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Old May 4, 2013, 04:50 PM   #26
Tactical Jackalope
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Firepower VS Accuracy

^ yup. A bunch of us have those.
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Old May 4, 2013, 07:07 PM   #27
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Practice, practice, practice. The more you practice, the less you will have to worry god forbid you have to use your fire arm. Muscle memory will take over and you will be fine. I prefer more rounds than trying to pin point aim my self but opinions vary. In my experience, practice practice practice and you will be fine. You also need to practice with your mind and go over different scenarios that apply to your life style. Also think about after, this is the area least talked about. The police, an attorney, what you say and don't say etc. The news media, your social accounts that will be scrutinized by the police media and attorneys. Your family friends co-workers that are going to hear about your incident and all the options and Monday morning quarter backs. There is so much into carrying and using a fire arm that most people have no idea. Just my 2 cents.
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Old May 4, 2013, 09:29 PM   #28
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I was in firefights in Vietnam, not the same as a self defense situation here in the world unless you are a N.Y, cop. 18 rounds fired, 9 hits, only one on the perp tho. Best to train to make every shot count. 15 round semi auto pistols are a bad influence on everyone including cops. I saw Matt Dillon take on 3 bad guys, the 3rd guy shot Dillon and he's about good as it gets.
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Old May 5, 2013, 08:26 AM   #29
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This post just screams the old adage "you can't miss fast enough to win a gun fight"

After the smoke clears you are going to have to account for all those missed rounds, where they went, who they hit.

We aren't exempt like the NYPD cops mentioned above, hitting nine by standers to get one bandit.

Even in Afgan, it one of our soldiers hit 9 innocents to get one bad guy he'd be up for a court's marshal.

Wouldn't it be better to train to the point that accuracy is muscle memory, meaning under stress, you don't have to think about accuracy, it's just there.
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Old May 5, 2013, 09:36 AM   #30
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Wouldn't it be better to train to the point that accuracy is muscle memory, meaning under stress, you don't have to think about accuracy, it's just there.
Thats the basic idea, or at least thats my basic idea. And youre right, once you get on to it, it is there, even when moving and no sights. Of course, you do have to practice realistically, and simply shooting bullseye, isnt really going to get you there.

I remember the "cant miss fast enough" thing coming about when the capacity of guns stared going up, and the old school people felt the need to suggest that capacity wasnt necessary.

I really dont see what the correlation is, since if you cant shoot, it applies to all guns, regardless of capacity. What I dont understand is, why the malice towards capacity? Unless its just jealousy. To me, having 17 and only needing 1 or 2, is WAY better than only having 5, and needing 6 or 7. Capacity is only a hindrance, when you dont have it.

In the two articles posted above, do you believe the officers (or anyone else) would prefer to have had less ammo on board? Seems at least one of them has seen the light, and has moved further in that direction.
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Old May 5, 2013, 09:53 AM   #31
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Firepower VS Accuracy

More ammo is always better. Anyone ever been in situation?

http://youtu.be/Wu8koHqEEPo

Is a 1911 with 8 rounds good enough? A fraction of this being a possibility should be enough reason to carry more rounds.

I'm proud of these officers. Could have been way worse. We lost an officer in Miami in 2007 to a similar incident.
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Old May 5, 2013, 10:05 AM   #32
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Well we need to look at a bit of history here and look at facts.
This is a subject I am very familiar with.

I am a former US Marine, a former sheriff’s deputy and a currant firearms/combat tactics instructor.

In Vietnam it took more rounds than could easily be counted to get each enemy KIA. I can't remember the number but it was in the hundreds of thousands.
Now that was with 308 and 223 RIFLE rounds for the most part. Rifles are more powerful than pistols. Yet with 20 and 30 round magazines (more than your pistol) and also with 6-12 magazines at their finger tips, "firepower" only revealed the position of the shooter and caused them to go empty faster.
Now the USMC and US Army snipers had a different story.
I know the Marines were averaging 1.2 rounds per kill and I believe the army snipers were doing about 1.6 rounds per kill from 1965 to 1972.
They KNOW what I and others here are saying.

If given the choice between missing more rounds per minute or hitting your enemy, ALWAYS make hits
ALWAYS!
NO EXCEPTIONS!!!!
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Old May 5, 2013, 10:06 AM   #33
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Holy cow!
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Know the status of your weapon
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Maintain situational awareness
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Old May 5, 2013, 10:12 AM   #34
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A while back I was trying to find hand gun fight statistics, average rounds fired, range ect. All I found was an old 80s 90s report that said the average hand gun fight was from 5-15ft with 3-5rds exchanged. Which is about what most of the gun fights I have heard of and more of the 5-0ft range, where people actually had to fight to retain the gun or the attacker was on them before they got it out.

The average law enforcement situation seem to have more space because they have tactics that keep people they deem threats at a distance while they can draw at an advantage. The average person cannot do this and the average person in a gun fight many times has to deal with a close quarters ambush.

The average person is probably not going to be chasing bank robbers down the street shooting from every corner. They will more then likely be trying to draw and fire in sec at close range or rolling on the ground trying to retain and fire a gun.
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Old May 5, 2013, 10:14 AM   #35
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Aim Small Miss Small ,One Shot ONE Kill .
If You Spray & Pray ,All you get is misses and no hits.
PRACTICE IS THE GOLDEN RULE .
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Old May 5, 2013, 10:22 AM   #36
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In Vietnam it took more rounds than could easily be counted to get each enemy KIA.
Those counts were for "all" weapons, not just individual weapons.

Wyosmith,

I understand what youre trying to say here, but I think youre making an apples to oranges comparison in your example.
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Old May 5, 2013, 10:36 AM   #37
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If You Spray & Pray ,All you get is misses and no hits.
Theres a difference between S&P and hosing down a target.

The first simply shows a lack of training and skill, the second is a deliberate rapid fire string "into" the target, using training and skill. Big difference.

Speed and a burst of rounds, all "hits", isnt a problem for someone who practices and can shoot.

If we were standing at the range having this conversation, and since you brought it up, Id simply ask you to show me which version of the above "you" are capable of.

Practice truly is the golden rule, and how you practice is actually very important. As I said before, if you arent practicing as realistic as possible, youre not doing yourself any favors, and likely, over estimating your skill level.
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Old May 5, 2013, 10:42 AM   #38
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I'm no expert for sure. When I think of "firepower" the term "covering fire" comes to mind. No need for that in a SD situation. IMO accurracy trumps spray and pray everytime.
Even tho I have grown very fond of the 1911 platform lately I still preferre a high capacity handgun cause you can't have too many bullets. On the occasions I carry a single stack handgun I always keep a spare mag handy.
I wish I could actually train more. I do practice fairly regular at the range but am totally lacking in practicle training. I would love to spend a couple weeks at Gunsite.
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Old May 5, 2013, 05:24 PM   #39
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Philadelphia from 1998 to 2003 used 9MM guns. They were in 596 shooting incidents and fired a total of 2453 rounds, this includes dogs, accidental discharges et al. 1,665 rounds shot at civilians who were armed and only 292 of those rounds hit those civilians for an average of 18% hits per shots fired.

It is a fact that most of the officers could not recall how many shots they fired or if they hit their target, adrenaline, tunnel vision, squeezing the trigger till the gun was empty was the norm for an officer in a shooting situation. Of the 292 suspects being shot at 35 died and 116 were wounded. Over 10% of the officers questioned did not remember if they used their sights or not.

http://www.clearinghouse.net/chDocs/...-0002-0011.pdf

Shots fired at suspects at less that 5' outnumbered the number of suspects shot at over 25' away bu 6 to 1. Believe it or not the % of hits per shot fired by New York Policemen from 1990 to 2000 was around 15% and overall average of shots fired during an encounter was only 2.8 per officer. If I remember correctly the percentage of shots fired has nearly doubled per incident

iPortland Oregon had a hit rate of 43% but fired fewer shots. Must have been doing something right on the West Coast. During this time period Miami had a 34% hit rate by officers using revolvers and 25% by their officers using pistols. Might not mean much to you guys with large capacity magazines but it tell this old dinosaur that the revolver shooters took more care in placing their shots.

What scares me is hit percentage for officers shooting at suspects closer than 6' is 38% and for those over 75' the hit ratio is a dismal 1%.

http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS.pdf

The point I'm making in this long harangue is yes you need firepower but make mine bigger bullets and better shooting and not something you can fill the air with bullets in a short span of time.

In spite of the chest thumpers and their stopping power numbers you probably will not kill the bad guy and hopefully he won't kill you but your chances of making the bad guy quit shooting before you do is to put more bullets in him than he puts in you. My old coach used to tell me you don't get extra points for making your gun get empty first. Bulls eye shooting, squirrel hunting. deer hunting or boogerman at dark thirty, make your shots count and you CANNOT rely on them counting if you know you have 18 rounds available to you if you have expended all of them in a hurry.

Keep your FN 5.7MM with it's 20 or 30 round magazine, this dinosaur still opts for 8 rounds of 45 ACP. or 6 rounds of .357 magnum.
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Old May 5, 2013, 06:38 PM   #40
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In Vietnam it took more rounds than could easily be counted to get each enemy KIA. I can't remember the number but it was in the hundreds of thousands.

Now the USMC and US Army snipers had a different story
.


You're talking about something completely different. In Vietnam most of the firefights were from one tree line to another, in thick jungle where you didn't see your advisory. Snipers didn't shoot much in reality, They didn't fire unless they saw a target, much different from most infantry types.

As to civilians, even civilian LE its a different matter all together. You have to account for those missed shots.
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Old May 5, 2013, 06:45 PM   #41
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If you are not making positive hits it does not matter what caliber you are shooting. Always choose the gun you shoot best with.
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Old May 5, 2013, 07:10 PM   #42
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"Fire fight"? Really? Are you in LE or a gangster? How many CCW holders have been in a "fire fight"?

Sorry, but training and shot placement is what civilians should be working on IMO.

I agree 100% with this post
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Old May 5, 2013, 07:18 PM   #43
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Firepower VS Accuracy

Quote:
Originally Posted by WVsig View Post
If you are not making positive hits it does not matter what caliber you are shooting. Always choose the gun you shoot best with.
Darn. I shoot my 1911's the best. Too bad they're strictly range guns to me.

Under stress, I'm tuned to SIG Sauer and Glock. That external safety on the 1911 is something I'm not going to attempt again in training under stress.

So I guess that's why I shoot it so well at the range and probably would be crappy with it otherwise.


I carry a Glock 19 for its capacity, weight, how well I shoot it, and simplicity.

Guess to tune your quote to my situation, always choose the gun you shoot best with in all situations.
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Old May 5, 2013, 07:21 PM   #44
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I'm with ya C, the G19 is usually the one on me for exactly the reasons you stated.
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Old May 5, 2013, 07:30 PM   #45
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Firepower VS Accuracy

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Originally Posted by arch308 View Post
I'm with ya C, the G19 is usually the one on me for exactly the reasons you stated.
You're my boy blue!

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Old May 5, 2013, 10:24 PM   #46
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Firepower VS Accuracy

The goal is to stop the threat. We all agree on that.

In the real world, that means getting as many hits as it takes, fast enough to keep you from getting hurt or killed. How many hits it will take is a big variable. Most of the time, it doesn't take a lot. Some of the time, it takes many. That should all be common knowledge.

My preference is to train for accuracy with speed, and to have enough rounds on tap to account for flukes or curveballs.
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Old May 6, 2013, 04:42 PM   #47
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Train to make hits, I read somewhere that 3 hits would usually stop the threat even if a .22 was used but you gotta hit the target. Spray and pray doesn't cut it.
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Old May 7, 2013, 03:55 PM   #48
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Yea what pete2. said
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Old May 7, 2013, 04:12 PM   #49
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One should attempt to be as tactically accurate as possible, no matter the size of the magazine. Not really understanding the question.

I've read the old NY police stat of one in three rounds hitting, but lets say one in four. Now lets say that it takes an average of three rounds to stop an aggressor. Thats twelve rounds for one aggressor. Less if you shoot better than "can't hit a barn with a van" me.
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Old May 9, 2013, 09:53 AM   #50
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Very entertaining, these threads always are.
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