foot elevation.

[Father Time]

fairy tale mentality that one will be able to use a flashlight and not get shot in the process

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNcrysTdKKc

I don't know what your training is. And I haven't meet you. So forgive me if I feel more inclined to listen to the advice of Larry Vickers over yours.



As for military training. Well the military has a funny way of being "all or nothing" when it comes to idea's, equipment and training. Its mainly because the people in charge don't give the average troop much credit in the common sense area.

Like how they banned Polymer mags (to eleminate soldiers from useing less than reliabe tapco's and such) but it also banned P-Mags one of the best magazine's for the AR platforme around.

[FAS1]

I always have a flashlight handy, but don't use any weapons mounted lights myself. I know more and more people do. About 30% of my sales are for that market and it's been growing about 10% a year from my personal experience.

I'm comfortable with my decision, but one day I might just have to update my G17 (Gen2) to one with a rail.

[ltc444]

A hand held flashlight is essential part of your defense package. I continue to use my Mag lite. I have practiced shooting with in blackout conditions.

When I check the house I turn it on only when I am targeting a particular place or thing.

My wife on the other hand is not trained, (does not wish to train) to use a separate flashlight while shooting. There fore we have mounted a flashlight on the Mossberg. The flashlight is activated by squeezing a pressure switch on the pump. The flashlight is mounted so that the center of the beam is bulls eye. Her procedure is to assume a defensive posture in the safe room and wait. Should someone enter the room with out identifying them-self she shoots.

Needless to say I DO NOT sneak up on her and scare her as a joke. A practice I learned when my wife stuck a rifle in my face when I came home late at night and tried not to wake her. We had had an attempted break in while I was at work.

[wpsdlrg]

The debate on this will go on forever. Ultimately, NO one can "rule" on whether a gun-mounted light is better....or not. The ONLY thing that can definitively decide that, in the end, is direct experience. I think that none of us want that sort of experience, if we can help it. So, we all have to make the best guess we can. As such, we have NO basis to say that the other fellow is wrong on this.

As for myself, I prefer a separate light. I am not comfortable with hanging anything on the front of the gun, or exposing the location of my torso behind the light, IN CASE a BG managed to get a shot (or several) off with the light as the POA. The point about the blinding effect is well taken, but not foolproof. In some situations, such as checking around corners, I do NOT believe that a gun-mounted light is a good idea. However, that is simply MY choice - only my OPINION.

What others choose to do is theirs to decide. What I hope for is that everyone is successful with their choice - whatever it is.

[Marquezj16]

My issued M4 had a surefire light mounted to it. Used it in training for clearing/positive ID stuff. But never used it during night qualifications. For that, we had NVG and high tech laser. Shooting with that set up is like cheating.

[LockedBreech]

I use a 1913-mounted Streamlight TLR-1S on my Beretta PX4 nightstand gun. For me, personally, the risks of muzzle sweeping are more than made up for by positive target ID.

My Beretta also has a 10-pound DA trigger pull and I have good trigger discipline, which helps.

Like most things SD and HD related, it is a decision that relies most heavily in your comfort levels and what works best for you.

[pete2]

Not gonna make a target of myself.

[allaroundhunter]

Originally Posted by pete2

Not gonna make a target of myself.

Does that mean that you are not going to use a weapon mounted light, or not going to use a light at all (even a handheld one)?

Sent from my HTC One X

[pete2]

May have to use a flash light but it will not be mounted on the gun. It would be scary to use a light of any kind but you must identify the target. Hopefully, there would be enough light without the flashlight. It's seldom pitch black in my house.

[allaroundhunter]

Originally Posted by pete2

May have to use a flash light but it will not be mounted on the gun. It would be scary to use a light of any kind but you must identify the target. Hopefully, there would be enough light without the flashlight. It's seldom pitch black in my house.

Agreed.


For those saying that a weapon mounted light will draw fire and use that as a reason not to use one: You cannot hold a handheld flashlight far enough away from your body to be safe from rounds that may be fired back at the light. Just because the light is to the side of your body instead of in front of it does not mean that bullets won't be coming close enough to hit you.



Sent from my HTC One X

[marine6680]

Think the one guy left...

The way I see it:

If hunkering down in the bedroom is not an option. (kids)

1)Have a very bright light handy. Gun or handheld as you prefer.
2)Learn proper clearing and movement and use of cover in buildings. (this reduces your profile as a potential target to the intruder)
3)Use ambient light to your advantage, and be aware of back lighting.
4)The light is only for identifying purposes after the threat is located... Or to be used when available ambient lighting is not sufficient to locate the intruder. (dark corners/rooms with no windows, light/etc) Keeping in mind proper clearing and cover when using the light.
5)When using the light it should be on for quick bursts of about 1/4 second or less, but long enough to get a quick bearing and initial identification.
6)When the light turns off, immediately move away from your position.
7)When/if the intruder is located his initial awareness to your presence will dictate your actions. A quick burst of light can temporarily blind and disorientate the person. Combined with quickly moving from position after the flash of light keeps you out of the path of any rounds fired randomly at the last location of the light, if any should come. If their back is turned, it may take two flashes of light to blind them, as they will need to turn to face the light.
8)Determine the intruders hostility and apply force as needed.

By that point, you should know if the intruder is armed and a direct threat. They should be confused and disorientated enough that you can more effectively use lethal force if needed. Sustained application of light directly to the eyes can be helpful to gain compliance from unarmed or non-aggressive intruders. If you are unsure, then act as you feel is best.


The "deserves to die" or "deserves to be treated as a deadly threat" argument is highly flawed one...

No one can claim the moral superiority to truly determine who deserves life or death.

The person in your home could be a poor and desperate father looking for quick money to feed his children and not out to hurt someone... Does that excuse his actions of breaking and entering? No... Does he deserve death? Probably not.

While I applaud the castle doctrine... I can never advocate shooting anyone who is unarmed and unwilling to fight/harm me. Attacking an unarmed person is generally seen as a cowardly or un-honorable thing to do. (unless they are attacking you directly with fists) So you must do your best to not only preserve your safety, but also avoid unneeded death.

Could anyone really live with themselves if they killed an unarmed person?

Soldiers shoot combatants who are actively trying to kill them, and they often still have mental issues over it after.

The use of deadly force is not about "deserves", attack, or vengeance (against the perceived attack).

Its all about the practical... your desire to be/stay safe. Your emotions/personal feelings about thieves, criminals, murderers, etc etc... they have no bearing on the practicalities of defending yourself.

Use of deadly force should be seen as an unfortunate necessity... not an absolute... and certainty not in a position of moral certitude that absolves you of all wrong/sin/evil/guilt... whether the law clears your actions or not.

[45_auto]

Just because the light is to the side of your body instead of in front of it does not mean that bullets won't be coming close enough to hit you.

Interesting theory. Try this simple experiment next time you're at the range:

1) Put a target in front of you and shoot at it. Hopefully you'll have some holes in the target. We'll call this target #1. This simulates shooting at a light directly in front of someone.

2) Put up another target approximately 2 feet to the right of target #1. We'll call this target #2. This will simulate someone facing you holding a light off to their left side.

3) Tape up target #1, then shoot at target #2. Observe how many new holes you put in target #1 while shooting at target #2. Most people are capable of shooting a group much smaller than 4 feet in diameter, so the number of bullets that hit target #1 while you're shooting at target #2 will be VERY close to zero.

4) Based on the results of your test, make an informed decision on whether you would prefer bullets coming towards you to be coming straight at you or bullets coming towards you to be 2 feet off to one side.

[allaroundhunter]

45 auto, I know that I can avoid putting bullet holes in a target that is two feet away from my intended target at the range. The fact that you are trying to use that as a valid comparison to a low-light gunfight concerns me if you are actually being serious.

You expect an untrained person (the person entering your home) to only hit within a few inches of your light? If that is the expectation then there is nowhere that this conversation can go because frankly, that is just illogical.

Also, notice that I did not say the person with the light held off of their body will be hit the same amount of times as the person that has a weapon mounted light. I did not even reference a percentage of rounds that I would expect to hit because you cannot give an accurate guess in this type of situation. My statement was simply that having a handheld light held away from your body is not going to keep you from getting shot. Nothing more, nothing less. If you say that you choose to use a weapon mounted light because it draws fire in your direction, news-flash: so does a handheld light.

Sent from my HTC One X

[Slopemeno]

I'll share a story. I used to play a lot of paintball back in the late 80's and early 90's. I got invited to a night game a group of guys were having at a spot called "The Network" which was about 60 acres of Manzanita and Madrone, with trails (hence- "The Network") running everywhere like a spiderweb. It was a double canopy, so it was dark in there. I'd played quite a bit of night paintball before, but never at this field.

I brought my old, beat 5-cell maglight and was zip-tying it to the forend of my Autococker while the other team stood by, muttering "just shoot at the light- shoot at the light".

How did it work out? I instantly became a fan of weapon lights. The ability to momentarily blind someone,identify them, fire five or six times, and them scurry away into the dark was amazing. Now, I realize I didn't have to turn on house lights or open doors, but I was crawling on my knees, sliding under bushes, etc. The ability to have your vision, weapon, and light in the same plane really lowers the workload (as I'd tried a separate light previously, and indexing isn't great).

Downsides? Weight/bulk, I suppose? Having the 4" light below the bore can give you large shadows if you have to work 'over' an obstacle where someone can hide. I'd much prefer 4" over the bore. You have to be careful to not turn on the light until you're really clear of the barricade or you'll wash out your own night vision.

[Father Time]

1) Put a target in front of you and shoot at it. Hopefully you'll have some holes in the target. We'll call this target #1. This simulates shooting at a light directly in front of someone.

2) Put up another target approximately 2 feet to the right of target #1. We'll call this target #2. This will simulate someone facing you holding a light off to their left side.

3) Tape up target #1, then shoot at target #2. Observe how many new holes you put in target #1 while shooting at target #2. Most people are capable of shooting a group much smaller than 4 feet in diameter, so the number of bullets that hit target #1 while you're shooting at target #2 will be VERY close to zero.

4) Based on the results of your test, make an informed decision on whether you would prefer bullets coming towards you to be coming straight at you or bullets coming towards you to be 2 feet off to one side.

Now put tape over your gun sights and try it by point shooting without looking directly at the target.
Because you won't be able to line up your sights if someone blast your with a 100+ lumen light at night.

Lets not overthink this. I'm all for having some kind of light but anything can happen.

[45_auto]

Originally Posted by father time

Now put tape over your gun sights and try it by point shooting without looking directly at the target.
Because you won't be able to line up your sights if someone blast your with a 100+ lumen light at night.

I guess that's when you find out how good your target's point shooting skills are. At inside-your-house ranges, they could easily be pretty significant. You may also want to do a little research on the flashbulb effect.

It's not real hard to find out what will happen. Attach a remotely operated light to a target. Wait until dark, flash it in someone's eyes and have them shoot at it. Count the number of times the shooter fires and the number of bullet holes in the target. Repeat until you're satisfied that you have reached a statistically valid sample size. Based on the number of bullet holes, it should be easy to determine whether you would prefer to be the target or off to one side.

You could also get some Simunitions or a couple of paint ball guns and try it if you don't want to blast a flashlight or spend the money on ammo.

Even better, take a training class.

As side note, many times it's more practical to use the silohoutte of your slide as a reference rather than the sights in low-light conditions.

It's really surprising how many people out there are serious about self defense but have never had any training or done a night shoot.

Good article here on low light techniques:

http://pistol-training.com/articles/...ght-essentials

The most critical thing I can tell you at this point is that YOU MUST TRAIN DILLIGENTLY WITH EACH OF THESE TECHNIQUES TO HAVE ANY HOPE OF USING THEM UNDER STRESS. You cannot practice it once and get it down pat. Using a light in conjunction with a handgun is DIFFICULT and it WILL NOT come easy. You need to spend LOTS OF TIME practicing these techniques with an empty weapon inside a structure and also with live fire on the range.

Weapon lights are useful in only in certain narrow circumstances. If you have to have your weapon out for clearing a structure or if you need it pointed at somebody a weapon light is a good thing…but that’s not an appropriate action for the majority of circumstances. Naturally you can’t go around pointing firearms at suspicious situations so depending on a weapon light as your ONLY light is a really bad idea.

Training – General principles of white light use

It has been said multiple times by this point but it bears repeating now: White light is a target indicator. Whenever you use it you are exposing yourself to whatever is out there in the dark potentially waiting to hurt you.

[Father Time]

My point was its very difficult to shoot at a target that you cannot look directly at.

Aiming down the slide is still looking at the target. A bright white light on your end be it hand held or weapon mounted may prevent the target from being able to aim at you.

A light won't deflect bullets but it can be an advantige if employed properly.


Here is an off topic point. I do practice shooting pistols with my off hand only. But I only point shoot when doing so. If the situation is dire enough that I'm useing only my weak hand to shoot then speed will be the name of the game.

[45_auto]

A bright white light on your end be it hand held or weapon mounted may prevent the target from being able to aim at you.

If you think it's some kind of bullet-deflecting magic shield, that's your call.

The only real night shootout I was present at involved a car. It's headlights (I believe auto lights are 1500 lumens or so each) were taken out in the first couple of rounds. At least one person (there were 2) directly in front of the lights had no trouble hitting them.

[Father Time]

If you think it's some kind of bullet-deflecting magic shield, that's your call.

Really? Are you trolling me?

I just said:
A light won't deflect bullets but it can be an advantige if employed properly


You are either intentionaly trying to anger me or your not bothering to even read my post before jumping to conclusions.

[allaroundhunter]

You are either intentionaly trying to anger me or your not bothering to even read my post before jumping to conclusions.

He is promoted "testing" the theory in a way that will in no way actually test it, but I am not sure what his intentions are with that statement....I'm just going to leave it at that.

I have said my piece, as you have yours. I believe valid points have been made for both weapon mounted lights as well as handhelds, with many of the points being applicable to each. Hopefully this thread will get back on track, or get closed....because some posts are getting ridiculous...

[marine6680]

Doing some reading... From what I found.

Shooting an unarmed person in your house or on your property may negate the castle doctrine/stand your ground defense.

Every situation is different, but it does make it harder to use the legal defense of SD.

Another good reason for proper identification.